SIN TO DEATH

[Craigbythesea]

Some additional comments of mine on John 10:27-29

Proponents of the doctrine of eternal security like to quote John 10:27-29 out of context and totally miss the point that Jesus was making—the very point that got Him crucified!

27. “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28. and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

29. “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.” (NASB, 1995)

Here it is in context,

22. At that time the Feast of the Dedication took place at Jerusalem;
23. it was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple in the portico of Solomon.
24. The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”
25. Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me.
26. “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
27. “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28. and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29. “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
30. “I and the Father are one.” (NASB, 1995)

In this passage, Jesus is asserting his deity. The importance of the words in verse 28 all but escapes the attention of many. Compare these two passages:

Isa. 43:13. “Even from eternity I am He, And there is none who can deliver out of My hand; I act and who can reverse it?” (NASB, 1995)

Wisdom 3:1. But the souls of the just are in the hand of God,
and no torment shall touch them. (NAB, 1986)

Jesus is telling the Jews that His hand is the hand of God, and that, therefore, He is God! But notice that there is nothing at all in any of these three verses that says that anyone is grasped in the hand of God so that he cannot escape if he wants to. The point is that it is the hand of God, and being the hand of God there is safety in it Those who are in the hand of God are in Christ and in Christ is the eternal life—and no where else! Anyone who chooses either actively or passively to depart from the Christian faith departs from Christ and necessarily departs from the life that is in Christ. Just as we possess the safety of God only while we abide in Christ, we possess the life of Christ only while we abide in Him. Eternal life is Christ’s life and we posses it only in Him. The Greek adjective translated ‘eternal’ modifies the Greek noun translated ‘life’ and thus describes not our possession of the life, but the life itself—the life of Christ that we share with Him when we are in Him.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Indeed, some of these passages, like John 10:27-29, when compared with the parallel passage in Isa. 43:1-28, really teach that the Christian’s security is conditional upon his continued faithfulness.

John 10:27. “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28. and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29. “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.”

in the Greek text, verse 28 reads

"κἀγὼ ζωὴν αἰώνιον δίδωμι αὐτοῖς· καὶ οὐ μὴ ἀπόλωνται εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα, καὶ οὐχ ἁρπάσει τις αὐτὰ ἐκ τῆς χειρός μου"

the literal English translation is:

"and I give them life eternal, and they shall never, not ever perish unto for ever, and never will seize anyone of them out of My Hand"

Here we have a very strong denial in the Greek, the double negative, "οὐ μὴ", used emphatically, belonging to the verb, ἀπόλωνται, with the meaning, "they shall by no means perish"

This reading is also seen in the additional in the Greek, which is left untranslated in our English Versions, "εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα", which is, "for all eternity".

We have this also in John 8:51, where Jesus says:

"ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, ἐάν τις τὸν ἐμὸν λόγον τηρήσῃ, θάνατον οὐ μὴ θεωρήσῃ εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα"

Note also here, the use of the double negative, "οὐ μὴ", and as in 10:28, we have "εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα", which has the meaning, "truly, truly I say to you, if anyone My words keeps, death never, not ever, shall he see, for all eternity"

The same is seen in John 15:26, where Jesus is speaking with Martha, " καὶ πᾶς ὁ ζῶν καὶ πιστεύων εἰς ἐμὲ οὐ μὴ ἀποθάνῃ εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα πιστεύεις τοῦτο"

Again, we have the strong double negative used, "οὐ μὴ", together with "εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα".

These are some of the strongest passages in the Bible, for the absolute, eternal security of the truly born-again believer.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Wrong, as they had not yet been given life!!!!!!

WHAT does verse 13 say?

 

[Craigbythesea]

in the Greek text, verse 28 reads


"κἀγὼ ζωὴν αἰώνιον δίδωμι αὐτοῖς· καὶ οὐ μὴ ἀπόλωνται εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα, καὶ οὐχ ἁρπάσει τις αὐτὰ ἐκ τῆς χειρός μου"


the literal English translation is:


"and I give them life eternal, and they shall never, not ever perish unto for ever, and never will seize anyone of them out of My Hand"


Here we have a very strong denial in the Greek, the double negative, "οὐ μὴ", used emphatically, belonging to the verb, ἀπόλωνται, with the meaning, "they shall by no means perish"


This reading is also seen in the additional in the Greek, which is left untranslated in our English Versions, "εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα", which is, "for all eternity".


We have this also in John 8:51, where Jesus says:


"ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, ἐάν τις τὸν ἐμὸν λόγον τηρήσῃ, θάνατον οὐ μὴ θεωρήσῃ εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα"


Note also here, the use of the double negative, "οὐ μὴ", and as in 10:28, we have "εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα", which has the meaning, "truly, truly I say to you, if anyone My words keeps, death never, not ever, shall he see, for all eternity"


The same is seen in John 15:26, where Jesus is speaking with Martha, " καὶ πᾶς ὁ ζῶν καὶ πιστεύων εἰς ἐμὲ οὐ μὴ ἀποθάνῃ εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα πιστεύεις τοῦτο"


Again, we have the strong double negative used, "οὐ μὴ", together with "εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα".


These are some of the strongest passages in the Bible, for the absolute, eternal security of the truly born-again believer.

John 10:28. κἀγὼ ζωὴν αἰώνιον δίδωμι αὐτοῖς· καὶ οὐ μὴ ἀπόλωνται εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα, καὶ οὐχ ἁρπάσει. (TR1550)


John 10:28. κἀγὼ δίδωμι αὐτοῖς ζωὴν αἰώνιον καὶ οὐ μὴ ἀπόλωνται εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα καὶ οὐχ ἁρπάσει τις αὐτὰ ἐκ τῆς χειρός μου. (NA28)

John 10:28. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one will snatch them out of my hand. (NRSV)

John 10:28 and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. (RSV)

John 10:28 and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. (ASV)

John 10:28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. (NASB, 1995)

John 8:35. ὁ δὲ δοῦλος οὐ μένει ἐν τῇ οἰκίᾳ εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα, ὁ υἱὸς μένει εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα. (NA28)

John 8:35. The slave does not have a permanent place in the household; the son has a place there forever. (NASB, 1995) [εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα = “throughout the age”].

John 8:51. “ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, ἐάν τις τὸν ἐμὸν λόγον τηρήσῃ, θάνατον οὐ μὴ θεωρήσῃ εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα” (NA28)

None of these verses negate the fact that these things are true only of those persons who are currently in Christ.

The doctrine of conditional security is one of the very few biblical doctrines that is so very clearly taught in the Bible that for 1,500 years it was universally accepted as the truth. The doctrines (there are many of them with many variations) of eternal security are not found in any extra biblical literature until the 16th century! The doctrine of conditional security is found in extrabiblical literature throughout the entire history of the church and it has always been the view of at least the very large majority of Christians representing all of the branches of Christianity. So—how is it that today millions of Christians believe in one or more of the doctrines of eternal security? Several answers to this question have been proposed.

1. Very many Christians are so desperate to believe in these doctrines that they habitually or even automatically shut out the massive amount of evidence that they are exclusively manmade doctrines smuggled into the Church in the 16th century.

2. The teachers of the doctrines of eternal security are very aggressive and vocal about their belief that the doctrines are true.

3. The theological landscape of the church has changed to where the doctrine fits in very comfortably in some parts of the landscape.

4. Very many Christians simply believe in the doctrines of their church.

 

[SavedByGrace]

John 10:28. κἀγὼ ζωὴν αἰώνιον δίδωμι αὐτοῖς· καὶ οὐ μὴ ἀπόλωνται εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα, καὶ οὐχ ἁρπάσει. (TR1550)


John 10:28. κἀγὼ δίδωμι αὐτοῖς ζωὴν αἰώνιον καὶ οὐ μὴ ἀπόλωνται εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα καὶ οὐχ ἁρπάσει τις αὐτὰ ἐκ τῆς χειρός μου. (NA28)

John 10:28. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one will snatch them out of my hand. (NRSV)

John 10:28 and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. (RSV)

John 10:28 and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. (ASV)

John 10:28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. (NASB, 1995)

John 8:35. ὁ δὲ δοῦλος οὐ μένει ἐν τῇ οἰκίᾳ εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα, ὁ υἱὸς μένει εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα. (NA28)

John 8:35. The slave does not have a permanent place in the household; the son has a place there forever. (NASB, 1995) [εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα = “throughout the age”].

John 8:51. “ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, ἐάν τις τὸν ἐμὸν λόγον τηρήσῃ, θάνατον οὐ μὴ θεωρήσῃ εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα” (NA28)

None of these verses negate the fact that these things are true only of those persons who are currently in Christ.

The doctrine of conditional security is one of the very few biblical doctrines that is so very clearly taught in the Bible that for 1,500 years it was universally accepted as the truth. The doctrines (there are many of them with many variations) of eternal security are not found in any extra biblical literature until the 16th century! The doctrine of conditional security is found in extrabiblical literature throughout the entire history of the church and it has always been the view of at least the very large majority of Christians representing all of the branches of Christianity. So—how is it that today millions of Christians believe in one or more of the doctrines of eternal security? Several answers to this question have been proposed.

1. Very many Christians are so desperate to believe in these doctrines that they habitually or even automatically shut out the massive amount of evidence that they are exclusively manmade doctrines smuggled into the Church in the 16th century.

2. The teachers of the doctrines of eternal security are very aggressive and vocal about their belief that the doctrines are true.

3. The theological landscape of the church has changed to where the doctrine fits in very comfortably in some parts of the landscape.

4. Very many Christians simply believe in the doctrines of their church.

None of the English translations you quote translate the complete Greek text. The words "εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα" are omitted!

The language used by Jesus Christ is not casual, but very much emphatic, and strong, to ASSURE that "IN HIM" the believer is SECURE!

 

[CJP69]

You have made a couple of references to the fact that Paul was called to the Gentiles while Peter was to the Jews. Are you saying that there are 2 gospels?

The text of Galatians 2 explicitly tells you that there were two gospels (actually there have been more than just those two but at the time there were two).

Do we only need Paul's epistles?

Need?

No. We need the whole of God's word. Without the book of Acts, just to make one obvious point, Paul's ministry would not make any sense whatsoever and he'd certainly be rejected as a heretic. The Gospels are obviously indispensable as is the Penteteuch and what would we do without the Psalms and Proverbs, not to mention the rich history found the whole of the Old Testament and the New Testament books from Hebrews through Revelation are an absolute treasure trove of wisdom and godly principles as well as future prophecy that we will witness fulfilled for the nation of Israel.

So, I wouldn't certainly not agree with anyone that suggested that we do not need anything but Paul's epistles. That would be shortsightedness in the extreme. On the contrary, "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." There is, however, good reason why the apostle Paul instructs us to "rightly divide" the word of truth. There are portions of it that are written to the Body of Christ and apply directly to us and there are other portions that were written to others and where truths that can be applied must be more carefully gleaned from the text. It's nothing more than bearing the context of the passages in mind and should not be any more controversial to say that James 2:14-26 and Hebrew 6:4-6 don't apply directly to today's believer than it would be to say the same about Genesis 17:10-14 and Leviticus 5:1-6. If we fail to pay attention to who a passage of scripture is written to then the inevitable results is going to be confusion, false doctrine and wasted energy, time and effort attempting to do that which Christ has already accomplished.


P.S. Thank you for asking an excellent couple of questions, by the way!

 

[Dave G]

But notice that there is nothing at all in any of these three verses that says that anyone is grasped in the hand of God so that he cannot escape if he wants to.

Sure there is
The fact that He said that no man can take them from His hand and that no man is more powerful than God.

Is this not evident to you from what is written?
It is to me.

Anyone who chooses either actively or passively to depart from the Christian faith departs from Christ and necessarily departs from the life that is in Christ.

The parables of both the sower ( stated in Matthew 13:3-9, and explained by the Lord in Matthew 13:18-23 ) and the tares ( stated by the Lord in Matthew 13:24-30, and explained in Matthew 13:36-43 ) tell us who they are that depart from the living God and go back to the world and its ways...

They are not God's elect, chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1 ).
They were never born again, never sealed with the Holy Spirit of God unto the day of their redemption.
They were, are and always will be unbelievers who were never "of God", but were sown in the field of God's elect by His enemy...they believed for a while and then ceased to continue both in the word and in the faith.

The elect continue and endure, because it is in their nature to do so and because they are kept there by the unfailing power of God ( 1 Peter 1:5 ).
Those who are not, do not endure and continue in the faith...

Because they were never His to begin with.

4. Very many Christians simply believe in the doctrines of their church.

I agree.
That is why I trust no one to show me what the truth of His word is, except the Lord Himself.

That is also how I know that the so-called doctrine of conditional security is rooted in works, and not in the grace of God which brings salvation.
If it were of grace ( Romans 11:5-6 ), then the security of the believer would not be conditional ( based on their efforts )... but evidential and based on God's efforts alone.

 

[robycop3]

How does this passage show that the OP is wrong?

Can you respond to the actual passages in the OP to show what I have written is not what the Bible actually says

It shows what the sin leading to death actually is, as unforgiven sin leads to death. The passages you quoted beg the question, "What IS that sin?" And Matt. 12:32 answers that question.

 

[Van]

WHAT does verse 13 say?

John has written these things so that his audience "may know" they have eternal life. (1 John 5:13)

The verb "may know" indicates a possible outcome, rather than an existing outcome. Thus is consistent with 1 John 5:16 with "brother" referring to someone in an organizational relationship, either family, or ethnic, or professing believer.

 

[Craigbythesea]

None of the English translations you quote translate the complete Greek text. The words "εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα" are omitted!

This allegation is false:

John 10:28. κἀγὼ ζωὴν αἰώνιον δίδωμι αὐτοῖς· καὶ οὐ μὴ ἀπόλωνται εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα, καὶ οὐχ ἁρπάσει. (TR1550)

John 10:28. κἀγὼ δίδωμι αὐτοῖς ζωὴν αἰώνιον καὶ οὐ μὴ ἀπόλωνται εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα καὶ οὐχ ἁρπάσει τις αὐτὰ ἐκ τῆς χειρός μου. (NA28)

John 10:28. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one will snatch them out of my hand. (NRSV)

John 10:28 and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. (RSV)

John 10:28 and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. (ASV)

John 10:28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. (NASB, 1995)

John 8:35. ὁ δὲ δοῦλος οὐ μένει ἐν τῇ οἰκίᾳ εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα, ὁ υἱὸς μένει εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα. (NA28)

John 8:35. The slave does not have a permanent place in the household; the son has a place there forever. (NASB, 1995) [εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα = “unto the age”].

John 8:51. “ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, ἐάν τις τὸν ἐμὸν λόγον τηρήσῃ, θάνατον οὐ μὴ θεωρήσῃ εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα” (NA28)

The language used by Jesus Christ is not casual, but very much emphatic, and strong, to ASSURE that "IN HIM" the believer is SECURE!

No one disagrees with this fact. However, when John 10:27-29 is compared with the parallel passage in Isa. 43:1-28, we see that a Christian’s security is conditional upon his remaining in Christ. Jesus is not a jailor or a prison warden who has thrown away the key! Countless Christians have forsaken Christ and everything that being in Christ involves—just as the Israelites forsook God and their very security in Him!

Isaiah 43:13. I am God, and also henceforth I am He;
there is no one who can deliver from my hand;
I work and who can hinder it?

Isaiah 43:28. Therefore I profaned the princes of the sanctuary,
I delivered Jacob to utter destruction,
and Israel to reviling. (NRSV)

 

[Craigbythesea]

John has written these things so that his audience "may know" they have eternal life. (1 John 5:13)

The verb "may know" indicates a possible outcome, rather than an existing outcome. Thus is consistent with 1 John 5:16 with "brother" referring to someone in an organizational relationship, either family, or ethnic, or professing believer.

(1 John 5:13 ) Ταῦτα ἔγραψα ὑμῖν, ἵνα εἰδῆτε ὅτι ζωὴν ἔχετε αἰώνιον, τοῖς πιστεύουσιν εἰς τὸ ὄνομα τοῦ υἱοῦ τοῦ θεοῦ. (NA28)

Notice especially these words, “ζωὴν ἔχετε αἰώνιον, τοῖς πιστεύουσιν” where the word ἔχετε is in the present tense (NOT the future tense) and that the word πιστεύουσιν is a present participle speaking of the present rather than the future.

1 John 5:13. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life. (NRSV)

John is writing to believers who are presently believing in the name of the Son of God and telling them that they presently have eternal life—with nothing being said of the future!

 

[Keith Mullins]

The text of Galatians 2 explicitly tells you that there were two gospels (actually there have been more than just those two but at the time there were two).


Need?

No. We need the whole of God's word. Without the book of Acts, just to make one obvious point, Paul's ministry would not make any sense whatsoever and he'd certainly be rejected as a heretic. The Gospels are obviously indispensable as is the Penteteuch and what would we do without the Psalms and Proverbs, not to mention the rich history found the whole of the Old Testament and the New Testament books from Hebrews through Revelation are an absolute treasure trove of wisdom and godly principles as well as future prophecy that we will witness fulfilled for the nation of Israel.

So, I wouldn't certainly not agree with anyone that suggested that we do not need anything but Paul's epistles. That would be shortsightedness in the extreme. On the contrary, "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." There is, however, good reason why the apostle Paul instructs us to "rightly divide" the word of truth. There are portions of it that are written to the Body of Christ and apply directly to us and there are other portions that were written to others and where truths that can be applied must be more carefully gleaned from the text. It's nothing more than bearing the context of the passages in mind and should not be any more controversial to say that James 2:14-26 and Hebrew 6:4-6 don't apply directly to today's believer than it would be to say the same about Genesis 17:10-14 and Leviticus 5:1-6. If we fail to pay attention to who a passage of scripture is written to then the inevitable results is going to be confusion, false doctrine and wasted energy, time and effort attempting to do that which Christ has already accomplished.


P.S. Thank you for asking an excellent couple of questions, by the way!

Thank you for your kindness.

Paul himself (under inspiration of God) wrote that there is no other Gospel. When he says he is apostle to the Gentiles and Peter is Apostle to the Jews, he is speaking of the fact that his ministry leads him a different direction than Peter's. Much like you minister to different people than I do.

A good example is evident in the current church culture. There is a popular church in our community that is hip and cool. They have a worship band, keep the lights down, and have a fog machine.

There are others that wear suits and dresses. These churchessays are very traditional. The church I pastor is more people who don't want the produced version of church nor the formality of the traditional Church.

We all preach the same Gospel of Christ's death, burial, and resurrection but we are ministering to different groups.

Faith saves Gentiles and Jews. Always has and always will.

To rightly divide simple means to properly handle or understand. Not to divide it into parts per Ruckman Theology.

 

[SavedByGrace]

This allegation is false:

John 10:28. κἀγὼ ζωὴν αἰώνιον δίδωμι αὐτοῖς· καὶ οὐ μὴ ἀπόλωνται εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα, καὶ οὐχ ἁρπάσει. (TR1550)

John 10:28. κἀγὼ δίδωμι αὐτοῖς ζωὴν αἰώνιον καὶ οὐ μὴ ἀπόλωνται εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα καὶ οὐχ ἁρπάσει τις αὐτὰ ἐκ τῆς χειρός μου. (NA28)

John 10:28. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one will snatch them out of my hand. (NRSV)

John 10:28 and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. (RSV)

John 10:28 and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. (ASV)

John 10:28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. (NASB, 1995)

John 8:35. ὁ δὲ δοῦλος οὐ μένει ἐν τῇ οἰκίᾳ εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα, ὁ υἱὸς μένει εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα. (NA28)

John 8:35. The slave does not have a permanent place in the household; the son has a place there forever. (NASB, 1995) [εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα = “unto the age”].

John 8:51. “ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, ἐάν τις τὸν ἐμὸν λόγον τηρήσῃ, θάνατον οὐ μὴ θεωρήσῃ εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα” (NA28)



No one disagrees with this fact. However, when John 10:27-29 is compared with the parallel passage in Isa. 43:1-28, we see that a Christian’s security is conditional upon his remaining in Christ. Jesus is not a jailor or a prison warden who has thrown away the key! Countless Christians have forsaken Christ and everything that being in Christ involves—just as the Israelites forsook God and their very security in Him!

Isaiah 43:13. I am God, and also henceforth I am He;
there is no one who can deliver from my hand;
I work and who can hinder it?

Isaiah 43:28. Therefore I profaned the princes of the sanctuary,
I delivered Jacob to utter destruction,
and Israel to reviling. (NRSV)

you obviously don't read any Greek!

The words you highlighted, "eternal life" are in the Greek, ζωὴν αἰώνιον, which I have pointed out, is that the Greek, "εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα", is not translated into English! The English is, FOR EVER

"they will never, not ever perish FOR EVER", is the force of what John actually writes!

 

[SavedByGrace]

It shows what the sin leading to death actually is, as unforgiven sin leads to death. The passages you quoted beg the question, "What IS that sin?" And Matt. 12:32 answers that question.

not really!

I have posted other passages in the OP, that clearly show what this SIN TO DEATH is. This is the REJECTION of Jesus Christ, as SAVIOUR and LORD, by those who WERE truly born again

The passages in Hebrews are NOT only for the Jewish Christians, but for ALL. Surely, what is true for the Jewish believer, is also true for the non Jewish believer? Is a Jew who is truly converted to Jesus Christ, CAN indeed be LOST, then this must also apply to any true believer!

 

[Craigbythesea]

None of the English translations you quote translate the complete Greek text. The words "εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα" are omitted!


The language used by Jesus Christ is not casual, but very much emphatic, and strong, to ASSURE that "IN HIM" the believer is SECURE!

you obviously don't read any Greek!

The words you highlighted, "eternal life" are in the Greek, ζωὴν αἰώνιον, which I have pointed out, is that the Greek, "εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα", is not translated into English! The English is, FOR EVER

"they will never, not ever perish FOR EVER", is the force of what John actually writes!

I now understand what you were trying to say in post #45. You did not mean that “The words ‘εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα’ are omitted” from the Greek text, but that they are not translated in the NRSV, etc. But that is also untrue:

John 10:28. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one will snatch them out of my hand. (NRSV)

John 10:28. κἀγὼ δίδωμι αὐτοῖς ζωὴν αἰώνιον καὶ οὐ μὴ ἀπόλωνται εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα καὶ οὐχ ἁρπάσει τις αὐτὰ ἐκ τῆς χειρός μου. (NA28)

We see here that the words εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα are translated using the English word “never” even though they literally mean “unto the age.” However, what is important in John 10:28 is that Jesus is quoting Isa. 43:13.

13. I am God, and also henceforth I am He;
there is no one who can deliver from my hand;
I work and who can hinder it?

But, keep reading to the end of the chapter,

14. Thus says the Lord,
your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel:
For your sake I will send to Babylon
and break down all the bars,
and the shouting of the Chaldeans will be turned to lamentation.
15. I am the Lord, your Holy One,
the Creator of Israel, your King.
16. Thus says the Lord,
who makes a way in the sea,
a path in the mighty waters,
17. who brings out chariot and horse,
army and warrior;
they lie down, they cannot rise,
they are extinguished, quenched like a wick:
18. Do not remember the former things,
or consider the things of old.
19. I am about to do a new thing;
now it springs forth, do you not perceive it?
I will make a way in the wilderness
and rivers in the desert.
20. The wild animals will honor me,
the jackals and the ostriches;
for I give water in the wilderness,
rivers in the desert,
to give drink to my chosen people,
21. the people whom I formed for myself
so that they might declare my praise.
22. Yet you did not call upon me, O Jacob;
but you have been weary of me, O Israel!
23. You have not brought me your sheep for burnt offerings,
or honored me with your sacrifices.
I have not burdened you with offerings,
or wearied you with frankincense.
24. You have not bought me sweet cane with money,
or satisfied me with the fat of your sacrifices.
But you have burdened me with your sins;
you have wearied me with your iniquities.
25. I, I am He
who blots out your transgressions for my own sake,
and I will not remember your sins.
26. Accuse me, let us go to trial;
set forth your case, so that you may be proved right.
27. Your first ancestor sinned,and your interpreters transgressed against me.
28. Therefore I profaned the princes of the sanctuary,
I delivered Jacob to utter destruction,
and Israel to reviling.

Jesus is teaching about His sheep (a metaphor for His believers), saying

27. My sheep hear my voice. I know them, and they follow me.
28. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one will snatch them out of my hand.

All three verbs in v. 27 are in the indicative mood and the present tense. The sheep are hearing His voice; He is knowing them; and they are following Him. The verb “give” in v. 28 is also in the indicative mood and the present tense. He is giving these sheep, the sheep that are hearing Him and following Him, a promise! However, the sheep who quit hearing Him and following Him exclude themselves from the promise, as did the Israelites who had been in the hand of God but removed themselves from it!

 

[Van]

(1 John 5:13 ) Ταῦτα ἔγραψα ὑμῖν, ἵνα εἰδῆτε ὅτι ζωὴν ἔχετε αἰώνιον, τοῖς πιστεύουσιν εἰς τὸ ὄνομα τοῦ υἱοῦ τοῦ θεοῦ. (NA28)

Notice especially these words, “ζωὴν ἔχετε αἰώνιον, τοῖς πιστεύουσιν” where the word ἔχετε is in the present tense (NOT the future tense) and that the word πιστεύουσιν is a present participle speaking of the present rather than the future.

1 John 5:13. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life. (NRSV)

John is writing to believers who are presently believing in the name of the Son of God and telling them that they presently have eternal life—with nothing being said of the future!

Did I say "may know" was in the future tense?

The verb "may know" indicates a possible outcome, rather than an existing outcome. Thus is consistent with 1 John 5:16 with "brother" referring to someone in an organizational relationship, either family, or ethnic, or professing believer.​

Thus once again, , that you may know that you "have" eternal life. The verse addresses the possibility that someone would know they have (in the present) eternal life. DUH

 

[Van]

1 John 5:16 (NASB)
If anyone sees his brother sinning not leading to death, he shall ask and God will, for him, give life to those who commit sin not leading t o death. There is sin to death; I am not saying that he should ask about that.

The OP claims that brother must mean a person already given eternal life, rather than a relation, such as a professing member of his local church, but this view is precluded. For a sin does not cause "death" immediately, but the condemnation results in the loss of life when judgement occurs at physical death. Thus any sin will not lead to death for those already given life when they were made alive together with Christ spiritually during their physical life. However a "professing believer" would not already have eternal life, and thus can be forgiven. However, a professing believer not having eternal life cannot obtain that life if he or she is continues to commit the sin leading to death, which is rejection of Christ and His gospel.

 

[SavedByGrace]

1 John 5:16 (NASB)
If anyone sees his brother sinning not leading to death, he shall ask and God will, for him, give life to those who commit sin not leading t o death. There is sin to death; I am not saying that he should ask about that.

The OP claims that brother must mean a person already given eternal life, rather than a relation, such as a professing member of his local church, but this view is precluded. For a sin does not cause "death" immediately, but the condemnation results in the loss of life when judgement occurs at physical death. Thus any sin will not lead to death for those already given life when they were made alive together with Christ spiritually during their physical life. However a "professing believer" would not already have eternal life, and thus can be forgiven. However, a professing believer not having eternal life cannot obtain that life if he or she is continues to commit the sin leading to death, which is rejection of Christ and His gospel.[/QUOTE

You simply can't understand what the passage is saying

It is absolutely clear that BROTHER is a born again Christian. Period

 

[37818]

However, a professing believer not having eternal life . . .

1 John 5:12, . . . and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
Romans 8:9, . . . Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

 

[Van]

Van said: ↑
1 John 5:16 (NASB)
If anyone sees his brother sinning not leading to death, he shall ask and God will, for him, give life to those who commit sin not leading t o death. There is sin to death; I am not saying that he should ask about that.

The OP claims that brother must mean a person already given eternal life, rather than a relation, such as a professing member of his local church, but this view is precluded. For a sin does not cause "death" immediately, but the condemnation results in the loss of life when judgement occurs at physical death. Thus any sin will not lead to death for those already given life when they were made alive together with Christ spiritually during their physical life. However a "professing believer" would not already have eternal life, and thus can be forgiven. However, a professing believer not having eternal life cannot obtain that life if he or she is continues to commit the sin leading to death, which is rejection of Christ and His gospel​

You simply can't understand what the passage is saying

It is absolutely clear that BROTHER is a born again Christian. Period

Note the absence of any address of the issue, but just more ad homenim and false assertion.

Why does "brother" not refer to someone who have received eternal life? Because 1 John 5:16 says God will give life!!!! So the "brother" could not at that time "have eternal life." This is obvious.