Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Exactly my point. What do we have that we have not be given? Thus, our boasting is about what He has granted (EVEN IF WE CAN RESIST OR REFUSE WHAT HE HAS GRANTED).
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- Thread starter preacher4truth
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preacher4truth
Active Member
Nonsense. You've called it a personal achievement to boast in. That is false teaching and you taught it yourself.
What a ridiculous thread. Calvinists have a lot of nerve criticizing others for boasting, these are the folks who never let you forget they are God's special "elect". That's all they talk about non-stop, election and being one of the elect.
Yeah, that's not a boast.
If it has been given then you did not achieve it. It is really that simple.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Think about it Amy. Even something you successfully do as a result of an irresistible work of God is still a personal achievement. Even Calvinists don't deny that a person must PERSONALLY, with their heart believe and with their mouth confess. Granted, they do so as a result of being effectually regenerated, according to Calvinism, but that doesn't change the fact that they PERSONALLY DID IT. God didn't believe for them, or confess for them. God caused them to do it and in that they can boast, according to scripture. The only difference in my view and Calvinists is the effectual nature of God's means to bring mankind to salvation, which really doesn't even change the nature of why we might 'boast' in Him.
I don't know Skan, I think many Calvinists have been conditioned to the point of being terrorized of "doing" anything, including believing. I think some might really believe God must believe for them, they absolutely cannot do ANYTHING or they think that will be a work and they will forfeit salvation.
The devil could not have devised a better plan, to actually make people afraid to believe on Jesus. :thumbsup:
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
What is 'it?' Confession? You never confessed? Belief? You never actually believed?
Again, according to Calvinism, God is NOT believing for you or repenting for you. Man still does this in the Calvinistic system. You still acknowledge Him as God and submit to his ways. You just do so as a result of His irresistible work of regeneration, by which your nature changed.
So your old original nature, which ironically is also created/controlled by God, couldn't believe and confess.
So, God created a new nature, which can and does believe and confess. So, unless your new nature is not YOU, then what ever YOU, with your new nature, do is a "personal achievement."
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Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
That's over the top. Sorry, but I was a Calvinist long enough to at least know that isn't the case... I'm not going to create a boogie man out of them regardless of how they might try to create one out of me.
preacher4truth
Active Member
No Calvinist has boasted in being elect. That's an oxymoron. In fact it is against Scripture/Calvinists to boast in salvation and knowing the Lord via personal achievement as skan has done and as other anti-cals do as well.
Many of these believe they have done good, sought God, weren't those in Romans 3 &c. Anti-cal and arminian error is filled with gloating in man. It's unbiblical doctrine.
Skan has conveyed knowing the Lord is a personal achievement. That's works based. It's not Baptist doctrine.
Many of these believe they have done good, sought God, weren't those in Romans 3 &c. Anti-cal and arminian error is filled with gloating in man. It's unbiblical doctrine.
Skan has conveyed knowing the Lord is a personal achievement. That's works based. It's not Baptist doctrine.
I am not saying this is what Calvinism teaches, but I would bet many Calvinists are absolutely terrorized of "doing" ANYTHING.
Just because you never thought this way, doesn't mean others won't. I would be willing to bet that many Calvinists are very fearful this way.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
I think Calvinists are good honest God honoring believers who REALLY genuinely believe with all their hearts that what they teach is of God and in accordance with the scripture.
I believe that think non-Calvinism robs God of glory due only to Him, and so they have a really righteous motive for defending their views and thus do so with great vigor.
They inaccurately believe that faith is a meritorious work of the law, thus any belief system which teaches the necessity of faith as a condition for regeneration falls into a works based system. They really believe they are defending against a works based system by defending their views, so their motives are typically good.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
I never suggested otherwise. We are talking about boasting in what God has made known to us about himself, not in being elected before the foundation of the earth. You are now confounding two separate issues to attempt to build a case against me rather than actually discussing my content.
It was things like this that had lead me to put you on my ignore list previously and I'm feeling that it was an error to turn that off.
preacher4truth
Active Member
That was directed at winman, not you, so the balance of your straw man argument above is completely baseless.
Bottom line is you've conveyed knowing the Lord as a personal achievement. That's false teaching and no Baptist believes that. To teach what you've taught in this thread is to espouse false doctrine that opposes truth -- contrary to 2 Cor. 13:8.
In addition to this you've called me a liar moderator, and that is contrary to BB rules and is in fact a baseless accusation.
You just demonstrated what I am saying. They think faith is a work. They think believing is a work. If they believe they will forfeit salvation because they are trying to save themselves through works.
Don't tell me some Calvinists don't get caught in this trap, I know better.
A Calvinist does not know what to do. They must wait for God to regenerate them and make them believe, but how do they know when that has happened? Is it God that caused them to believe, or are they self deceived?
The fear of death and going to hell is a very terrifying thing when you are not sure.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45EX0YAGyVM
preacher4truth
Active Member
Faith is the gift and work of God, yet winman you teach it is of man, and that even a dog has the same faith as man. :laugh:
Got some Scripture for that? That's right, you don't. Scripture denies your fallacious error, we only believe by the power of God, which is the same power that raised Christ from the dead.
Interestingly enough, you and other anti-cals/arminians believe that God must be enabled to save man via man, but you find it an impossibility and a repudiation to believe that God must enable man to believe.
Got some Scripture for that? That's right, you don't. Scripture denies your fallacious error, we only believe by the power of God, which is the same power that raised Christ from the dead.
Interestingly enough, you and other anti-cals/arminians believe that God must be enabled to save man via man, but you find it an impossibility and a repudiation to believe that God must enable man to believe.
What is "it"???? The "personal achievement" you have been claiming. That's the "it". Are you following?
preacher4truth
Active Member
Ahh, flattery. Wonder what Scripture says about that? No need to patronize, the focus is on YOU and your teaching of knowing God via personal achievement. I won't patronize you or camps of your ilk -- that teaching is totally false and is definitely NOT Baptistic. Frankly it's false doctrine and you have taught it on a Baptist forum.
Perhaps some "Calvinist" you might know don't to have take issue with the concept of "personal acheivement" in knowing God but Jesus Christ sure takes issue with it. He repudiates it! He claims it is impossible because He claims none can know God except He reveals the Father to them.
Mt 11:27 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knows the Son, but the Father; neither knows any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
Lu 10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knows who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.
You are simply wrong and just too proud to admit it.
preacher4truth
Active Member
Exactly. :thumbsup: :smilewinkgrin:
He's taught false doctrine and from day one I saw through his teaching seeing this is what he believes (personal achievement in knowing God).
A person can say 24/7/365 'Salvation is 100% of God!!!' and can jump up and down on altars like those of Baal and cut themselves similarly, but when you see they actually TEACH knowing God is 'personal achievement' they've denied their statement.
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preacher4truth
Active Member
There was no reason to ask me not to lie. Why? Because I haven't lied. More ad hominem from you. I've asked you to prove your false accusations, you have no proof.
Calling me a liar is against BB rules, correct? Leave it off, such statements are unbecoming to those who've personally achieved knowing God. Or, do you recant that as well as calling me a liar?
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