Sincere question for catholics.

[BobRyan]

RCC Catechism -

1266 The Most Holy Trinity gives the baptized sanctifying grace, the grace of justification:
- enabling them to believe in God, to hope in him, and to love him through the theological virtues;
- giving them the power to live and act under the prompting of the Holy Spirit through the gifts of the Holy Spirit;
- allowing them to grow in goodness through the moral virtues.
Thus the whole organism of the Christian's supernatural life has its roots in Baptism.

One has to ask -- how is the infant USING that enablement to believe?

Is the position of the RC members here that infants "believe" after baptism (as in the day, the week, the month, or the year of baptism??)

One als has to note that this is "justification by nothing" because the infant is noncompusmentus - or it is "justifcation by magic sacrament".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Only in a model like the Baptist model can we have the essence of Baptism be "NOT the touching of water to flesh but the APPEAL TO GOD for a clean conscience".

Only in a model like the Baptist mode can we have the essence of Baptism be "NOT in something special about those peforming it - but rather the faith of the one receiving it".

Infant Baptism would certainly fall short of that.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

1250 Born with a fallen human nature and tainted by original sin, children also have need of the new birth in Baptism to be freed from the power of darkness and brought into the realm of the freedom of the children of God, to which all men are called.50 The sheer gratuitousness of the grace of salvation is particularly manifest in infant Baptism. The Church and the parents would deny a child the priceless grace of becoming a child of God were they not to confer Baptism shortly after birth.51

Question for Presbyterians and others that practice this kind of infant baptism - do you have the same "reasoning"? Do you consider the infant to be lost until Baptized and then saved "no matter - no faith"??

Are they born-again infants?

Are old things passed away - are they partaking of their "first love" in Christ?

Are they now - "by the Spirit putting to death the deads of the flesh"?? Romans 8.

Are they walking in the newness of life?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Living4Him]

Bob,

1255 For the grace of Baptism to unfold, the parents' help is important. So too is the role of the godfather and godmother, who must be firm believers, able and ready to help the newly baptized - child or adult on the road of Christian life.55 Their task is a truly ecclesial function (officium).56 The whole ecclesial community bears some responsibility for the development and safeguarding of the grace given at Baptism.

This statement means that when an infant is baptized, the parents and godparents are taking responsibility for ensuring that the baby is brought up in the faith.

It is frequently asked by non-believers how an infant is capable of making an act of faith in order to receive baptism. The response of the Catholic Church is to follow the Biblical example of Christ. Jesus accepted the faith of others as an occasion of salvation, forgiveness and healing of another. The Church has always done likewise. In infant baptism, the faith of parents and sponsors is required.

Mk 2:1-5
When Jesus returned to Capernaum ... They came bringing to him a paralytic carried by four men. Unable to get near Jesus because of the crowd, they opened up the roof above him. After they had broken through, they let down the mat on which the paralytic was lying. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Child, your sins are forgiven."
Mt 8:5-13
When he entered Capernaum, a centurion approached him and appealed to him, saying, "Lord, my servant is lying at home paralyzed, suffering dreadfully." He said to him, "I will come and cure him." The centurion said in reply, "Lord, I am not worthy to have you enter under my roof; only say the word and my servant will be healed." ... When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, "Amen, I say to you, in no one in Israel have I found such faith." ... And Jesus said to the centurion, "You may go; as you have believed, let it be done for you." And at that very hour (his) servant was healed.

Catholics also believe that because a child was baptized as an infant, it will be easier for the child to "come to God" when they are older because of

1266 The Most Holy Trinity gives the baptized sanctifying grace, the grace of justification:
- enabling them to believe in God, to hope in him, and to love him through the theological virtues;
- giving them the power to live and act under the prompting of the Holy Spirit through the gifts of the Holy Spirit;
- allowing them to grow in goodness through the moral virtues.
Thus the whole organism of the Christian's supernatural life has its roots in Baptism.

When a baptized infant is older (usually around the age of 14)they are free to decide whether they believe in the Christian faith that they have been taught. The child can choose to be confirmed or not.

1316 Confirmation perfects Baptismal grace; it is the sacrament which gives the Holy Spirit in order to root us more deeply in the divine filiation, incorporate us more firmly into Christ, strengthen our bond with the Church, associate us more closely with her mission, and help us bear witness to the Christian faith in words accompanied by deeds.

1319 A candidate for Confirmation who has attained the age of reason must profess the faith, be in the state of grace, have the intention of receiving the sacrament, and be prepared to assume the role of disciple and witness to Christ, both within the ecclesial community and in temporal affairs.

Here are the questions that are asked to the child receiving confirmation:

V. Do you reject Satan?
R. I do.
V. And all his works?
R. I do.
V. And all his empty promises?
R. I do.
V. Do you believe in God, the Father Almighty, creator of heaven and earth?
R. I do.
V. Do you believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,
who was born of the Virgin Mary
was crucified, died, and was buried,
rose from the dead,
and is now seated at the right hand of the Father?
R. I do.

Do you believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy Catholic church, the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting?
R. I do.

V. God, the all-powerful Father of our Lord Jesus Christ has given us a new birth by water and the Holy Spirit, and forgiven all our sins. May he also keep us faithful to our Lord Jesus Christ for ever and ever.

R. Amen.

To Catholics, infant baptism is a correlation to the Jewish circumcision . The male Jewish baby was circumcised at 8 days old. The baby could not profess a faith in the One True God, but the parents had the child circumcised in anticipation of being brought up in the faith.

 

[BobRyan]

It is frequently asked by non-believers how an infant is capable of making an act of faith in order to receive baptism. The response of the Catholic Church is to follow the Biblical example of Christ. Jesus accepted the faith of others as an occasion of salvation, forgiveness and healing of another. The Church has always done likewise. In infant baptism, the faith of parents and sponsors is required.

#1. There is not one case in all of scripture where Christ accepts the faith of a parent to save an infant!

#2. There is not one case in all of scripture where the faith of person-A is accepted on behalf of Person-B so that Person-B is now "A Christian" because Person-A "believed FOR him".

It is good Mormon theology - but poor Bible doctrine.

Mk 2:1-5
When Jesus returned to Capernaum ... They came bringing to him a paralytic carried by four men. Unable to get near Jesus because of the crowd, they opened up the roof above him. After they had broken through, they let down the mat on which the paralytic was lying. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Child, your sins are forgiven."

This is a good example where NO INFANT is involved and the man being forgiven is AWAKE, AWARE of his sins, RECEIVES the blessing by faith and thankful.

IF ONLY this were REALLY the way the RCC practiced Baptism!!

Mt 8:5-13
When he entered Capernaum, a centurion approached him and appealed to him, saying, "Lord, my servant is lying at home paralyzed, suffering dreadfully." He said to him, "I will come and cure him." The centurion said in reply, "Lord, I am not worthy to have you enter under my roof; only say the word and my servant will be healed." ... When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, "Amen, I say to you, in no one in Israel have I found such faith." ... And Jesus said to the centurion, "You may go; as you have believed, let it be done for you." And at that very hour (his) servant was healed.

BOTH protestants and Catholics accept that they can pray for infants and children for HEALING and see miracles.

EQUIVOCATING between that simple fact and the idea that you can MAKE an infant BE A CHRISTIAN or ACCEPT CHRIST by "accepting for them" is silly and does not have even ONE example in scripture.

This entire line of reasoning is in direct contradiction to Peter's OWN statement that the ESSENCE of Baptism is that the one who is baptized "APPEALS TO GOD FOR A CLEAN CONSCIENCE"!!

In the RC form the MAJORITY of baptisms involve those who DO NOT APPEAL to God for a clean conscience! The vast majority are infants.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

To Catholics, infant baptism is a correlation to the Jewish circumcision .

That is true. In the Catholic system of infant Baptism is membership in the church NOT a CONVICTION or BELIEF or New BIRTH or CONVERSION or change of heart or repentance or choosing Christ. Certainly in that sense it is like the Jewish circumcision were ONLY BOYS were entered into the group.

But Paul makes it clear in Romans 2 THAT IF ONE IS LOOKING to circumcision for SPIRITUAL application then it is the KNOWING and LIVING and ACTIVE process of circumcision of the HEART by the Holy Spirit in the ACTIVE choice of the individual that is the spiritual ESSENCE of circumcision for SALVATION.

PAUL SHOWS how that is revealed in the LIFE of one who has CHOSEN to yield to the Holy Spirit in that way in Romans 2.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Living4Him]

The Bible shows clear cases where whole households were baptized. It doesn't state everyone in the house that was above a certain age.

Acts 2:38-39 Then Peter said unto them, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all who are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call."

Doesn't state this promise is for your children once they reach a certain age.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Living4Him:
The Bible shows clear cases where whole households were baptized. It doesn't state everyone in the house that was above a certain age.

The texts say that the household was told the gospel "they heard" and "they believed" and were baptized.

The RCC hopes to "ignore all those inconvenient details" and pretend that they did NOT either hear OR believe - rather many of them were too young to hear OR believe - they were simply BAPTIZED and the SOUL MARKED by the power of the one baptizing them. (Hence the argument that your sister can not baptize your infant and get the "soul marked" - only a priest with the POWER to do such a thing may do it and have it work.).

These facts are too blatant and obvious to say that you can just continue to ignore them because they are "inconvenient".

Acts 2:38-39 Then Peter said unto them, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins;

It does not say "DON't bother with Repenting and then being Baptized! That is not needed at ALL. All you and your infants have to do - is be subjected to the POWER of an Apostle Baptizing you and then EVEN IF YOU DON'T repent - because infants have no concept AT ALL of what is going on -- you are STILL filled with the Holy Spirit and STILL marked in your soul. So PAY NO ATTENTION to anyone telling you that you and your children MUST REPENT and then be baptized! We have the POWER to get around that!"

Such an argument for getting the SAME benefit for those who DO NOT repent as for those who do - in Baptism can NOT be found in ALL of scripture.

But of course - you knew that. You are simply looking for the slightest hint of shelter in which to hide the errors of infant baptism as practiced by the RCC.

And you do so AGAINST the RCC's OWN statements that in the FIRST century they were not practicing infant baptism!!!

For the RCC tradition trumps historic and Biblical FACT!

But hopefully you will see the tradition of the RCC for what it is in this case.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[tamborine lady]

I have a question about purgatory. What makes Catolics think that if they pay the priest enough money and have him say enough prayers, that will get the person to heaven?

Usually the priest reads a whole page full of names and then says a thirty secong prayer for all of them. By the way that is the $5 service. Perhaps you get more in a $50 mass??

Peace,

Tam

 

[violet]

(Hence the argument that your sister can not baptize your infant and get the "soul marked" - only a priest with the POWER to do such a thing may do it and have it work.).

I believe, and someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but the Catholic Church believes that any baptized person can validly baptize another...

the priest (or whoever) is just the instrument of God's power, not the magician.

 

[D28guy]

Violet,

"the priest (or whoever) is just the instrument of God's power, not the magician."

But the CC does believe that their priests are a special class who do have, in effect, magic powers.

Priests can baptise an infant and they will *magically* go to heaven

The priest says "your sins are forgiven" in the confessional booth, and they are supposedly *magically* forgiven because he said so.

The priest is the one with the *magic power* to turn wheat crackers into Jesus so Catholics can eat Jesus every sunday.

The priest is frantically summoned if a Catholic is near death because the priest has the *magic power* to say special prayers to get them into heaven.

The Catholic Church is filled with *magic powers* of different forms.

The holy water has *magic powers*...little statues of by gone saints on the dashboard of your car have *magic powers*...if you go to any of the Mary Shrines in the world Catholics cross land and see in hopes that the Queen of the Universe Mary, through her *magic powers* will grant a visitation or apparition...scapulars are given *magic powers*...incense is given *magic powers*. On and on it goes.

God bless,

Mike

 

[Living4Him]

D28guy,

You shouldn't bear false witness.

We do not believe they posses magical powers.

Also, with regard to sacramentals
1670 Sacramentals do not confer the grace of the Holy Spirit in the way that the sacraments do, but by the Church's prayer, they prepare us to receive grace and dispose us to cooperate with it. "For well-disposed members of the faithful, the liturgy of the sacraments and sacramentals sanctifies almost every event of their lives with the divine grace which flows from the Paschal mystery of the Passion, Death, and Resurrection of Christ.

1674 Besides sacramental liturgy and sacramentals, catechesis must take into account the forms of piety and popular devotions among the faithful. The religious sense of the Christian people has always found expression in various forms of piety surrounding the Church's sacramental life, such as the veneration of relics, visits to sanctuaries, pilgrimages, processions, the stations of the cross, religious dances, the rosary, medals,178 etc.

1675 These expressions of piety extend the liturgical life of the Church, but do not replace it. They "should be so drawn up that they harmonize with the liturgical seasons, accord with the sacred liturgy, are in some way derived from it and lead the people to it, since in fact the liturgy by its very nature is far superior to any of them."179

1676 Pastoral discernment is needed to sustain and support popular piety and, if necessary, to purify and correct the religious sense which underlies these devotions so that the faithful may advance in knowledge of the mystery of Christ.180 Their exercise is subject to the care and judgment of the bishops and to the general norms of the Church.

 

[D28guy]

Living4Him,

"You shouldn't bear false witness."

I didnt.

"We do not believe they posses magical powers."

When did I say that you believe your priests, scapulars, little statues, holy water, candles, etc posses magical powers?

This is what I said...

"But the CC does believe that their priests are a special class who do have, in effect, magic powers.

Notice the "in effect" part.

And I also said...

"The priest is the one with the *magic power* to turn wheat crackers into Jesus so Catholics can eat Jesus every sunday.

The priest is frantically summoned if a Catholic is near death because the priest has the *magic power* to say special prayers to get them into heaven.

The Catholic Church is filled with *magic powers* of different forms.

The holy water has *magic powers*...little statues of by gone saints on the dashboard of your car have *magic powers*...if you go to any of the Mary Shrines in the world Catholics cross land and see in hopes that the Queen of the Universe Mary, through her *magic powers* will grant a visitation or apparition...scapulars are given *magic powers*...incense is given *magic powers*. On and on it goes."

By doing *this* with certain words should clarify that I realise that the Catholic Church does not call these things "magic".

God bless,

Mike

 

[Living4Him]

So Mike,

Are you admiting that the Church doesn't refer to these things as "magic"?

Are you saying that you personally feel that these things are "magic" and not the power of God?

 

[violet]

By doing *this* with certain words should clarify that I realise that the Catholic Church does not call these things "magic".

But you do...

So, then you must believe that today's the day that the cardinals enter the conclave with their ouija boards and Magic 8 Balls to decide on a new pope, right?

 

[tamborine lady]

Originally posted by tamborine lady:

I have a question about purgatory. What makes Catolics think that if they pay the priest enough money and have him say enough prayers, that will get the person to heaven?

Usually the priest reads a whole page full of names and then says a thirty secong prayer for all of them. By the way that is the $5 service. Perhaps you get more in a $50 mass??

Peace,

Tam

 

[violet]

I think you misunderstand or misrepresent the Catholic belief. From what I understand, you can have a mass said for no money at all. Paying the priest is similar to when my husband and I got married and we gave the pastor some money-- it's costomary. I don't think Catholics have a menu of costs for services rendered...

I think the Catholic belief is that the prayers, not the money, are what aide the person.

 

[Living4Him]

Tam,

They generally ask for a $5.00 offering, but it is not mandatory.

The priest generally use this money to help those in need and not for themselves.

Kinda like the Easter lillies. The church is always filled with these at easter time. For $5.00, you can have your loved one listed as a person whom the flowers are in memory of.

 

[Living4Him]

Here is the prayer that is used for the repose of souls:

Eternal rest grant unto them, O Lord.
And may perpetual light shine upon them.
May the souls of the faithfully departed through the mercy of God rest in peace.
Amen.

 

[tamborine lady]

Thanks L4H, that's what I needed to know. I know why you pray for them, just needed to know about the $.

Thanks again!!

Tam