Sincerity

[quantumfaith]

]Clearly you are not of the frame of mind to have a rational charitable conversation as I didn't even take issue with your proposal of the word 'praise.' In fact, if you read correctly I thanked you for finally making an argument and presenting an alternate definition...one I actually don't take much of an issue with. [/COLOR] Believe it or not, but we can actually agree about some aspects even if we disagree about some finer points of soteriology. I don't believe the word boast or praise are inaccurate for either of our perspectives...nor do I even believe Calvinists (if being objective) have to take issue with the concept of personal achievement, for reasons already explained.

You may be okay with calling each other's efforts and views in a discussion 'pathetic,' but I think it makes one's character appear to be 'pathetic' to do so. So, I'll leave you with this word of rebuke from someone you may respect and actually listen too.

You can have the final word as I'm done... blessings!

"I love the doctrines of grace with all my heart, and I think they are pride-shattering, humbling, and love-producing doctrines. But I think there is an attractiveness about them to some people, in large matter, because of their intellectual rigor. They are powerfully coherent doctrines, and certain kinds of minds are drawn to that. And those kinds of minds tend to be argumentative.

So the intellectual appeal of the system of Calvinism draws a certain kind of intellectual person, and that type of person doesn't tend to be the most warm, fuzzy, and tender. Therefore this type of person has a greater danger of being hostile, gruff, abrupt, insensitive or intellectualistic.

I'll just confess that. It's a sad and terrible thing that that's the case. Some of this type aren't even Christians, I think. You can embrace a system of theology and not even be born again."

--John Piper​

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[The Biblicist]

Perhaps some "Calvinist" you might know don't to have take issue with the concept of "personal acheivement" in knowing God but Jesus Christ sure takes issue with it. He repudiates it! He claims it is impossible because He claims none can know God except He reveals the Father to them.

Mt 11:27 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knows the Son, but the Father; neither knows any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Lu 10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knows who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.


You are simply wrong and just too proud to admit it.

Notice that Skandelon and Quantum cannot respond to the words of Christ on this issue? All they can do is hi five each other about their false teaching that man can boast in knowing God as a personal achievement. The hebrew term used by Biblical writes does not support them so they run to Webster. Just too proud to simply admit they are wrong and so obviously wrong.

 

[preacher4truth]

Notice that Skandelon and Quantum cannot respond to the words of Christ on this issue? All they can do is hi five each other about their false teaching that man can boast in knowing God as a personal achievement. The hebrew term used by Biblical writes does not support them so they run to Webster. Just too proud to simply admit they are wrong and so obviously wrong.

Correct. I'd not want a 'friend' who would congratulate me for teaching false doctrine. Such is not a true friend in the biblical sense.

I see both believe knowing God is a personal achievement. Such boasting and belief is rather unbiblical, is against the revelation of truth, and is quite a solemn thing to behold as it reminds one of 2 Timothy 3:7.

 

[The Biblicist]

Salvation still was chosen to be given in a way that humans can relate to. That way is belief.

Yes, repentance and faith is our initial experience in time and space of God's saving grace.

We know if we believe.

The problem is that the Scriptures speak of various kinds of faith that have nothing to do with genuine saving faith but are counterfeits and we must first rightly divide the scriptures and understand the difference before we can really know if we believed or not. For example, those in John 6:64 could not have been "disciples" of Christ without making a profession of faith and submitting to baptism as this was how Christ made disciples (Jn. 4:1). Yet Christ says that they NEVER believed in the correct sense (vv 64-65). Hence, the outward form was correct but did not express the true character of their heart. There are "tares" (Mt. 13).

There is such a thing as "vain" faith (1 Cor. 15:2). There is such a thing as "dead" faith (James 2). There are those who professed to believe but are still children of Satan (Jn. 8:29-45 - follow the pronouns).

It's not a matter of pride - too many get hung up on the differences in language then and now. Boasting and pride did not hold the same meaning in the sense we use those words today.

The word "glory" in Jeremiah 9:24 represents a hebrew term that is NEVER translated "boast" in the KJV but is translated "praise" 117 times. Jesus denies that knowing God is a personal acheivement

Mt 11:27 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knows the Son, but the Father; neither knows any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Lu 10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knows who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.


- it is not possible because knowing God does not originate with "flesh and blood" but is by divine revelation (Mt. 16:17; Gal. 1:15-16; 2 Cor. 4:6

It seems rather silly to let it become a matter of contention to call believing a "work" when it's really the only way we can relate to how we know we have been delivered.

Saving faith is a gift of God and "by grace" (Rom. 4:16). If repentance is a gift of God (Acts 11:17) then faith must be a "gift" of God as repentance and faith are inseparable graces as one cannot exist without the other.

Wouldn't it be more productive to focus on helping people understand who our Savior is and what he did instead? It seems the rest would fall into place. A sincere believer will not resist that. One who does not believe will be drawn to the arguments and semantics instead of wanting to focus on learning more and growing, one would think.
Does that make sense? I'm feeling a bit unfocused as I try to express what's going on in my mind right now, so I hope that came out in a logical way.

Unfortunately, this is a "debate" forum rather than an evangelistic forum. Also, unfortunately there are counterfeit types of gospel faith. Faith in the wrong object saves no one as that is a "vain" faith. Faith originating from the human nature instead of from the Holy Spirit is a "dead" faith as it has no power even though it makes the right confession (Jn. 6:64-65; 8:29-45)

 

[preacher4truth]

The word "glory" in Jeremiah 9:24 represents a hebrew term that is NEVER translated "boast" in the KJV but is translated "praise" 117 times. Jesus denies that knowing God is a personal acheivement

Absolutely, all the praise and glory is toward Him, not toward ones 'personal achievement'. Such glorying is telltale, showing ones foundation to be faulty.

 

[Winman]

Faith is the gift and work of God, yet winman you teach it is of man, and that even a dog has the same faith as man. :laugh:

Animals do have faith in God, it is shown in scripture;

Job 38:41 Who provideth for the raven his food? when his young ones cry unto God, they wander for lack of meat.

Psa 147:9 He giveth to the beast his food, and to the young ravens which cry.

I don't expect you to understand this, but animals trust in God and cry out to him. This is a form of faith, not for salvation, but for protection and sustenance.

Mat 6:26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?

Got some Scripture for that? That's right, you don't. Scripture denies your fallacious error, we only believe by the power of God, which is the same power that raised Christ from the dead.

Yes, I just showed scripture that shows animals have faith in God, and I am sure I could find more.

Interestingly enough, you and other anti-cals/arminians believe that God must be enabled to save man via man, but you find it an impossibility and a repudiation to believe that God must enable man to believe.

No, God gives man his WORD, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. (Rom 10:17) The word of God enables man to believe.

But God will not believe for you, you must believe for yourself if you dare.

 

[Skandelon]

Perhaps some "Calvinist" you might know don't to have take issue with the concept of "personal acheivement" in knowing God but Jesus Christ sure takes issue with it. He repudiates it! He claims it is impossible because He claims none can know God except He reveals the Father to them.

Obviously. I affirmed this in a previous post which clearly you two aren't even bothering to actually read anymore. Are you actually so far caught up into your straw man delusion of me that you think I would deny that God has to reveal himself in order for us to know Him??? Seriously? Come on man, talk to MEEEE, not your monster. Go back and read what I wrote and you will see over and over where I'm attempting to meet you two half way and you continue to paint me as some gloating fool running around bragging about how I came to know and understand God all by myself....it's just crazy. Is that really what you think about me? I mean really?

Mt 11:27 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knows the Son, but the Father; neither knows any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Lu 10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knows who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

I completely affirm these verses, I just don't buy into the dogma that suggest this revelation is irresistible.

 

[preacher4truth]

:laugh: :laugh:

Apples and oranges.

You've claimed a dog has faith just as man, and that in a salvific sense. 'Even a dog has faith'.

Yes wonman, I'm sure you can find more proof texts to show an animal has the same inherent faith and ability as a human. Please share more of these.

But hey, I got a laugh out of your ad hominem 'I don't expect you to understand this'. :laugh:

I take note that winman believes God enables man to believe, yet a dog has this inherent ability on it's own, just like humans...lol. Unreal.

 

[Skandelon]

If it has been given then you did not achieve it. It is really that simple.

What is "it"???? The "personal achievement" you have been claiming. That's the "it". Are you following?

Ok, so let's plug that into your initial quote so I can 'follow you':

"If "personal achievement" has been given then you did not achieve "personal achievement." It is really that simple."

That sentence doesn't make a lot of sense, but it seems you are attempting to argue that if God effectually made you achieve something then that it's not a "personal achievement." Would that be accurate? If so, can you give us any example of a personal achievement in your world view? Do they even exist?

 

[Skandelon]

Has any Calvinist personally achieved anything, ever? I'm pretty sure normal, objective Calvinists, ones not in the heat of a debate where they are bent on strawmanning a monster, would admit that they do in fact have personal achievements. They would just give glory to God for those personal achievements because they believe He effectually caused them to come to pass.

I don't believe any rational thinking Calvinist would deny that he personally achieved that which God effectually caused him to personally achieve, as that would be pure non-sense. But some apparently would rather adopt a position of pure non-sense than to willingly enter a rational discussion with a fellow believer who happens to disagree with them on any soteriological point.

 

[Winman]

Notice that Skandelon and Quantum cannot respond to the words of Christ on this issue? All they can do is hi five each other about their false teaching that man can boast in knowing God as a personal achievement. The hebrew term used by Biblical writes does not support them so they run to Webster. Just too proud to simply admit they are wrong and so obviously wrong.

You are just plain wrong. The word translated "glorieth" and "glory" in Jeremiah 9:24 is the word halal which is translated as "boast" ten times in the King James Bible. Here are a few examples.

Psa 34:2 My soul shall make her boast in the LORD: the humble shall hear thereof, and be glad.

Psa 44:5 Through thee will we push down our enemies: through thy name will we tread them under that rise up against us.
6 For I will not trust in my bow, neither shall my sword save me.
7 But thou hast saved us from our enemies, and hast put them to shame that hated us.
8 In God we boast all the day long, and praise thy name for ever. Selah.

These verses are very similar to Psa 118:6

Psa 118:6 The LORD is on my side; I will not fear: what can man do unto me?

It is not wrong to boast in the Lord when you trust in him. This is shown over and over again, especially in the OT.

Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

You guys are ridiculous and it is obvious you are just trying to gang up on Skandelon and misrepresent him.

 

[Winman]

:laugh: :laugh:

Apples and oranges.

Not at all.

You've claimed a dog has faith just as man, and that in a salvific sense. 'Even a dog has faith'.

Dogs do have faith, and any person who has ever owned dogs will tell you that. Dogs are often afraid of strangers and will bark at them, but they trust persons they know. Now, that is not for salvation of course, but animals have faith. Other animals that have faith are cats and horses, and I am sure many others.

Yes wonman, I'm sure you can find more proof texts to show an animal has the same inherent faith and ability as a human. Please share more of these.

Well, those verses about the young ravens are very young ravens that their mother pushes out of the nest. They cry unto God for sustenance. That sounds pretty inherent to me.

But hey, I got a laugh out of your ad hominem 'I don't expect you to understand this'. :laugh:

Well, you are not the sharpest crayon in the box. Sad, but true.

But I take note that winman believes God enables man to believe, yet a dog has this inherent ability on it's own, just like humans...lol. Unreal.

No man can believe what he has not heard and does not know. This is shown by Paul himself;

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Does Paul ask how a man shall believe on Jesus unless he is regenerated? NOPE, Paul does not say that here or anywhere in scripture. Paul simply implies that a man must hear of Jesus to believe on him. This shows that man's inability is due to ignorance or lack of knowledge, not that he is unable to believe.

Now you show me where Paul ever says a man must be regenerated to have the ability to believe. You can't do it.

 

[Protestant]

Faith is the gift and work of God, yet winman you teach it is of man, and that even a dog has the same faith as man. :laugh:

I’ve no doubt Winman brings his most ‘faithful’ pet to the local Roman Catholic Church for ‘The Blessing of Pets’ every October 4th.

(I will make an educated guess that the pet is a Pomeranian named ‘Foo-Foo.’)

I quote the ‘blessing’ from authoritative sources:

“Foo-Foo, may you be blessed in the Name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”

[The Priest makes the sign of the cross on Foo-Foo’s forehead]

"May you and brother Winman enjoy life together and find joy with the God who created you."

Foo-Foo’s favorite film: “All Dogs Go To Heaven.”

Favorite Quote: “All dogs go to heaven because, unlike people, dogs are naturally good and loyal and kind.”

 

[convicted1]

Brother, I don' believe any animal has faith, but there's no way of proving they do or don't either. Dogs have love, and I think that might be what you're misapplying for faith, imo...

Not at all.



Dogs do have faith, and any person who has ever owned dogs will tell you that. Dogs are often afraid of strangers and will bark at them, but they trust persons they know. Now, that is not for salvation of course, but animals have faith. Other animals that have faith are cats and horses, and I am sure many others.



Well, those verses about the young ravens are very young ravens that their mother pushes out of the nest. They cry unto God for sustenance. That sounds pretty inherent to me.



Well, you are not the sharpest crayon in the box. Sad, but true.



No man can believe what he has not heard and does not know. This is shown by Paul himself;

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Does Paul ask how a man shall believe on Jesus unless he is regenerated? NOPE, Paul does not say that here or anywhere in scripture. Paul simply implies that a man must hear of Jesus to believe on him. This shows that man's inability is due to ignorance or lack of knowledge, not that he is unable to believe.

Now you show me where Paul ever says a man must be regenerated to have the ability to believe. You can't do it.

 

[Winman]

I’ve no doubt Winman brings his most ‘faithful’ pet to the local Roman Catholic Church for ‘The Blessing of Pets’ every October 4th.

(I will make an educated guess that the pet is a Pomeranian named ‘Foo-Foo.’)

I quote the ‘blessing’ from authoritative sources:

“Foo-Foo, may you be blessed in the Name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”

[The Priest makes the sign of the cross on Foo-Foo’s forehead]

"May you and brother Winman enjoy life together and find joy with the God who created you."

Foo-Foo’s favorite film: “All Dogs Go To Heaven.”

Favorite Quote: “All dogs go to heaven because, unlike people, dogs are naturally good and loyal and kind.”

I'm not sure what breed he is, but I call him Protestant.

 

[Protestant]

I'm not sure what breed he is, but I call him Protestant.

She is of the Arminian/Pelagian breed.

Any sinless baby should know that.

I'm sure the Franciscan priest, the nuns, parishioners and all their animal friends get a huge laugh when you bring her to the 'blessing.'

I'd even bet St. Francis himself is smiling up from Perdition.

 

[convicted1]

Brother Protestant, that's no way of showing respect to a fellow Brother in Christ...I am talking about the pet and blessing post...

 

[convicted1]

Come on Brother, you're better than this. Keep your blows above the belt please...

I'm not sure what breed he is, but I call him Protestant.

 

[preacher4truth]

She is of the Arminian/Pelagian breed.

Any sinless baby should know that.

I'm sure the Franciscan priest, the nuns, parishioners and all their animal friends get a huge laugh when you bring her to the 'blessing.'

I'd even bet St. Francis himself is smiling up from Perdition.

lol...:laugh: :laugh:

The important thing to remember is that on BB we have a 'mod' 'moderating' and giving infractions to others who do not believe knowing the Lord is a 'personal achievement'.

All those who believe it is all of grace, and not due to personal achievement are to be 'watched closely' as enemies. I've not met a Baptist in real life that believes the practices supported here.

This and you'll be called a liar, something ALLEGEDLY against BB rules, and the evidence of the accusation will remain unfounded and allowable.

But, dare a person call these who believe they've attained knowledge of the Lord via personal achievement the same, and it's a guarantee said will be singled out and harassed thread to thread.

 

[Winman]

Come on Brother, you're better than this. Keep your blows above the belt please...

This was the best post in this entire thread!

Has Calvinism turned you into a crybaby? I have been called every name in the book and then some, and I have managed to maintain my sense of humor.

I liked you much better when you were a rotten Arminian.