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SIN IS NO CAUSE OF REPROBATION - John Bunyan
- Thread starter Mark Osgatharp
- Start date
Can you show me a middle voice verb in the verse? "to gar fronhma thv sarkov yanatov to de fronhma tou pneumatov zwh kai eirhnh."
How do you get "for the mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the spirit is life and peace" equal "they set their minds themselves?"
Mt 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
This "UNSAVED" young man was "SEEKING GOD", so your "premise" that only the "SAVED/CALLED" seek God, clearly is refuted by scripture.
Isa 55:6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
One of the problem with Calvin's doctrine is that it is based wholly upon conditions under the NT, the OT Saints didn't have an "INDWELLING COMFORTER" to call them, they relied upon the "prophets" to teach them, and the "CHOICE" to obey/disobey was made without the presents of the "Comforter" CALLING.
Ec 4:1 So I returned, and considered all the oppressions that are done under the sun: and behold the tears of such as were oppressed, and they had no comforter; and on the side of their oppressors there was power; but they had no comforter.
"HUMAN NATURE" doesn't change from the OT to the NT.
Hello Mark Osgatharp. You are going to like this. 
I haven't read all the posts, I'll get round to it tomorrow but for now here is my reply to your first post.
A Ray? Tyrant King. Can you believe what He says? No of course not as He has not revealed it to you. He says that even if you were innocent still you would need mercy because innocence and guilt are not the defining things in Heaven and Hell but God's choice alone before anyone did right or wrong.
I like yer nerve. The decree to damn was not taken in regard to their sin. The same with the Children of God, they are not saved because of their works but chosen before the creation of the world, kept safe by God, regenerated by the One that created them as sinners and guilty for Adam's sin and the things God causes us to do.
Job 9:20 Even if I were innocent, my mouth would condemn me; if I were blameless, it would pronounce me guilty.
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. Rom 9:15-16.
john.
I haven't read all the posts, I'll get round to it tomorrow but for now here is my reply to your first post.
It is not a philosophy but correct Theology. God in His Sovereignty chose some to be with Him and the others He chose to grow for Hell. Are you saying He cannot o man? Do you speak back to God?
Strange that? What book have you been reading from? He is The Despot man.
A Ray? Tyrant King. Can you believe what He says? No of course not as He has not revealed it to you. He says that even if you were innocent still you would need mercy because innocence and guilt are not the defining things in Heaven and Hell but God's choice alone before anyone did right or wrong.A mere man judges the Almighty with impunity? Cool.
I like yer nerve. The decree to damn was not taken in regard to their sin. The same with the Children of God, they are not saved because of their works but chosen before the creation of the world, kept safe by God, regenerated by the One that created them as sinners and guilty for Adam's sin and the things God causes us to do. Job 9:20 Even if I were innocent, my mouth would condemn me; if I were blameless, it would pronounce me guilty.
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. Rom 9:15-16.
Not very nice are you? We are all the same don't you know? Don't you know that it is folly to hate your neighbour while you preach your tirades against the Lord of Lords and the Despot of Despots, watch your step He is not always slow to anger. I agree with Bunyan and consider him a brother of mine and a teacher of the highest end.
john.
It quite "Obvious", some don't understand "LAW" or "JUSTICE/JUDGEMENT" according "TO LAW".
Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin is death;
1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Ro 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Ro 5:20 But where sin abounded, (all the sins of the world) grace did much more abound: (toward all the world)
1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Re 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Re 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And WHOSOEVER WILL, let him take the water of life freely.
The "GIFT" is "OFFERED" to "ALL MEN", and "ANYONE" who "CLAIMS" otherwise is a "LAIR".
Ignorance is not "TRUTH".
Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin is death;
1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Ro 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Ro 5:20 But where sin abounded, (all the sins of the world) grace did much more abound: (toward all the world)
1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Re 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Re 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And WHOSOEVER WILL, let him take the water of life freely.
The "GIFT" is "OFFERED" to "ALL MEN", and "ANYONE" who "CLAIMS" otherwise is a "LAIR".
Ignorance is not "TRUTH".
Where is there anything about Esau rejecting Christ in Romans 9? "Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated" is NOT about the individual salvation of these two individuals! It is about God choosing Jacob (even though Esau, the firstborn, would have been the obvious choice) to be the one through which the nation of Israel would come. The passage where this comes from is about God's sovereignty in the history of Israel and His covenant with His people in light of His apparent "new" covenant with the Gentiles. Please read Romans 9-11 together and with an open mind. Don't take verses out of context.
Hello 4study.
Why? Because God chose some for life and some for Hell and that is that and nothing can be done about it but bend yer knee. No one gave us permission to disagree with the word of God.
Rom 9:19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, `Why did you make me like this?' " 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
It sounds very unfair I agree but ..."He is the LORD; let him do what is good in his eyes." 1 Sam 3:14.
john.
Who said it was going to be fair? He punishes those who have no choice because, just because. Who are we to complain? What shall we do about it? Job 9:19 If it is a matter of strength, he is mighty! And if it is a matter of justice, who will summon him? 20 Even if I were innocent, my mouth would condemn me; if I were blameless, it would pronounce me guilty.
Why? Because God chose some for life and some for Hell and that is that and nothing can be done about it but bend yer knee. No one gave us permission to disagree with the word of God.
Rom 9:19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, `Why did you make me like this?' " 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
It sounds very unfair I agree but ..."He is the LORD; let him do what is good in his eyes." 1 Sam 3:14.
john.
johnp,
To me, God is just. He is fair, equal, and right. So the punishment He deals out is certainly fair. Now I understand and agree that we humans do not deserve or merit anything from Him. My quibble is the idea that God would eternally punish those who, so it seems, had no choice. At least that is my understanding of the non-elect as described by Calvinists. They, the non-elect, are such because they cannot be or do otherwise. Like animals, they follow their instincts. And to continue the example, it’s like saying God would eternally punish a cat for killing a mouse or bird. How is that fair? If the non-elect are in the same boat as the cat, just doing what comes natural, then how is it fair, equal, or right to condemn them for what they are programmed to do? The answer to the question for me is that the Calvinist idea of God and humans is a confused one.
Moses, Elijah, and Job disagreed with God but that’s beside the point. I’m simply disagreeing with the Calvinist definition of God. To me, the God of Calvinism is unjust, unequal, and false in His judgments. This is why it’s so hard for me to swallow the idea. I don’t understand how anyone can accept this concept without struggling with the possibility that some of what God does, even if it is “as He pleases”, may be unjust. And to me, saying God chose some for Hell is just that; it’s not fair. And God, to me, is a fair God. Everything He does is with perfect rhyme and reason. So at the very least, if you hold to this idea, there must be a better explanation for it than saying, “it is His decree and we must bow to it”.
Who said it was going to be fair? He punishes those who have no choice because, just because. Who are we to complain? What shall we do about it? Job 9:19 If it is a matter of strength, he is mighty! And if it is a matter of justice, who will summon him? 20 Even if I were innocent, my mouth would condemn me; if I were blameless, it would pronounce me guilty.</font>[/QUOTE]It is a "matter of "JUSTICE", offering salvation to "Some" but "WITHHOLDING" it from "others" IS NOT JUSTICE.
Man is condemned for "transgressing the law", not "predestination".
Evidently, you don't "understand LAW".
God never "CHOSE SIN" for anyone, N
NE can show "one instance" of God creating "ANYTHING", Less than PERFECT.What is "GOOD" in God's eyes is that "NONE SHOULD PERISH", that's why Jesus didn't come to comdemn to the world, and die for all the sins of the world, that the world might be saved, God's "GRACE" is larger (abounds more) than the "SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD".
"UNBELIEF" is the "ONLY REASON" preventing the "WHOLE WORLD" from being saved.
God is no respector of persons, we're all "Sinners", and salvation is offer to "ALL".
Mt 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Was Israel "GIVEN" the opportunity to "Accept Jesus", Calvin would say, NO, due to "predestination".
But to "WHOM" does the sin belong for his rejection, "GOD's Predestination", or "Israel"???
God is not "PRO-ACTIVE" (causing sin) in his plans
But God is "RE-ACTIVE" (to sin) in making Adjustments to that plan, through/by his "FOREKNOWLEDGE".
God rested on the "SEVENTH DAY", he was "FINISHED",
"ADAM" created the "EIGHTH DAY" when he sinned.
Hello 4study.
Rom 9:14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.
He is not unjust because He says He will damn those He wants and save those He wants.
Now apply your human logic again but this time you should use it to agree with God not talk back to Him.
HaHa! If we are left to sin and take the consequences then no blame can be thrown into God's face. Who is it that answers no to God's question, "Can I not make out of you what I want?"
It's scripture why fight it? What's your idea of God got to do with reality. I accept the fact that you would make a nice neighbour with your thoughts on fairness and justice but you err in applying your standards to God, He does as He pleases and I believe His way is better than mine. I believe He will prove Himself to be to us the God of our dreams only we will have to wait until we are made perfect. Until then we are called to believe in His word regardless. The 'Let us make God after our image." Is a great sin.
Venom is reserved for us, especially those who have Bunyan on side. I didn't know that before this thread, the venom I've known but Bunyan believing as I do I did not.
The non-elect as described by Calvinists have no choice in the matter. Born as sinners they live their lives as animals awaiting slaughter. It's not pleasent I agree. But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish. 2 Peter 2:12. The principle stands out here, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed. What? "He is the LORD; let him do what is good in his eyes." 1 Sam 3:18.
I'd bet they would go for it if they had a say. Like brute beasts born only to be destroyed. How is it fair that God destroys the lives of little children with earthquake and tidal wave and wind and brute beasts who get their kicks out of them? How is it fair when the oppressed are oppressed? He sits in the Heavens and does nothing to alieviate the suffering but as a Calvinist I can see God's hand in the way things are, they are not accidents but God is at work, and He knows best and I submit to His great Wisdom.
john.
Cool.
Rom 9:14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.He is not unjust because He says He will damn those He wants and save those He wants.
Now apply your human logic again but this time you should use it to agree with God not talk back to Him.
From a human stand point I would agree with you but with the right doctrine the world is turned upside down. God's Sovereignty and man's responsibility must never cross. Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will? This verse only makes sense to a Calvinist who holds to double predestination.
HaHa! If we are left to sin and take the consequences then no blame can be thrown into God's face. Who is it that answers no to God's question, "Can I not make out of you what I want?" It's scripture why fight it? What's your idea of God got to do with reality. I accept the fact that you would make a nice neighbour with your thoughts on fairness and justice but you err in applying your standards to God, He does as He pleases and I believe His way is better than mine. I believe He will prove Himself to be to us the God of our dreams only we will have to wait until we are made perfect. Until then we are called to believe in His word regardless.
The 'Let us make God after our image." Is a great sin.If it is only a quibble I think you are not far from the truth which really sets you free. There are others around about here that do not like it one little bit.
Venom is reserved for us, especially those who have Bunyan on side. I didn't know that before this thread, the venom I've known but Bunyan believing as I do I did not.The non-elect as described by Calvinists have no choice in the matter. Born as sinners they live their lives as animals awaiting slaughter. It's not pleasent I agree. But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish. 2 Peter 2:12. The principle stands out here, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed. What? "He is the LORD; let him do what is good in his eyes." 1 Sam 3:18.
Ask the mouse or bird.
I'd bet they would go for it if they had a say. Like brute beasts born only to be destroyed. How is it fair that God destroys the lives of little children with earthquake and tidal wave and wind and brute beasts who get their kicks out of them? How is it fair when the oppressed are oppressed? He sits in the Heavens and does nothing to alieviate the suffering but as a Calvinist I can see God's hand in the way things are, they are not accidents but God is at work, and He knows best and I submit to His great Wisdom.john.
Hello Me4Him.
john.
I caught something of this on another thread. Would you care to explain what you mean please. What is the eighth day and the scripture references wouldn't go amiss? Thanks.
He must be He is Sovereign. He raised up Pharoah just to pubicly destroy him. He hardened Pharoah's heart and that caused fresh sin. Ex 4:21 says But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go. But I will God says. I will harden his heart so that he will not do as I tell him.
john.
johnp,
So are you saying Rom 9:14 supports the idea that God indeed condemns whoever He wishes without rhyme or reason? If this verse really communicates that idea, I would probably question my whole concept of who God is. Why? Because it would mean God is unjust. You say it doesn’t, but to me, a god that arbitrarily condemns His own creation is not only unjust, but no god at all. To be honest, I think commentary on this verse, like so many others in the Calvinist/Arminian debates, is saturated with predisposed ideas. One of those ideas being that God predestines everything.
But I disagree with what you, and Calvinism in general, says of Rom. 9:14. You say it’s scripture that proves the premise but I think the premise is too bias to be without it’s own problems. It’s the premise I disagree with – God condemns the non-elect to Hell. This concept seems to be supported by scripture but only because it’s being read with the predisposed idea of it.
I respect everyone’s right to believe what they sincerely understand to be truth.
Yes, it rains on the just and unjust alike. But those are temporary, earthly matters. We’re addressing the issue of eternal punishment here. Two completely different issues. I can believe God is control of all things (i.e "there are no accidents") and at the same time disagree with the idea that He predestines some to Hell.
Hello 4study.
...They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were destined for. 1 Peter 2:8.
john.
You see what I mean? You are not far from this truth. The concept seems to be supported? It is because of Him that you are in Christ Jesus... 1 Cor 1:30.
...They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were destined for. 1 Peter 2:8.
Ok but you accept the scriptures have the final word?
john.