Sin Laid On Jesus... A Sermon by C. H. Spurgeon

[The Archangel]

You have been shown to be willing to make false claims concerning original language grammar. Give it a rest.

How is this making a false claim about grammar?

Since you seem to like sources...

*HIPHIL—(1) causat, of Kal No. 1, a, to cause anything to fall upon any one. Isa. 53:6, הִפְגִּיעַ בּוֹ אֵת עֲוֹן כֻּלָּנוּ “he caused to fall upon him the iniquity of us all”.

Wilhelm Gesenius and Samuel Prideaux Tregelles, Gesenius’ Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament Scriptures (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2003), 666.
​

*The verb pāgaʿ appears forty-four times in the OT with the above range of meanings. The two basic meanings of the Hiphil are (1) “to intercede” (Isa 53:12; 59:16; Jer 15:11; 36:25); and (2) “to lay, burden” (Isa 53:6, “the Lord has ‘laid’ upon him all our iniquity”).

Victor P. Hamilton, “1731 פָּגַע,” ed. R. Laird Harris, Gleason L. Archer Jr., and Bruce K. Waltke, Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (Chicago: Moody Press, 1999), 715.​

*The Septuagint uses παραδίδωμι for פָגַע in Isaiah 53:6. παραδίδωμι is used "as a legal technical term for passing someone along in the judicial process hand over, turn over, deliver up"

Timothy Friberg, Barbara Friberg, and Neva F. Miller, Analytical Lexicon of the Greek New Testament, Baker’s Greek New Testament Library (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books, 2000), 295.
​

*Hiph. 1. cause to light upon, Pf. 3 ms. הִפְגִּיעַ c. acc. rei + ב pers. Is 53:6.

Francis Brown, Samuel Rolles Driver, and Charles Augustus Briggs, Enhanced Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1977), 803.
​

*So what has happened? The consequences have fallen on the Servant. This is not accidental; the text says explicitly that God has made this happen. What a mystery! The conventional thought of the day said that if a person suffered it was because God was bringing his iniquity on him (Num. 32:23; Ps. 40:13 [Eng. 12]). Here God has made this person suffer for the iniquity of “all of us.” Who can this person be?

John N. Oswalt, The Book of Isaiah, Chapters 40–66, The New International Commentary on the Old Testament (Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1998), 389. (Emphasis mine)
​

*The Hebrew verb paga‘ means “to meet” “come upon” (cf. Exod. 23:4), often in either the sense of entreat (e.g., Gen 23:8) or encounter with hostility (e.g., Exod. 5:3). Thus, in the causative stem, the verb means “to cause x to come upon y” as it does in Isaiah 53:6: “and Yahweh caused the (הִפְגִּיעַ אֵת) iniquity … to come upon (ב) him.

John D. Meade, Part 4: Who Does the Servant Intercede For? (available from: Part 4: Who Does the Servant Intercede For? by John Meade Accessed 31 July 2022).
​

That's right... It isn't. But, I have noticed since I've posted these sources, you seem to only have the personal attack left--showing you never had a leg to stand on in the first place.

The Archangel

 

[Van]

Now you call me a liar? Really!? Your lack of understanding does not mean my claims are false. You actually have no way to know whether they are true or false. All you can do is say "My guy says." You have no clue whether or not he is right.

The Archangel

Yet another false charge with no quote. One slice of disinformation after another, pathetically trying to change the subject to my behavior, rather than the topic. Go figure

 

[Van]

How is this making a false claim about grammar?

That's right... It isn't. But, I have noticed since I've posted these sources, you seem to only have the personal attack left--showing you never had a leg to stand on in the first place.

The Archangel

LOL, your quote supports my view. If something fell on me, such as rain, I would tell others I encountered rain. Duh

Since several scholars agree that the word means to meet or encounter something, Archangel's pathetic claims demonstrate a willingness to create false charges.

 

[The Archangel]

Yet another false charge with no quote. One slice of disinformation after another, pathetically trying to change the subject to my behavior, rather than the topic. Go figure

Project much?

Fact: You said: "You have been shown to be willing to make false claims concerning original language grammar" in a post that now appears to have been deleted. So, there's you quote. The charge isn't false.

The Archangel

 

[The Archangel]

LOL, your quote supports my view. If something fell on me, such as rain, I would tell others I encountered rain. Duh

The quotes do not support your view. Your view is that פָגַע means "encounter" in the Hifil of Isa 53:6. The sources I've posted all argue that it is to be understood as "laid" or "laid on." So, in no way does my quote support your view.

The Archangel

 

[Van]

Project much?

Fact: You said: "You have been shown to be willing to make false claims concerning original language grammar" in a post that now appears to have been deleted. So, there's you quote. The charge isn't false.

The Archangel

I have no idea what you are talking about, but you made a false claim about grammar as demonstrated by the Net Bible footnote.

 

[Van]

The quotes do not support your view. Your view is that פָגַע means "encounter" in the Hifil of Isa 53:6. The sources I've posted all argue that it is to be understood as "laid" or "laid on." So, in no way does my quote support your view.

The Archangel

The quotes support my view.l
Now he claims his cited source did not say "fell on." I kid you not. See post 41.

 

[The Archangel]

I have no idea what you are talking about, but you made a false claim about grammar as demonstrated by the Net Bible footnote.

No, I disagreed with the footnote and gave myriad reasons why. That's not a false claim. That you can only adjudicate it as such shows your severe limitations with anything resembling Hebrew.

The Archangel

 

[The Archangel]

The quotes support my view.l
Now he claims his cited source did not say "fell on." I kid you not. See post 41.

These quotes DO NOT support your view:

*HIPHIL—(1) causat, of Kal No. 1, a, to cause anything to fall upon any one. Isa. 53:6, הִפְגִּיעַ בּוֹ אֵת עֲוֹן כֻּלָּנוּ “he caused to fall upon him the iniquity of us all”.

Wilhelm Gesenius and Samuel Prideaux Tregelles, Gesenius’ Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament Scriptures (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2003), 666.

*The verb pāgaʿ appears forty-four times in the OT with the above range of meanings. The two basic meanings of the Hiphil are (1) “to intercede” (Isa 53:12; 59:16; Jer 15:11; 36:25); and (2) “to lay, burden” (Isa 53:6, “the Lord has ‘laid’ upon him all our iniquity”).

Victor P. Hamilton, “1731 פָּגַע,” ed. R. Laird Harris, Gleason L. Archer Jr., and Bruce K. Waltke, Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (Chicago: Moody Press, 1999), 715.

*The Septuagint uses παραδίδωμι for פָגַע in Isaiah 53:6. παραδίδωμι is used "as a legal technical term for passing someone along in the judicial process hand over, turn over, deliver up"

Timothy Friberg, Barbara Friberg, and Neva F. Miller, Analytical Lexicon of the Greek New Testament, Baker’s Greek New Testament Library (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books, 2000), 295.

*Hiph. 1. cause to light upon, Pf. 3 ms. הִפְגִּיעַ c. acc. rei + ב pers. Is 53:6.

Francis Brown, Samuel Rolles Driver, and Charles Augustus Briggs, Enhanced Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1977), 803.

*So what has happened? The consequences have fallen on the Servant. This is not accidental; the text says explicitly that God has made this happen. What a mystery! The conventional thought of the day said that if a person suffered it was because God was bringing his iniquity on him (Num. 32:23; Ps. 40:13 [Eng. 12]). Here God has made this person suffer for the iniquity of “all of us.” Who can this person be?

John N. Oswalt, The Book of Isaiah, Chapters 40–66, The New International Commentary on the Old Testament (Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1998), 389. (Emphasis mine)

*The Hebrew verb paga‘ means “to meet” “come upon” (cf. Exod. 23:4), often in either the sense of entreat (e.g., Gen 23:8) or encounter with hostility (e.g., Exod. 5:3). Thus, in the causative stem, the verb means “to cause x to come upon y” as it does in Isaiah 53:6: “and Yahweh caused the (הִפְגִּיעַ אֵת) iniquity … to come upon (ב) him.

John D. Meade, Part 4: Who Does the Servant Intercede For? (available from: Part 4: Who Does the Servant Intercede For? by John Meade Accessed 31 July 2022).​

The Archangel

 

[Van]

No, I disagreed with the footnote and gave myriad reasons why. That's not a false claim. That you can only adjudicate it as such shows your severe limitations with anything resembling Hebrew.

The Archangel

LOL, you can disagree with truth till the cows come home, does not change the truth. The word can be properly translated as encounter, and you falsely claimed it could not.

 

[The Archangel]

LOL, you can disagree with truth till the cows come home, does not change the truth. The word can be properly translated as encounter, and you falsely claimed it could not.

How daft can one person be?! Did you not see the myriad sources I posted (for your benefit) that show it means "to lay or burden?" Of course you did. You're simply ignoring them--and making false clams against me.

Again, I didn't "Falsely" claim anything. You should really think twice about continuing to call me a "liar."

The Archangel

 

[Van]

=Van's view]The Hebrew word translated as "laid" means to encounter or make intercession. So the Lord encountered the consequence of humanities sin and made intercession, thus providing the means of reconciliation.

These quotes were falsely claimed to NOT support Van's view:

*HIPHIL—(1) causat, of Kal No. 1, a, to cause anything to fall upon any one. Isa. 53:6, הִפְגִּיעַ בּוֹ אֵת עֲוֹן כֻּלָּנוּ “he caused to fall upon him the iniquity of us all”. [To fall upon means to encounter]

*The verb pāgaʿ appears forty-four times in the OT with the above range of meanings. The two basic meanings of the Hiphil are (1) “to intercede” (Isa 53:12; 59:16; Jer 15:11; 36:25); and (2) “to lay, burden” (Isa 53:6, “the Lord has ‘laid’ upon him all our iniquity”). [Thus the HIPHIL meaning agrees with my view]


*Hiph. 1. cause to light upon, Pf. 3 ms. הִפְגִּיעַ c. acc. rei + ב pers. Is 53:6. [to light upon means to encounter]


*The Hebrew verb paga‘ means “to meet” “come upon” (cf. Exod. 23:4), often in either the sense of entreat (e.g., Gen 23:8) or encounter with hostility (e.g., Exod. 5:3). Thus, in the causative stem, the verb means “to cause x to come upon y” as it does in Isaiah 53:6: “and Yahweh caused the (הִפְגִּיעַ אֵת) iniquity … to come upon (ב) him. [Agrees with Van's view]
​

 

[Van]

How daft can one person be?! Did you not see the myriad sources I posted (for your benefit) that show it means "to lay or burden?" Of course you did. You're simply ignoring them--and making false clams against me.

Again, I didn't "Falsely" claim anything. You should really think twice about continuing to call me a "liar."

The Archangel

Yet another post kingmaker a false charge without a quote. Nothing on the subject, and no defense of thread integrity.

 

[The Archangel]

I can't help but notice you only posted a partial list.

*HIPHIL—(1) causat, of Kal No. 1, a, to cause anything to fall upon any one. Isa. 53:6, הִפְגִּיעַ בּוֹ אֵת עֲוֹן כֻּלָּנוּ “he caused to fall upon him the iniquity of us all”. [To fall upon means to encounter]

*The verb pāgaʿ appears forty-four times in the OT with the above range of meanings. The two basic meanings of the Hiphil are (1) “to intercede” (Isa 53:12; 59:16; Jer 15:11; 36:25); and (2) “to lay, burden” (Isa 53:6, “the Lord has ‘laid’ upon him all our iniquity”).
​

[Thus the HIPHIL meaning agrees with my view] False. Notice this part: (2) “to lay, burden” (Isa 53:6, “the Lord has ‘laid’ upon him all our iniquity”). It does not agree with your view.

*Hiph. 1. cause to light upon, Pf. 3 ms. הִפְגִּיעַ c. acc. rei + ב pers. Is 53:6.
​

[to light upon means to encounter] False.

*The Hebrew verb paga‘ means “to meet” “come upon” (cf. Exod. 23:4), often in either the sense of entreat (e.g., Gen 23:8) or encounter with hostility (e.g., Exod. 5:3). Thus, in the causative stem, the verb means “to cause x to come upon y” as it does in Isaiah 53:6: “and Yahweh caused the (הִפְגִּיעַ אֵת) iniquity … to come upon (ב) him.
​

[Agrees with Van's view] False Notice: Thus, in the causative stem, the verb means “to cause x to come upon y” as it does in Isaiah 53:6: “and Yahweh caused the (הִפְגִּיעַ אֵת) iniquity … to come upon (ב) him.

Again, I have NEVER been arguing that Jesus does not bear our iniquity. I've only been arguing that the Hifil stem of פָגַע does not mean "Encounter" as you wrongly claim. "Encounter" has an active meaning. "Lay upon" does not. There is a huge difference.

Now, you're demonstrating a fundamental disconnect with English, too....

The Archangel

​

 

[The Archangel]

Yet another post kingmaker a false charge without a quote. Nothing on the subject, and no defense of thread integrity.

You actually see that I did quote you post, right? Now, you saying that I didn't is a false charge against me. Your slander obviously knows no bounds. Truth seems to be a casualty in your vain cause to be right.

The Archangel

 

[Van]

You actually see that I did quote you post, right? Now, you saying that I didn't is a false charge against me. Your slander obviously knows no bounds. Truth seems to be a casualty in your vain cause to be right.

The Archangel

Yet another bogus post hurling false charges against me. Pay no attention to these pathetic posts.

 

[5 point Gillinist]

Yet another claim, but since this poster often makes well documented false claims, pay no attention.

I agree with your post for a change. I'm glad that you finally admit to posting false claims.

 

[Alan Gross]

I agree with your post for a change. I'm glad that you finally admit to posting false claims.

What do you mean? I'm missing what you are saying.

 

[tyndale1946]

What do you mean? I'm missing what you are saying.

Alan I believe he is addressing Van!... Not you!... Easy mistake... Brother Glen

 

[Alan Gross]

Alan I believe he is addressing Van!... Not you!... Easy mistake... Brother Glen

Might just be where I was reading Right-to-Left, again, in my Mother Tongue.

Happens all the time.
אני חכם