Sin Unto Death

[Brother Bob]

I know you are. I know your heart. God is Truth and, in my understanding, there is a limit to His mercy regarding His "law"/truth. Dr Rogers used to say (his analogy is to a son that won't quit fighting with others), "At last, His only punishment is to bring us home." I believe that. How many people do you know who were "called home early?"

Nothing wrong. I respect and covet your position as a Christian leader. My nephew -- same. But sadly, in some respects, you are 'holy' ---- separated. In many cases lately, I have come to view "church" as a "government" with a 10% "tax" to support a big beaurocracy whose "projects" are not "on my heart/spirit." I'm in a new church now with new missions, etc. I am praying that it will be as it once was. I covet your prayers too.

Look at you! "Where have I gone wrong?"

No, I would warn people long before they are on their deathbed of the 'sin unto death!' And when I did speak to a friend dying of breast cancer, I did not "rub it in" that she hadn't had an X-ray in 5 years. Friend, I spoke to her about what death and heaven are like. That it is her "graduation" -- her "prison break" -- her short struggle for an eternity of joy!

Where have YOU gone wrong?

skypair

BBob,

[/quote]

I pray the Lord will bless you in your travel Sky. I think we are way too personal in this discussion. The point of the whole passage is "what did they fall from", if they could. I once again will say, the passage is just showing us how impossible it is for a child of God to "fall" from enlightenment, Holy Ghost, Good fruits of the Lord.
That is what chastisement is for, to keep us in line, so we don't fall.

2Pe 1:10Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

God Bless Sky,

BBob,

 

[skypair]

I just think you are misreading the passage of what they fell from. No where does it say, nor can you prove they only lost fellowship with the brethren.

I'm going to give you the night to study and pray about it, Bob. I know you called out your "first responders" on this one -- the FLESH.

His discourse is to BELIEVERS, right (6:1)? His assertion is that some cannot "repent again." Is that true or false? If true, then if they repented already, it is impossible to repent again unto those first principles because they are already saved. What they must do, then , by necessity, is repent of their apostacy. That they CAN do -- just like the adulterer in Corinth.

Bob, we have spoken on this before. It is good it comes up again. Establish it in your mind --- BELIEVERS are forgiven of ALL sins. If a believer sins, they need HELP, not condemnation (as you are giving). If you still feel like you need to "control" others behavior such that they are either condemned/excommunicated or "pure," that burden is on you, not me.

skypair

 

[skypair]

2Pe 1:10Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

And what if you don't "give diligence," Bob. Lose your salvation? Cut off from any godly help? Suppose you are like David -- adultery! What then, Bob? According to you, DEATH! Is that it? "Burned?" No way back? Kaput!

No. Eternal glory but not present glory. What happens to the pastor that divorces and remarries? No privileges, right? But NOT no salvation, right?

skypair

 

[Brother Bob]

And what if you don't "give diligence," Bob. Lose your salvation? Cut off from any godly help? Suppose you are like David -- adultery! What then, Bob? According to you, DEATH! Is that it? "Burned?" No way back? Kaput!

No. Eternal glory but not present glory. What happens to the pastor that divorces and remarries? No privileges, right? But NOT no salvation, right?

skypair

First of all, I do not compare the Grace Covenant with the Law Covenant.
Second, I believe in a stong God that is able to not lose one.

Third, I do believe there are many among the Children, that are of the devil, that came in to seek out our liberty and take peace from us.

No, I do not uphold a Pastor who is caught molesting little boys. I don't believe he was ever a Pastor of God.

Somehow, I believe this:

Peter 1:1
4: To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5: Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
6: Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
7: That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
8: Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
9: Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.


BBob,

 

[EdSutton]

Actually, according to Paul, there was only 'a sin unto death'... only one. 'a' is singular, not plural.

We know the spiritual death is caused by rejection of the Lord and His shed blood. This rejection is evidenced by many sins (see Gal. 5, 1 Cor. 6, and Rev. 21).

What is the sin unto death? I do not believe it is spiritual for this reason, it is already disclosed in the Word of God that rejection of Christ will guarantee the second death.

So, it must be physical. Paul did not disclose what it was though. 'There is a sin unto death, I dare not say what it is'.

I believe you meant to say John. While Paul does use the phrase in the KJV of "sin unto death", he doesn't mention "a sin unto death". That is found in I John 5: 16, not in Rom. 6:16, which happen to be the only two times the exact phrase of "sin unto death" can be found in Scripture in the KJV. I am going to include four versions in this quote of these two passages.

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. (Rom. 6:15-18, - KJV)

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. (Rom. 6:15-18, - NKJV)

15What then? (A)Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? (B)May it never be!
16Do you not (C)know that when you present yourselves to someone as (D)slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of (E)sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
17 But (F)thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that (G)form of teaching to which you were committed,
18 and having been (H)freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. (Rom. 6:15-18, - NASB)

15 What then? Should we sin because we are not under law but under grace? (A) Absolutely not! (B) 16 Do you not know that if you offer yourselves to someone [a] as obedient slaves, (C) you are slaves of that one you obey (D) —either of sin leading to death (E) or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But thank God that, although you used to be slaves of sin, (F) you obeyed from the heart that pattern of teaching you were entrusted to, (G) 18 and having been liberated from sin, (H) you became enslaved to righteousness. (Rom. 6:15-18, - HCSB)

15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him. 16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. (I Jn. 5:15-17, - KJV)

15 And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him.
16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death. (I Jn. 5:15-17, - NKJV)

15 And if we know that He hears us in whatever we ask, (A)we know that we have the requests which we have asked from Him.
16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, (B)he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death (C)There is a sin leading to death; (D)I do not say that he should make request for this. 17 (E)All unrighteousness is sin, and (F)there is a sin not leading to death. (I Jn. 5:15-17, - NASB)

15 And if we know that He hears whatever we ask, (A) we know that we have what we have asked Him for. (B)
16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin that does not bring death, he should ask, and God [a] will give life to him—to those who commit sin that doesn't bring death. There is sin [b] that brings death. I am not saying he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin that does not bring death. (I Jn. 5:15-17, - HCSB)

Overall, I agree with this above assessment by standingfirminChrist, although I have not been posting as often, lately, having been staying fairly busy.

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

Sorry, double.

 

[EdSutton]

Well, if it is physical then why?

1. Is it to keep a Christian from committing the sin again and again. If so, why would the death save him from the second death, being he still has the sin unto death against him, for he did not repent of it, not could he repent of it for the Lord said "not to even pray for him" and to renew him unto repentance again is impossible. So, you would have to believe in a fall from Grace to believe it is physical.

2. If it is Spiritual, then it could mean any sin that is not repented of, for it would be the sin that brought the second death if not repented of. But if it is a Christian that commits a sin unto death, then again you would have to believe in a fall.

3. If the only purpose of the scripture is only telling us how impossible it is for a Christian to commit a "sin unto death", then it would make sense to me. "if it were possible for a someone who has tasted of the good fruits of the Lord, and if he were to fall, to renew him unto repentance again is impossible". IMO

1Cr 6:9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

1Cr 6:10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.


1Cr 6:11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. (Don't do those things anymore, not a ticket to do them)

You are assuming that a Christian can actually commit a "sin unto death", when the scripture starts off with "if it were possible", in other words it is not possible.
BBob,

Actually, there is nothing said about whether or not this is "possible" in the context of "sin unto death". "If it were possible" occurs as an exact phrase five times in the KJV in Matt. 24:24 and Mk. 13:22 which speak of a deceiving of the elect in the prophetic future; Mk. 14:35 where Jesus is praying in the garden; Ac. 20:16 where Paul wanted to get to Jerusalem for the feast; and Ac. 27:39 where Paul was about to be shipwrecked at Malta.

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

I do not know of any New Testament instructions, though, which would enable us to determine exactly if a sin is a sin unto death.

Exactly. I kinda' assume if one is still breathing, they haven't commited the sin unto death, apparently. I'm still breathing at the minute, so I assume I haven't committed this sin. The closest thing I can find in Scripture to this is probably the case of Annanais and Saphirra, when confronted by the apostles.

Both lied; both died, right then and there. I would say that was, at least in that case, - "the sin unto death".

Ed

 

[Brother Bob]

Exactly. I kinda' assume if one is still breathing, they haven't commited the sin unto death, apparently. I'm still breathing at the minute, so I assume I haven't committed this sin. The closest thing I can find in Scripture to this is probably the case of Annanais and Saphirra, when confronted by the apostles.

Both lied; both died, right then and there. I would say that was, at least in that case, - "the sin unto death".

Ed

What if you have come to know God and glorify Him not, have you died dead in sin and still walking around???

No mention of "sin unto death" in the following passage either, you think it might be a "sin unto death"??

Mat 12:31¶Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy [against] the [Holy] Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

BBob,

 

[skypair]

First of all, I do not compare the Grace Covenant with the Law Covenant.

That is usually good advice though God did "sanctify" them which is what we are talking about. But He did it through law instead of through grace.

Second, I believe in a stong God that is able to not lose one.

Which gives you, as I remarked, 1 option if someone fails: 1) they were never saved. And so I would assume you do exactly what Paul says don't in Heb 6 -- "run them by" the first principles of "repentance again" and put Christ to an open shame. Or do you just give up on them as "non-elect?"

Third, I do believe there are many among the Children, that are of the devil, that came in to seek out our liberty and take peace from us.

Ah! So you take the "give up" option? Is THAT why we broke off our conversation last time?

Seriously, Bob, there is a "procedure" that YOU are supposed to use when believers are found to be in sin -- 2Cor 7:9-11. God wants to RESTORE the prodigal, not disinherit or deny any relationship to him. The Spirit wants to shine the light on the filth so that the SPOUSE can find the evidence of her marriage again -- the pure silver coin of a complete Christian life. And Jesus obviously leaves the 99 for the one stray sheep that lost its way.

I am actually quite saddened by your view and pray that you never are overwhelmed by temptation as the laity often are. I pray you never stop growing so that you never become blind, near-sighted, and forget you are saved (2Pet 1:9) as many not engaged in the ministry do from, time to time.

No, I do not uphold a Pastor who is caught molesting little boys. I don't believe he was ever a Pastor of God.

Why do you deal with this sin rather than the one I mentioned -- the divorced, remarried pastor. Would the fall have to be that extreme (pedophilia) to qualify for your "never was saved" list? Where would you "draw the line?"

Somehow, I believe this:

Peter 1:1
4: To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5: Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Notice -- the faith is revealed in heaven, not necessarily on earth. I know people who got saved but still couldn't get out of the pit -- the situation -- they came to Jesus from (bad marriage for instance). Hence, life seemingly goes on in the flesh though in the spirit, all is new.

6: Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
7: That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Here's the part I'm talkin' about! The trials of your faith -- and overcoming them being more precious than gold!

What did Paul say? "I find a law of sin in my members such that I do what I desire not to do?" The sin is committed already -- was he lost too? Was he to "repent again" through Christ's sacrifice? maybe this would be a good ad for taking the Catholic Eucharist, eh? No, the struggle with sin -- not temptation, sin -- goes on despite being saved.

skypair

 

[skypair]

Ed,

I believe it is "a" sin unto death because, though there be many sins in one's life, only one of them proves to be fatal a the time. A person may have weakened their bodies in many ways (I'm praying just now for a friend who has many athletic injuries come back to haunt him but it is his overweight that will kill him if he doesn't change/repent). For him, "gluttony" could be "sin unto death" although it is not yet. He is getting lapband surgery soon.

That's how I picture it with what I know about scripture.

skypair

 

[Brother Bob]

That is usually good advice though God did "sanctify" them which is what we are talking about. But He did it through law instead of through grace.

Which gives you, as I remarked, 1 option if someone fails: 1) they were never saved. And so I would assume you do exactly what Paul says don't in Heb 6 -- "run them by" the first principles of "repentance again" and put Christ to an open shame. Or do you just give up on them as "non-elect?"

Ah! So you take the "give up" option? Is THAT why we broke off our conversation last time?

Seriously, Bob, there is a "procedure" that YOU are supposed to use when believers are found to be in sin -- 2Cor 7:9-11. God wants to RESTORE the prodigal, not disinherit or deny any relationship to him. The Spirit wants to shine the light on the filth so that the SPOUSE can find the evidence of her marriage again -- the pure silver coin of a complete Christian life. And Jesus obviously leaves the 99 for the one stray sheep that lost its way.

I am actually quite saddened by your view and pray that you never are overwhelmed by temptation as the laity often are. I pray you never stop growing so that you never become blind, near-sighted, and forget you are saved (2Pet 1:9) as many not engaged in the ministry do from, time to time.

Why do you deal with this sin rather than the one I mentioned -- the divorced, remarried pastor. Would the fall have to be that extreme (pedophilia) to qualify for your "never was saved" list? Where would you "draw the line?"

1Jo 5:16If any man see his brother sin a sin [which is] not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

Notice -- the faith is revealed in heaven, not necessarily on earth. I know people who got saved but still couldn't get out of the pit -- the situation -- they came to Jesus from (bad marriage for instance). Hence, life seemingly goes on in the flesh though in the spirit, all is new.

Not the faith revealed in Heaven, but the saved. Why would you need faith in Heaven?

Here's the part I'm talkin' about! The trials of your faith -- and overcoming them being more precious than gold!

What did Paul say? "I find a law of sin in my members such that I do what I desire not to do?" The sin is committed already -- was he lost too? Was he to "repent again" through Christ's sacrifice? maybe this would be a good ad for taking the Catholic Eucharist, eh? No, the struggle with sin -- not temptation, sin -- goes on despite being saved.

Trust in the Lord and He will deliver you out of your temptations. Quit putting so much faith in your own ability.

2Cr 12:9And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

skypair

2Cr 12:9And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

Hbr 10:39But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Either you got it, or you don't. God's church is clean and not made up of adulterers, killers, pedophiles, rapists, etc. It has been washed in the "blood of the Lamb", and His blood was not wasted, but is for the saving of man from sin, not in sin.

2Pe 2:14Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:

2Pe 2:17These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever

2:21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
BBob,

 

[EdSutton]

What if you have come to know God and glorify Him not, have you died dead in sin and still walking around???

No mention of "sin unto death" in the following passage either, you think it might be a "sin unto death"??

Mat 12:31¶Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy [against] the [Holy] Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

BBob,

The first pharase you use, which seems to be paraphrased from Rom. 1:21, refers to those who were unsaved, and did not

8 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality,[c] wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving,[d] unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.
Romans 2

God’s Righteous Judgment

1 Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. 2 But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. 3 And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:[e] 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God. (Rom. 1:18- 2:11 - NKJV)

Since this doesn't say this is specifically "a sin unto death", here, I won't either. You might also note that this doesn't say that 'one has come to know God'. but that "they knew God", referring I think, to a basic enlightenment that is given to every man when born into the world in the revelation found in nature, although this revelation is certainly incomplete. (Jn. 1:9, Ecc. 12:13-14; Gen. 18:25; Ps. 19:1-8; 97:6-7, etc.) There remains and needs to be more 'revelation' than this, such as the conviction of the Holy Spirit, etc., and definitely involves 'faith'. (Jn. 16:7-11; Heb 11:6; Gen. 15:6; Hab. 2:4, etc.)

That said, however, since the Bible seems to make a specific distinction between "a sin unto death", and this blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which is often spoken of as being "the unforgiveable sin", I will also.
The "sin unto death", as far as I can determine, at least, is never defined specifically, as to what it is, or may indeeed be, in Scripture. Why not merely take this for what it says?

Requires a lot less "Bible contortions" and "theological gymnastics" this way. And fewer contortions make it much easier on my arthritis!

Ed

 

[Brother Bob]

Since the Bible seems to make a distinction between "a sin unto death", and this blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which is often spoken of as being "the unforgiveable sin", I will also.
The "sin unto death", as far as I can determine, at least, is never defined specifically, as to what it is, or may indeeed be, in Scripture. Why not merely take this for what it says?

Requires a lot less "Bible contortions" and "theological gymnastics" this way. And fewer contortions make it much easier on my arthritis!

Ed

So you will not even say blasphemy against the Holy Ghost is a "sin unto death". jeepers!!

Tts 2:1¶But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:


BBob,

 

[skypair]

Sky: Notice -- the faith is revealed in heaven, not necessarily on earth.

BBob: Not the faith revealed in Heaven, but the saved. Why would you need faith in Heaven?

The verse speaks of the the faith of the saved being revealed (gold, silver, precious stones) in heaven, Bob. Perhaps you misread what I said.

Sky: Here's the part I'm talkin' about! The trials of your faith -- and overcoming them being more precious than gold!

BBob: Trust in the Lord and He will deliver you out of your temptations. Quit putting so much faith in your own ability.

Huh? How do you conclude that I don't?? Honestly, Bob, you're not giving me a practical "prescription" for holiness. Read 2Cor 7:9-11. You got "little kids" in Christ who need this rather than your condemnation or threats thereof.

skypair

 

[Brother Bob]

The verse speaks of the the faith of the saved being revealed (gold, silver, precious stones) in heaven, Bob. Perhaps you misread what I said.

Huh? How do you conclude that I don't?? Honestly, Bob, you're not giving me a practical "prescription" for holiness. Read 2Cor 7:9-11. You got "little kids" in Christ who need this rather than your condemnation or threats thereof.

skypair

1 John 3:
6: Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7: Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8: He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9: Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10: In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

What is your answer for these scriptures Sky???


BBob,

 

[EdSutton]

So you will not even say blasphemy against the Holy Ghost is a "sin unto death". jeepers!!

Tts 2:1¶But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:


BBob,

"jeepers!!" or no, The Scripture did not say this. I had a long post composed that I managed to help the computer eat, so will have to skip it, for now. But I'll simply say this. Only a believer ("his brother") is capable of committing this "sin leading unto death"; the unbelievers are already 100% completely "dead in trespasses and sins", and are "condemned already". (Eph. 2:1-8; Jn. 3:18)

I simply do not think it is possible for any believer to ever commit "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit", in this church age, since the Holy Spirit is already 'within' the believer, he or she has been "baptized in the Holy Spirit", "sealed with the Spirit", and received "the 'earnest' (quarantee) of the Spirit" - the Spirit makes intercession for us with the Father, and since the Holy Spirit is fully God, He is not going to 'condemn' Himself, by so allowing, IMO. (Various scriptures, of which I will quote but one)

16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. (Jn. 14:16-17 - NKJV)

Gotta' run, for now. Don't have more time to play at the moment.

Ed

 

[Brother Bob]

"jeepers!!" or no, The Scripture did not say this. I had a long post composed that I managed to help the computer eat, so will have to skip it, for now. But I'll simply say this. Only a believer ("his brother") is capable of committing this "sin leading unto death"; the unbelievers are already 100% completely "dead in trespasses and sins", and are "condemned already". (Eph. 2:1-8; Jn. 3:18)
Because the scripture calls one a "brother" does not mean they were for sure saved. Also, I doubt if you can really say for sure what is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost and everything it entails.

Sin unto death. It does not say it has to be a believer. I believe all sin are a sin unto death, if not repented of. If you believe that Christians can commit adultery, etc as you "amened" once, then I think you do believe a Christian can commit a sin unto death to which there is no repentance, so if they commit such a sin, then they fall from their own salvation, to which I do not believe they can fall, therefore cannot commit such a sin.


I simply do not think it is possible for any believer to ever commit "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit", in this church age, since the Holy Spirit is already 'within' the believer, he or she has been "baptized in the Holy Spirit", "sealed with the Spirit", and received "the 'earnest' (quarantee) of the Spirit" - the Spirit makes intercession for us with the Father, and since the Holy Spirit is fully God, He is not going to 'condemn' Himself, by so allowing, IMO. (Various scriptures, of which I will quote but one)Gotta' run, for now. Don't have more time to play at the moment.

Again, if you believe Christians can commit adultery etc, then I don't know why you don't believe they can commit blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, both will send them to Hell.

Ed

For that matter; I do not believe someone, a believer can do the following either. I do think this scripture is talking about a believer, but how impossible it is for them to commit such an act.

Heb. 6:

1: Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2: Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3: And this will we do, if God permit.
4: For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5: And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6: If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

I would like to know why you believe a Christian cannot commit Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, but can commit adulter, murder, pedophiler, rapist, etc and still be saved????

What keeps the Christian from being able to commit blasphemy against the Holy Ghost?? Do you know??


BBob,

 

[skypair]

1 John 3:
6: Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7: Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8: He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9: Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10: In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

What is your answer for these scriptures Sky???

Good one, Bobby! Most preachers will tell you that 3:6 means "does not practice sin." "Abide in sin" Bob. Does not resort to God. Never seeks God in his "hour of need."

3:7 -- flip side. Does the same person do righteously by confessing to God -- by seeking help.

Related: Let me ask you -- was the adulterer in 1Cor 5 saved or lost? He was still trying, wanting to fellowship with the brethren, was he not? Is this not the NT case of "David?" What does Paul say, Gal 6:1? You make an OT-NT distinction that is artificial, Bob. Both were saved -- both fell -- they were NOT lost/unbelievers.

3:8 -- How are YOU going to "destroy the works of the devil" if you just hand such over to Satan?? "Church discipline" is in order to correct the fallen. 1Cor 5:11 is the "prescription!" Don't take communion with such -- not until they repent. Isn't that what the verse says? Bob, I realize these are all well-intentioned mistakes on you part. But please seek the heart of Christ in this. Are you the one who is going to condemn, Rom 8:34? Can you "pluck them out of [Christ's] hand," John 10:28?

3:9 -- "His seed." What is that, Bob? The "incorruptible word" in his/her soul. Can you "abort" his/her "rebirth? Be a "father," Bob, not an "abortionist!" What is their profession??? In the midst of this sin, do they profess Christ? You cannot go with your "gut feeling" -- you are obliged by God to go with what they profess as a start to helping them.

3:10 -- "loveth his brother." Do I need to expound on this?

skypair

 

[Brother Bob]

Good one, Bobby! Most preachers will tell you that 3:6 means "does not practice sin." "Abide in sin" Bob. Does not resort to God. Never seeks God in his "hour of need."

3:7 -- flip side. Does the same person do righteously by confessing to God -- by seeking help.

Related: Let me ask you -- was the adulterer in 1Cor 5 saved or lost? He was still trying, wanting to fellowship with the brethren, was he not? Is this not the NT case of "David?" What does Paul say, Gal 6:1? You make an OT-NT distinction that is artificial, Bob. Both were saved -- both fell -- they were NOT lost/unbelievers.

3:8 -- How are YOU going to "destroy the works of the devil" if you just hand such over to Satan?? "Church discipline" is in order to correct the fallen. 1Cor 5:11 is the "prescription!" Don't take communion with such -- not until they repent. Isn't that what the verse says? Bob, I realize these are all well-intentioned mistakes on you part. But please seek the heart of Christ in this. Are you the one who is going to condemn, Rom 8:34? Can you "pluck them out of [Christ's] hand," John 10:28?

3:9 -- "His seed." What is that, Bob? The "incorruptible word" in his/her soul. Can you "abort" his/her "rebirth? Be a "father," Bob, not an "abortionist!" What is their profession??? In the midst of this sin, do they profess Christ? You cannot go with your "gut feeling" -- you are obliged by God to go with what they profess as a start to helping them.

3:10 -- "loveth his brother." Do I need to expound on this?

skypair

2Cr 6:14Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

Rom 8:13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

It is not easy, but someone has to do it.

1Cr 5:11But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

1Cr 5:12For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

1Cr 5:13But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

2Pe 2:1¶But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

2Pe 2:2And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

1Ti 3:4One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;


1Ti 3:5(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)



BBob,