Sincerity

[Skandelon]

But God changes that person's desires first. Man, in a fallen state, has no desire to come to Him.

Willis, I have a question for you about this text:

The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. 7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth--men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air--for I am grieved that I have made them." 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD. 9 This is the account of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked with God. ​

Why do you suppose God didn't just give mankind the 'desire' to follow him, like apparently He did for Noah? Why was he grieved by the rest of humanity, but not Noah?

 

[Skandelon]

Nonsense but nice try. You've defined your position in post #8

Brother, go read it again. It is a QUOTE directly from God followed by a QUOTE directly from Websters. NOT SINGLE WORD IS MINE.

 

[Inspector Javert]

Thanks for calling me an heretic.

I did NOT CALL YOU A HERETIC!
Read my phraseology carefully again..............
I said:
"any who would deny this are heretic and anathema".
I am not being NEARLY so haphazard and careless with my thoughts and words as you appear to be....

However...if you do indeed deny that as a perfect and sufficient condition for salvation......then you are indeed to be considered a heretic and anathema.

Ifyou deny that is a sufficient condition for salvation...then you are indeed a heretic, and are to be considered anathema. It's your choice.

Now to your accusations. Nope. I blatantly deny knowing the Lord is a personal achievement

Please quote ONE.....ONLY ONE "ACCUSATION"...of any kind I've leveled against you or charged you with...or cease be a false accuser of the brethren. I have "accused" YOU of nothing.
I have said something to the effect that:
"anyone who denies this is heretic or anathema"....that is not an "accusation".
Do you officially deny Romans 10:9?
If so...you are a heretic and anathema...
if not...then you stand accused of nothing.....................................................................

Except falsely accusing your brethren (namely me) of calling you a "heretic".

I await my apology.

 

[Winman]

Notice those who are heavy ladened. A lot of people love their sins and aren't burdened by them, Brother winman. They have no desire to come to HIm. They love their sins, and in fact, quite a few baost about them.

We are not talking about those people. We are talking about people who truly and sincerely pray for Jesus to save them. They are like the publican who would not raise his eyes but beat on his chest and cried out for God to have mercy on him.

Jesus said the publican went down to his house justified. Any man who sincerely cries out to Jesus to save him as the publican did is saved.

Jesus gave this example in scripture so people could understand what it means to believe on him. It means to trust him, to come to him in utter dependance, relying on him alone to save you. It is not about promising to quit sinning and lead a new life. Do you see any mention of that with the publican?

 

[preacher4truth]

Brother, go read it again. It is a QUOTE directly from God followed by a QUOTE directly from Websters. NOT SINGLE WORD IS MINE.

We all quote Scripture and definitions to buffer our stance, and that is what you've done. You've given those quotes to define your stance and that is why you posted that reply. Thus post #8 is clearly defining your position.

And leave off the personal nonsense. It's not needed. Stick to what is posted as I have and leave off personal things, like judging motives, as you've stated in the past to do so is against the rules here.

 

[stevewm1963]

If we were to listen to you none of us would be saved!

 

[Winman]

If we were to listen to you none of us would be saved!

Right on. That is the purpose of Calvinism.

 

[preacher4truth]

I did NOT CALL YOU A HERETIC!

You certainly did. Leave off the personal innuendoes and ad hominem. Not that I can't take it mind you, it's just against the rules.

 

[convicted1]

Willis, I have a question for you about this text:

The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. 7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth--men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air--for I am grieved that I have made them." 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD. 9 This is the account of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked with God. ​

Why do you suppose God didn't just give mankind the 'desire' to follow him, like apparently He did for Noah? Why was he grieved by the rest of humanity, but not Noah?

Not knowing the Lord's mind, I'll do my best to answer with what info I have that He left for us to learn. God did make man upright and they fell. When Adam fell, we fell too, being in the first Adam. God chose a people in Christ, the second Adam, from the foundation of the world. He would make all possible provisions, ensuring that none of His sheep would die lost. So, apparently Noah was one of His sheep, and spared him, and his wife, three sons and daughters-in-law, having chosen them from the foundation of the world. The rest were not of His sheep, and they died due to their thoughts being evil continually....

 

[convicted1]

We are not talking about those people. We are talking about people who truly and sincerely pray for Jesus to save them. They are like the publican who would not raise his eyes but beat on his chest and cried out for God to have mercy on him.

Jesus said the publican went down to his house justified. Any man who sincerely cries out to Jesus to save him as the publican did is saved.

Jesus gave this example in scripture so people could understand what it means to believe on him. It means to trust him, to come to him in utter dependance, relying on him alone to save you. It is not about promising to quit sinning and lead a new life. Do you see any mention of that with the publican?

Anyone, Brother winman, who is being sincere, had already had God move them from their dead to righteousness state, to a state where they can hear the gospel being preached, being able to call out sincerely from a broken heart, "Lord save me or I perish!!" God has already broken their stony heart....

 

[preacher4truth]

If we were to listen to you none of us would be saved!

So you were saved because of your sincerity?

The ability to believe is by God's power. It is all to His glory.

 

[Skandelon]

We all quote Scripture and definitions to buffer our stance, and that is what you've done. You've given those quotes to define your stance and that is why you posted that reply. Thus post #8 is clearly defining your position.

And leave off the personal nonsense. It's not needed. Stick to what is posted as I have and leave off personal things, like judging motives, as you've stated in the past to do so is against the rules here.

Personal? I've not been personal. I'm merely stating facts. I quoted scriptures and a definition, nothing more. You disagreed with it. What else needs to be said?

Interestingly, I actually agree that man's sincerity doesn't merit his salvation. Even a sincerely repentant and believing individual deserves Hell. God's choice to save those who believe and repent is ALL OF GRACE. No one is saved because they deserve to be saved. Those who ask for forgiveness do not deserve to be forgiven just because they ask for it and they certainly don't deserve to be made an heir of God's Kingdom. That is GRACE ALONE.

 

[Inspector Javert]

But God changes that person's desires first. Man, in a fallen state, has no desire to come to Him.

Does man in his "fallen state" desire to burn forever eternally tormented in hell??


I trow not.......
I assure you...I was equally in my "fallen state" as the next dude when someone said to me that if I die without Christ I will burn forever in the flames of hell.

That's why God included these two particular gems in Scripture:
Jud 1:22
And of some have compassion, making a difference:

That wasn't me.

Jud 1:23
And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
^^THAT...SURE AS SHOOTIN' WAS!^^^
Guess what...it was nothing but my wicked, evil, selfish, personal desires of self-preservation which caused me to repent that day...."I.J. elects to NOT burn in hell..." That's nothing to boast about Willis...
It's just I.J. saving his own wretched skin. Always was, will never be anything else...

 

[Winman]

Not knowing the Lord's mind, I'll do my best to answer with what info I have that He left for us to learn. God did make man upright and they fell. When Adam fell, we fell too, being in the first Adam. God chose a people in Christ, the second Adam, from the foundation of the world. He would make all possible provisions, ensuring that none of His sheep would die lost. So, apparently Noah was one of His sheep, and spared him, and his wife, three sons and daughters-in-law, having chosen them from the foundation of the world. The rest were not of His sheep, and they died due to their thoughts being evil continually....

No, they died because God chose to pass them by. Noah was just as sinful as all men in the Calvinist scheme. Noah just happened to be one of the lucky people that God liked and chose to regenerate. He was just as sinful as everyone else in your scheme, sin had NOTHING to do with it, election is UNCONDITIONAL, remember???

 

[Inspector Javert]

You certainly did. Leave off the personal innuendoes and ad hominem. Not that I can't take it mind you, it's just against the rules.

I did not...you are a liar...

THAT I call you...

"heretic" no. (never did)

"liar" yes. You are a liar, sir, a liar.

 

[Skandelon]

Not knowing the Lord's mind, I'll do my best to answer with what info I have that He left for us to learn. God did make man upright and they fell. When Adam fell, we fell too, being in the first Adam. God chose a people in Christ, the second Adam, from the foundation of the world. He would make all possible provisions, ensuring that none of His sheep would die lost. So, apparently Noah was one of His sheep, and spared him, and his wife, three sons and daughters-in-law, having chosen them from the foundation of the world. The rest were not of His sheep, and they died due to their thoughts being evil continually....

So do you believe God was just putting on a show of sorts by 'grieving' the rebellion of man, and deciding to give Noah the desire to be the good one?

 

[preacher4truth]

Personal? I've not been personal.

You got personal here:

Preacher4truth,

Go back and look at all my posts. All of them are direct quotes from scripture or definitions from Websters (and one Calvin quote). Not ONE word, until this post, is MINE.

Yet, you vehemently opposed me every step. Actually, you vehemently opposed the texts and definitions I quoted, not me. That reveals everything I need to know. I'll leave you with this most applicable of quotes:

“Don't take the wrong side of an argument just because your opponent has taken the right side.” - Baltasar Gracian

I'm merely stating facts.

What facts? All you did was paste verses and definitions but apparently 'later on' you meant nothing in post #8. It's easy to see the connection between the verse concerning boasting and the definition that followed calls boasting 'personal achievement'. Your reply was in defense of your position against the OP.

I quoted scriptures and a definition, nothing more. You disagreed with it. What else needs to be said?

Funny. I disagreed with post #8 which gives your position that is plain and clear to see. One more thing, I didn't disagree with Scripture, I disagreed with your bottom line definition tied to Scripture, justifying your stance and that knowing the Lord by your definition and context of post #8 is 'personal achievement'.

Interestingly, I actually agree that man's sincerity doesn't merit his salvation. Even a sincerely repentant and believing individual deserves Hell. God's choice to save those who believe and repent is ALL OF GRACE. No one is saved because they deserve to be saved. Those who ask for forgiveness do not deserve to be forgiven just because they ask for it and they certainly don't deserve to be made an heir of God's Kingdom. That is GRACE ALONE.

Yes, I know. You make these novel statements skandelon, but you deny them in what you actually teach.

 

[convicted1]

No, they died because God chose to pass them by. Noah was just as sinful as all men in the Calvinist scheme. Noah just happened to be one of the lucky people that God liked and chose to regenerate. He was just as sinful as everyone else in your scheme, sin had NOTHING to do with it, election is UNCONDITIONAL, remember???

Look, when all stand before Him, He will divide the goats from the sheep, as the Shepherd does. Goats are goats, and sheep are sheep. Nothing anyone can do can change that. Noah was appreciative of what God did for him and his family. The others went along living their lives the way the chose to. Election is unconditional, and God chose to save some, when He wasn't obligated to save one. Thinking of that makes me rejoice in that I, being a low down, rotten, snake in the grass, dirty old skunk, He chose to save me. Glory!!

 

[Winman]

So do you believe God was just putting on a show of sorts by 'grieving' the rebellion of man, and deciding to give Noah the desire to be the good one?

Yeah, in Calvinism God is just a big phony. He acts and says he wants people to repent, but he doesn't really mean it or he would regenerate them. He cries alligator tears as though he is truly grieved that men perish, but he passes men by and lets them perish to glorify himself.

Nice.

 

[convicted1]

So do you believe God was just putting on a show of sorts by 'grieving' the rebellion of man, and deciding to give Noah the desire to be the good one?

Well, it says He get no joy in the death of the wicked. But they chose to do their wicked deeds/sins. God did not have to obligate Himself to save even one of us, and yet He chose to save a number of the sands of the seas, a number that if you could number the stars in heaven, you could number the elect. That's what He told Abram.

He could have destroyed Noah and his family as well, but Noah found grace in His sight. That's the best I can tell you, using scripture. Anything more would probably be conjecture, imo.....