Sin Nature?

[webdog]

Sin comes to the human through the father. Since Christ's Father is THE Father he had no guilt of original sin and because of that could not have died at all had he not taken on the punishment due to the sins of the people on himself.

Here is an article about federal headship:

http://carm.org/federal-headship

So, sin is a physical trait? Is it somewhere in the Y chromosome?

Welcome to the BB, btw :thumbs:

 

[HankD]

Sin is not a physical thing and is not passed through the genes.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:​

By one man, not by many.​

Aaron, why do you think it was necessary for Jesus Christ to be born of a virgin?​

HankD​

 

[Amy.G]

So, sin is a physical trait? Is it somewhere in the Y chromosome?

Welcome to the BB, btw :thumbs:

It's not sin that comes from the father. It's the nature or propensity to sin that comes from him.

This is what I've learned so far. I believe it is accurate.

 

[Winman]

That is a simile, Winman. "like unto his brothers." It does not mean exactly like his brothers. It also says in 1John 3:1,2 that we shall be like him for we shall see him as he is. We shall be like him (a simile). That does not mean we shall be gods. We will not be divine, or acquire deity. In some way we shall be like Christ. In some way Christ became like us. He did not inherit a sin nature. If he did he would not have been able to die for our sins. That would have been impossible.
He was the sinless who died for the sinner.

You start with the assumption that we have a sin nature, something never said in scripture.
No, the scriptures say we are "flesh".
Now, Paul does say that in his flesh dwells no good thing, and I agree with this. Our flesh simply wants what it wants. If we obey our fleshly desires we will commit every sort of sin, we will eat too much, we will get angry and hurt anyone who offends us, we will chase every pretty girl we see. This is how the flesh operates.
Jesus was able to be tempted, so obviously he came under the influence of fleshly desires. But unlike us, he gained victory over the flesh and did not obey sinful lusts.
What would be the victory if he did not overcome these desires? God in heaven cannot be tempted, there is nothing to overcome. But Jesus became a man and overcame those lusts that causes every man's downfall. He overcame temptation where Adam fell in defeat.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

So, sin is a physical trait? Is it somewhere in the Y chromosome?

Welcome to the BB, btw :thumbs:

The fall is a curse upon all creation that was under the domain of man. That is why we die. That is why animals die. That is why there is disease and deformity. That is why evolution is incompatible with the bible, because evolution requires death to be natural but the bible is clear that the wages of sin is death.

God has selected the sexes to fulfill their various roles. God chose the man to be the head of the family. In that headship comes the curse of sin.

 

[HankD]

So, sin is a physical trait? Is it somewhere in the Y chromosome?

I had suggested that it should be pondered.

The impact of sin affected everything that we are - body, soul and spirit.

We simply are not given every intricate detail about how that propensity to sin is passed down to each of us.

This we know:

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

It was necessary for Jesus ( The Second Person of the Trinity) to have a conception unlike any of us with a human mother but not a human father.

He was sinless, we are not.

Finally:

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.​

Unfortunately, this ("The Sin Nature") is one of those handful of subjects which when debated on the BB often doesn't end well (ad hominems issued, anathemas pronounced, etc...).​

HankD​

 

[DHK]

You start with the assumption that we have a sin nature, something never said in scripture.
No, the scriptures say we are "flesh".
Now, Paul does say that in his flesh dwells no good thing, and I agree with this. Our flesh simply wants what it wants. If we obey our fleshly desires we will commit every sort of sin, we will eat too much, we will get angry and hurt anyone who offends us, we will chase every pretty girl we see. This is how the flesh operates.
Jesus was able to be tempted, so obviously he came under the influence of fleshly desires. But unlike us, he gained victory over the flesh and did not obey sinful lusts.
What would be the victory if he did not overcome these desires? God in heaven cannot be tempted, there is nothing to overcome. But Jesus became a man and overcame those lusts that causes every man's downfall. He overcame temptation where Adam fell in defeat.

I have posted many times over where the Scriptures say we have a sin nature.
Psalm 51:5 you are familiar with.
"I was shapen in iniquity and in sin did my mother did conceive me.

Also Psalm 58:3...go astray as soon as they be born speaking lies.

Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil. (Jeremiah 13:23)
--Three rhetorical questions; all have the same answer--No.
Neither you, because of your sin nature, can do good. It is in your nature. The Ethiopian's nature is black. The leopard's nature is spotted. Man's nature is sinful.

Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: (Ephesians 2:2)
--You are a child of disobedience. You are that way because of your nature. By nature you do according to the prince of the power of the air.
By nature you do according to the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience? Why? You have a sin nature.

Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. (Ephesians 2:3)
--You are by nature the children of wrath--even as everyone else is. We have a sin nature. We inherited it.
In the past we behaved according to the lusts of our flesh because of our sin nature.
We fulfilled the desires of our flesh because of our sin nature.
We fulfilled the desires of the mind because of our sin nature.

We have a sin nature because of Adam's sin.
As the old McGuffey reader taught:
"In Adam's fall, we sinned all."

 

[Osage Bluestem]

You start with the assumption that we have a sin nature, something never said in scripture.
No, the scriptures say we are "flesh".
Now, Paul does say that in his flesh dwells no good thing, and I agree with this. Our flesh simply wants what it wants. If we obey our fleshly desires we will commit every sort of sin, we will eat too much, we will get angry and hurt anyone who offends us, we will chase every pretty girl we see. This is how the flesh operates.
Jesus was able to be tempted, so obviously he came under the influence of fleshly desires. But unlike us, he gained victory over the flesh and did not obey sinful lusts.
What would be the victory if he did not overcome these desires? God in heaven cannot be tempted, there is nothing to overcome. But Jesus became a man and overcame those lusts that causes every man's downfall. He overcame temptation where Adam fell in defeat.

Here is some scripture cited from an article that proves we have a sin nature:

7. SCRIPTURE PROOF

I Cor. 2:14: The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged.
Gen. 2:17: But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Rom. 5:12: Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned.
II Cor. 1:9: Yea, we ourselves had the sentence of death within ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God who raiseth the dead.
Eph. 2:1-3: And you did He make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins, wherein ye once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the powers of the air, of the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience; among whom ye also all once lived in the lusts of your flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
Eph. 2:12: Ye were at that time separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
Jer. 13:23: Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.
Ps. 51:5: Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity; And in sin did my mother conceive me.
John 3:3: Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Rom. 3:10-12: As it is written, There is none righteous, no not one;
There is none that understandeth, There is none that seeketh after God;
They have all turned aside, they are together become unprofitable;
There is none that doeth good, no, not so much as one.
Job 14:4: Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.
I Cor. 1:18: For the word of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us who are saved it is the power of God.
Acts 13:41: Behold, ye despisers, and wonder and perish; For I work a work in your days, A work which ye shall in no wise believe, if one declare it unto you.
Prov. 30:12: There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes,
And yet are not washed from their filthiness.
John 5:21: For as the Father raiseth the dead and giveth them life, even so the Son also giveth life to whom He will.
John 6:53: Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink His blood, ye have not life in yourselves.
John 8:19: They said therefore unto Him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye know neither me, nor my Father; if ye knew me, ye would know my Father also.
Matt. 11:25: I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou didst hide these things from the wise and understanding, and didst reveal them unto babes.
II Cor. 5:17: if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature. John 14:16: (And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may be with you forever,) even the Spirit of truth: whom the world cannot receive; for it beholdeth Him not, neither knoweth Him; ye know Him; for He abideth with you, and shall be in you.
John 3:19: And this is the judgment, that light is come unto the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil.

Link: http://www.the-highway.com/depravity_Boettner.html

 

[Winman]

DHK, I know that you know other explanations are offered for those verses. David was born in iniquity, into a sinful world. Babies speaking lies is obvious hyperbole, a leopard changing his spots speaks of absolute obstinance.
There are equal numbers of verses that say we are made upright, our souls and spirit come from God...
All I know is that the scriptures say Jesus came in the flesh, and those who deny this are anti-christ (1 John 4:3). Hebrews chapter 2 makes it very clear that Jesus was made like his brethren IN ALL THINGS. That would include the nature as well.
We will have to agree to disagree.

 

[DHK]

DHK, I know that you know other explanations are offered for those verses. David was born in iniquity, into a sinful world. Babies speaking lies is obvious hyperbole, a leopard changing his spots speaks of absolute obstinance.
There are equal numbers of verses that say we are made upright, our souls and spirit come from God...
All I know is that the scriptures say Jesus came in the flesh, and those who deny this are anti-christ (1 John 4:3). Hebrews chapter 2 makes it very clear that Jesus was made like his brethren IN ALL THINGS. That would include the nature as well.
We will have to agree to disagree.

There is a very good reason WHY he was born of a virgin.

 

[Winman]

There is a very good reason WHY he was born of a virgin.

Well of course he had to be born of a virgin, how else could God become true man?

If Jesus was born of a woman who had relations with a man, would anybody believe he was God's son? Of course not, they would believe him born of an earthly father, an average man.

And being a virgin does not mean a person is not a sinner, there are millions of virgins in the world, and every one of them is a sinner.

Mary was a sinner, she offered a sin offering after Jesus was born. She called Jesus her Savior. Savior from what? Her sins.

Unless you believe the ridiculous and unscriptural doctrine of the Immaculate Conception.

No, Mary was a good girl, but she was a sinner. Jesus shared her flesh. If sin is passed through the flesh, then Jesus inherited a sin nature from Mary.

 

[DHK]

Well of course he had to be born of a virgin, how else could God become true man?

If Jesus was born of a woman who had relations with a man, would anybody believe he was God's son? Of course not, they would believe him born of an earthly father, an average man.

Then, he would be like his brethren in all points such as we are, wouldn't he?

And being a virgin does not mean a person is not a sinner, there are millions of virgins in the world, and every one of them is a sinner.

That is a moot point unless you are debating the RCC about the Imaculate Conception. I don't believe in that. I don't think any of us do.

Mary was a sinner, she offered a sin offering after Jesus was born. She called Jesus her Savior. Savior from what? Her sins.

And this has to do with....?

Unless you believe the ridiculous and unscriptural doctrine of the Immaculate Conception.

Already addressed.

No, Mary was a good girl, but she was a sinner. Jesus shared her flesh. If sin is passed through the flesh, then Jesus inherited a sin nature from Mary.

No such doctrine. That is why they call it the Adamic nature; it comes through Adam, and every man since that time. Thus Christ had to be born of a virgin to escape the Adamic or sin nature.

 

[Winman]

Then, he would be like his brethren in all points such as we are, wouldn't he?

That is a moot point unless you are debating the RCC about the Imaculate Conception. I don't believe in that. I don't think any of us do.

And this has to do with....?

Already addressed.

No such doctrine. That is why they call it the Adamic nature; it comes through Adam, and every man since that time. Thus Christ had to be born of a virgin to escape the Adamic or sin nature.

He was made in the likeness of sinful flesh YET WITHOUT SIN. The difference is that he didn't commit sin, that is the ONLY difference.

I don't want to keep arguing about this, we are flesh, and Paul said there is no good thing in our flesh. I believe this, if you want to call this the sin nature, fine. I do believe that the flesh with its lusts and desires tempts a man to sin.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Hate to cut off good give-and-take, but pointed out to me this was way past limit.

IF (and only if) you have a salient point still unmade, start a thread on that point only. Thanks.