Sincerity

[Winman]

Luk 18:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Boy, the Pharisee was a good guy, he did EVERYTHING you are supposed to do to prove you are saved, and he was as lost as a goose.

That silly old publican, he just came in and beat on his chest and cried out to God to forgive him. How dare he presume God would forgive him until he quits sinning and lives like the Pharisee.

But Jesus looks on the heart, he said the publican (but not the Pharisee) went down to his house justified, all his sins forgiven.

All that publican did was say a prayer, that's easy believism! He can't be saved!!

But he was.

 

[preacher4truth]

I see you constantly twisting the words of the bible to suit your arguments...in that you fail with your arguments! If you are not sincere when you confess how can you be saved? You cannot! If you are not sincere then you do not believe in what you confess! Jesus says who ever believes in me will be saved!

Hello stevewm1963,

Welcome to BB.

It is only by the grace of God we believe, and we only believe by His power. Nothing in Scripture gives credit, boasting, nor glory to man in salvation, up to and including 'sincerity'. Salvation is all of the Lord and none of man.

 

[Inspector Javert]

Well, it's absolutely not but I wanted to expose out in the open

So then...is it your official position that to sincerely believe in your heart and confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus Christ and believe that God hath raised him from the dead...........is NOT sufficient for salvation?

Is that your official position?
Please answer that.

 

[preacher4truth]

So then...is it your official position that to sincerely believe in your heart and confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus Christ and believe that God hath raised him from the dead...........is NOT sufficient for salvation?

Is that your official position?
Please answer that.

Yup, that's it. It's none of man, that's my position. :thumbsup:

 

[Inspector Javert]

If you make faith to be an act of the creature then it is indeed 'from ourselves'.

"Salvation" is what is "not of ourselves"...not the "faith".

That's the point.

 

[kyredneck]

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- not by works, so that no one can boast."

"And here we must advert to a very common error in the interpretation of this passage. Many persons restrict the word gift to faith alone. But Paul is only repeating in other words the former sentiment. His meaning is, not that faith is the gift of God, but that salvation is given to us by God, or, that we obtain it by the gift of God." - John Calvin

27 but God chose the foolish things of the world, that he might put to shame them that are wise; and God chose the weak things of the world, that he might put to shame the things that are strong;
28 and the base things of the world, and the things that are despised, did God choose, yea and the things that are not, that he might bring to nought the things that are:
29 that no flesh should glory before God.
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, 1 Cor 1

If you make faith to mean man's choice, man's free will, man's personal decision, then man places himself in Christ and man has reason to boast.

 

[Inspector Javert]

Yup, that's it. It's none of man, that's my position. :thumbsup:

Then you blatantly deny Scripture:

The Scriptures say without qualification:
Rom 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Anyone who denies this is a heretic and anathema.

 

[Winman]

"Salvation" is what is "not of ourselves"...not the "faith".

That's the point.

They don't get it, faith simply asks. It is God who gives life.

Jhn 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

 

[preacher4truth]

27 but God chose the foolish things of the world, that he might put to shame them that are wise; and God chose the weak things of the world, that he might put to shame the things that are strong;
28 and the base things of the world, and the things that are despised, did God choose, yea and the things that are not, that he might bring to nought the things that are:
29 that no flesh should glory before God.
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, 1 Cor 1

If you make faith to mean man's choice, man's free will, man's personal decision then man indeed has reason to boast and man then puts himself in Christ.

It's personal achievement, see post 8.

 

[preacher4truth]

Then you blatantly deny Scripture:

The Scriptures say without qualification:
Rom 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Anyone who denies this is a heretic and anathema.

Thanks for calling me an heretic.

Now to your accusations. Nope. I blatantly deny knowing the Lord is a personal achievement, as per post #8, and instead I believe it has nothing to do with man, up to and including sincerity. See post #3 on that one. It should be clear enough.

 

[Inspector Javert]

It's personal achievement, see post 8.

Call it what you want:
Skan was merely quoting Scripture:
I believe he was referring to Jeremiah 9 (one of my favourites):

Jer 9:23
Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches:
Jer 9:24
But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD.

That's one of my favourites...and that passage of Scripture will preach my man............
That one'll preach! :thumbsup:

 

[convicted1]

Neither side of the contentional divide wide debate denies that faith comes by hearing the word of God, it says so in Romans 10:17. But it's more than just hearing it. If you're in a church service for nothing else than to get someone off your back who had been pressuring you to go, more than likely the preacher's sermon will have no effect on you. You heard the gospel preached, correct? Then, if you take a wooden stance to Romans 10:17, just bring a preacher to preach to your lost loved ones and they'll be saved. However, there's more to it than just hearing with the natural man. The spiritual man, the inner man, is dead to righteousness, and can not discern one word being preached, left in it's fallen state. It takes the work of God to liven that spiritual man, that inner man, where he also breaks that stony heart to receive the seed, the word being preached.

 

[Winman]

Neither side of the contentional divide wide debate denies that faith comes by hearing the word of God, it says so in Romans 10:17. But it's more than just hearing it. If you're in a church service for nothing else than to get someone off your back who had been pressuring you to go, more than likely the preacher's sermon will have no effect on you. You heard the gospel preached, correct? Then, if you take a wooden stance to Romans 10:17, just bring a preacher to preach to your lost loved ones and they'll be saved. However, there's more to it than just hearing with the natural man. The spiritual man, the inner man, is dead to righteousness, and can not discern one word being preached, left in it's fallen state. It takes the work of God to liven that spiritual man, that inner man, where he also breaks that stony heart to receive the seed, the word being preached.

But that's exactly what we are talking about, the man who sincerely calls on the Lord to save him is saved. You have to mean it.

Calvinists are so worried about man being a part of salvation that they don't even want to get saved.

 

[kyredneck]

Well, faith is NOT an act of the creature, man's choice, man's free will, man's personal decision, it is a deep conviction of that which can't be seen with the eye or touched with the hand strong enough to change lives and produce results which can be seen with the eye.

 

[convicted1]

But God changes that person's desires first. Man, in a fallen state, has no desire to come to Him.

 

[Skandelon]

it is clear to see you in fact do teach contrary to this.

Preacher4truth,

Go back and look at all my posts. All of them are direct quotes from scripture or definitions from Websters (and one Calvin quote). Not ONE word, until this post, is MINE.

Yet, you vehemently opposed me every step. Actually, you vehemently opposed the texts and definitions I quoted, not me. That reveals everything I need to know. I'll leave you with this most applicable of quotes:

“Don't take the wrong side of an argument just because your opponent has taken the right side.” - Baltasar Gracian

 

[preacher4truth]

Call it what you want:
Skan was merely quoting Scripture:
I believe he was referring to Jeremiah 9 (one of my favourites):

Jer 9:23
Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches:
Jer 9:24
But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD.

That's one of my favourites...and that passage of Scripture will preach my man............
That one'll preach! :thumbsup:

I have no problem with the quoting of Scripture. He's defined boasting in salvation as personal achievement. You join him in that error. I can't remove scales, I can only point out dissident theology, and his is in fact that. Knowing God in salvation is in post #8 a personal achievement, and you're defending that. I can say I am not surprised. My objective in the OP was to expose those of you who believe these things, and it's been fully successful.

 

[Winman]

Jesus- Come unto me all ye that are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Calvinist- I can't come to you.

Jesus- Yes you can, come and be saved

Calvinist- No, salvation is all of the Lord, I cannot come to you, that would be a work

Jesus- But I am telling you to come to me, You MUST come to me to be saved!

Calvinist- No Lord, I cannot come, that would be me saving myself.

Jesus- Very well, have it your way, be gone from me.

 

[preacher4truth]

Preacher4truth,

Go back and look at all my posts. All of them are direct quotes from scripture or definitions from Websters (and one Calvin quote). Not ONE word, until this post, is MINE.

Yet, you vehemently opposed me every step. Actually, you vehemently opposed the texts and definitions I quoted, not me. That reveals everything I need to know. I'll leave you with this most applicable of quotes:

“Don't take the wrong side of an argument just because your opponent has taken the right side.” - Baltasar Gracian

Nonsense but nice try. You've defined your position in post #8 and gave definition to clarify it. Anyone with any sense can see that. Leave off the personal and let's stick to what you actually teach and state. I vehemently deny your teaching, no need to make this personal as you're attempting to do, and no, I'm not biting on that bait. :thumbs:

 

[convicted1]

Jesus- Come unto me all ye that are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Calvinist- I can't come to you.

Jesus- Yes you can, come and be saved

Calvinist- No, salvation is all of the Lord, I cannot come to you, that would be a work

Jesus- But I am telling you to come to me, You MUST come to me to be saved!

Calvinist- No Lord, I cannot come, that would be me saving myself.

Jesus- Very well, have it your way, be gone from me.

Notice those who are heavy ladened. A lot of people love their sins and aren't burdened by them, Brother winman. They have no desire to come to HIm. They love their sins, and in fact, quite a few baost about them.