Sin Unto Death

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I pray the Lord will bless you in your travel Sky. I think we are way too personal in this discussion. The point of the whole passage is "what did they fall from", if they could. I once again will say, the passage is just showing us how impossible it is for a child of God to "fall" from enlightenment, Holy Ghost, Good fruits of the Lord.
That is what chastisement is for, to keep us in line, so we don't fall.

2Pe 1:10Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

God Bless Sky,

BBob,

 

I'm going to give you the night to study and pray about it, Bob. I know you called out your "first responders" on this one -- the FLESH.

His discourse is to BELIEVERS, right (6:1)? His assertion is that some cannot "repent again." Is that true or false? If true, then if they repented already, it is impossible to repent again unto those first principles because they are already saved. What they must do, then , by necessity, is repent of their apostacy. That they CAN do -- just like the adulterer in Corinth.

Bob, we have spoken on this before. It is good it comes up again. Establish it in your mind --- BELIEVERS are forgiven of ALL sins. If a believer sins, they need HELP, not condemnation (as you are giving). If you still feel like you need to "control" others behavior such that they are either condemned/excommunicated or "pure," that burden is on you, not me.

skypair

 

And what if you don't "give diligence," Bob. Lose your salvation? Cut off from any godly help? Suppose you are like David -- adultery! What then, Bob? According to you, DEATH! Is that it? "Burned?" No way back? Kaput!

No. Eternal glory but not present glory. What happens to the pastor that divorces and remarries? No privileges, right? But NOT no salvation, right?

skypair

 

First of all, I do not compare the Grace Covenant with the Law Covenant.
Second, I believe in a stong God that is able to not lose one.

Third, I do believe there are many among the Children, that are of the devil, that came in to seek out our liberty and take peace from us.

No, I do not uphold a Pastor who is caught molesting little boys. I don't believe he was ever a Pastor of God.

Somehow, I believe this:

Peter 1:1
4: To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5: Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
6: Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
7: That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
8: Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
9: Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.


BBob,

 

I believe you meant to say John. While Paul does use the phrase in the KJV of "sin unto death", he doesn't mention "a sin unto death". That is found in I John 5: 16, not in Rom. 6:16, which happen to be the only two times the exact phrase of "sin unto death" can be found in Scripture in the KJV. I am going to include four versions in this quote of these two passages.

Overall, I agree with this above assessment by standingfirminChrist, although I have not been posting as often, lately, having been staying fairly busy.

Ed

 

Sorry, double.

 

Actually, there is nothing said about whether or not this is "possible" in the context of "sin unto death". "If it were possible" occurs as an exact phrase five times in the KJV in Matt. 24:24 and Mk. 13:22 which speak of a deceiving of the elect in the prophetic future; Mk. 14:35 where Jesus is praying in the garden; Ac. 20:16 where Paul wanted to get to Jerusalem for the feast; and Ac. 27:39 where Paul was about to be shipwrecked at Malta.

Ed

 

Exactly. I kinda' assume if one is still breathing, they haven't commited the sin unto death, apparently. I'm still breathing at the minute, so I assume I haven't committed this sin. The closest thing I can find in Scripture to this is probably the case of Annanais and Saphirra, when confronted by the apostles.

Both lied; both died, right then and there. I would say that was, at least in that case, - "the sin unto death".

Ed

 

What if you have come to know God and glorify Him not, have you died dead in sin and still walking around???

No mention of "sin unto death" in the following passage either, you think it might be a "sin unto death"??

Mat 12:31¶Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy [against] the [Holy] Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

BBob,

 

That is usually good advice though God did "sanctify" them which is what we are talking about. But He did it through law instead of through grace.

Which gives you, as I remarked, 1 option if someone fails: 1) they were never saved. And so I would assume you do exactly what Paul says don't in Heb 6 -- "run them by" the first principles of "repentance again" and put Christ to an open shame. Or do you just give up on them as "non-elect?"

Ah! So you take the "give up" option? Is THAT why we broke off our conversation last time?

Seriously, Bob, there is a "procedure" that YOU are supposed to use when believers are found to be in sin -- 2Cor 7:9-11. God wants to RESTORE the prodigal, not disinherit or deny any relationship to him. The Spirit wants to shine the light on the filth so that the SPOUSE can find the evidence of her marriage again -- the pure silver coin of a complete Christian life. And Jesus obviously leaves the 99 for the one stray sheep that lost its way.

I am actually quite saddened by your view and pray that you never are overwhelmed by temptation as the laity often are. I pray you never stop growing so that you never become blind, near-sighted, and forget you are saved (2Pet 1:9) as many not engaged in the ministry do from, time to time.

Why do you deal with this sin rather than the one I mentioned -- the divorced, remarried pastor. Would the fall have to be that extreme (pedophilia) to qualify for your "never was saved" list? Where would you "draw the line?"

Notice -- the faith is revealed in heaven, not necessarily on earth. I know people who got saved but still couldn't get out of the pit -- the situation -- they came to Jesus from (bad marriage for instance). Hence, life seemingly goes on in the flesh though in the spirit, all is new.

Here's the part I'm talkin' about! The trials of your faith -- and overcoming them being more precious than gold!

What did Paul say? "I find a law of sin in my members such that I do what I desire not to do?" The sin is committed already -- was he lost too? Was he to "repent again" through Christ's sacrifice? maybe this would be a good ad for taking the Catholic Eucharist, eh? No, the struggle with sin -- not temptation, sin -- goes on despite being saved.

skypair

 

Ed,

I believe it is "a" sin unto death because, though there be many sins in one's life, only one of them proves to be fatal a the time. A person may have weakened their bodies in many ways (I'm praying just now for a friend who has many athletic injuries come back to haunt him but it is his overweight that will kill him if he doesn't change/repent). For him, "gluttony" could be "sin unto death" although it is not yet. He is getting lapband surgery soon.

That's how I picture it with what I know about scripture.

skypair

 

2Cr 12:9And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

Hbr 10:39But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Either you got it, or you don't. God's church is clean and not made up of adulterers, killers, pedophiles, rapists, etc. It has been washed in the "blood of the Lamb", and His blood was not wasted, but is for the saving of man from sin, not in sin.

2Pe 2:14Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:

2Pe 2:17These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever

2:21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
BBob,

 

The first pharase you use, which seems to be paraphrased from Rom. 1:21, refers to those who were unsaved, and did not

Since this doesn't say this is specifically "a sin unto death", here, I won't either. You might also note that this doesn't say that 'one has come to know God'. but that "they knew God", referring I think, to a basic enlightenment that is given to every man when born into the world in the revelation found in nature, although this revelation is certainly incomplete. (Jn. 1:9, Ecc. 12:13-14; Gen. 18:25; Ps. 19:1-8; 97:6-7, etc.) There remains and needs to be more 'revelation' than this, such as the conviction of the Holy Spirit, etc., and definitely involves 'faith'. (Jn. 16:7-11; Heb 11:6; Gen. 15:6; Hab. 2:4, etc.)

That said, however, since the Bible seems to make a specific distinction between "a sin unto death", and this blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which is often spoken of as being "the unforgiveable sin", I will also.
The "sin unto death", as far as I can determine, at least, is never defined specifically, as to what it is, or may indeeed be, in Scripture. Why not merely take this for what it says?

Requires a lot less "Bible contortions" and "theological gymnastics" this way. And fewer contortions make it much easier on my arthritis!

Ed

 

So you will not even say blasphemy against the Holy Ghost is a "sin unto death". jeepers!!

Tts 2:1¶But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:


BBob,

 

The verse speaks of the the faith of the saved being revealed (gold, silver, precious stones) in heaven, Bob. Perhaps you misread what I said.

Huh? How do you conclude that I don't?? Honestly, Bob, you're not giving me a practical "prescription" for holiness. Read 2Cor 7:9-11. You got "little kids" in Christ who need this rather than your condemnation or threats thereof.

skypair

 

1 John 3:
6: Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7: Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8: He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9: Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10: In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

What is your answer for these scriptures Sky???


BBob,

 

"jeepers!!" or no, The Scripture did not say this. I had a long post composed that I managed to help the computer eat, so will have to skip it, for now. But I'll simply say this. Only a believer ("his brother") is capable of committing this "sin leading unto death"; the unbelievers are already 100% completely "dead in trespasses and sins", and are "condemned already". (Eph. 2:1-8; Jn. 3:18)

I simply do not think it is possible for any believer to ever commit "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit", in this church age, since the Holy Spirit is already 'within' the believer, he or she has been "baptized in the Holy Spirit", "sealed with the Spirit", and received "the 'earnest' (quarantee) of the Spirit" - the Spirit makes intercession for us with the Father, and since the Holy Spirit is fully God, He is not going to 'condemn' Himself, by so allowing, IMO. (Various scriptures, of which I will quote but one)

Gotta' run, for now. Don't have more time to play at the moment.

Ed

 

For that matter; I do not believe someone, a believer can do the following either. I do think this scripture is talking about a believer, but how impossible it is for them to commit such an act.

Heb. 6:

1: Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2: Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3: And this will we do, if God permit.
4: For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5: And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6: If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

I would like to know why you believe a Christian cannot commit Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, but can commit adulter, murder, pedophiler, rapist, etc and still be saved????

What keeps the Christian from being able to commit blasphemy against the Holy Ghost?? Do you know??


BBob,

 

Good one, Bobby! Most preachers will tell you that 3:6 means "does not practice sin." "Abide in sin" Bob. Does not resort to God. Never seeks God in his "hour of need."

3:7 -- flip side. Does the same person do righteously by confessing to God -- by seeking help.

Related: Let me ask you -- was the adulterer in 1Cor 5 saved or lost? He was still trying, wanting to fellowship with the brethren, was he not? Is this not the NT case of "David?" What does Paul say, Gal 6:1? You make an OT-NT distinction that is artificial, Bob. Both were saved -- both fell -- they were NOT lost/unbelievers.

3:8 -- How are YOU going to "destroy the works of the devil" if you just hand such over to Satan?? "Church discipline" is in order to correct the fallen. 1Cor 5:11 is the "prescription!" Don't take communion with such -- not until they repent. Isn't that what the verse says? Bob, I realize these are all well-intentioned mistakes on you part. But please seek the heart of Christ in this. Are you the one who is going to condemn, Rom 8:34? Can you "pluck them out of [Christ's] hand," John 10:28?

3:9 -- "His seed." What is that, Bob? The "incorruptible word" in his/her soul. Can you "abort" his/her "rebirth? Be a "father," Bob, not an "abortionist!" What is their profession??? In the midst of this sin, do they profess Christ? You cannot go with your "gut feeling" -- you are obliged by God to go with what they profess as a start to helping them.

3:10 -- "loveth his brother." Do I need to expound on this?

skypair

 

2Cr 6:14Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

Rom 8:13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

It is not easy, but someone has to do it.

1Cr 5:11But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

1Cr 5:12For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

1Cr 5:13But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

2Pe 2:1¶But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

2Pe 2:2And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

1Ti 3:4One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;


1Ti 3:5(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)



BBob,