Single Predestination

[MB]

No claim from THIS Calvinist that "asking is saving yourself" (that argument fails the "smell test").
I wonder if you have any speculations on why YOU were convicted of your sins when you heard the Word and so many are not? Or why you were convicted WHEN you were convicted and not any of the previous times sin was discussed with you?

I had been wrestling with conviction for quite a while. When I was 14 years old my family and I went to church 3 to 4 times a week. My parents were very dedicated Baptist we took part in most everything. It seems that I have known about Jesus all my life as I was growing up. I knew the gospel and had to memorize it every day . This I had no choice in. My parents made sure that the Bible study came first before everything else. I resisted yet I went along with what they made me do.The night I was saved the Holy Spirit was working on my resistance and I was convicted of it as well as all my other sins. The Holy Spirit made me sorry for my sins and I confessed them and asked the Lord to save me. I cried like a baby because He took all my sins away. It was a release of the past I was in slavery for. The evidence of this is that my whole self changed. My attitudes, planning, friends and desires. Not to say that I'm perfect because I'm not but I'm not the same as I was before.
MB

 

[atpollard]

I've heard this before yet You don't know what is going on inside of a person to know if they are convicted or not. You simply cannot know this unless of course you have ESP and can read minds. I had been convicted many times before I was saved, I just did not respond. My conviction was not complete the first few times. Some times a person is convicted many times before they seek God's help

Have you ever been convicted of your sins? If I hadn't been convicted I would not have been saved and you can't be forgiven of your sins with out confessing them. Confession does not come with out conviction first.
MB

I will avoid making generalizations and state that THIS Calvinist would agree with everything that you wrote.

• We do repent because we have been convicted of our sins (who repents of something they do not feel bad about?)
• We come to know conviction because we have heard the word of God (How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? [Romans 10:14 NASB]).

Where Calvinist Christians differ from the Free Will Christians is in the view that God does something even before we hear the word ... God prepares the soil to receive the seed (Matthew 13:18-23).

So the issue between Calvinism and Arminianism really comes down to the question of whether God prepares ALL of the soil (all human hearts) to receive the seed (hear the word) or does God only prepare some of the soil to be "good soil" in which the truth will take root, grow and thrive? Unfortunately, scripture gives no definitive answer or the discussion would have been resolved LONG AGO.

I see it more like ...

• [Romans 14:5-6 NASB] 5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day [alike.] Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.

... So let him who believes that God DRAWS His "elect" give praise to the SOVEREIGNTY of God, and let him who believes that God INVITES "all men" give praise to the LOVING GRACE of God ... for either way, God is surely worthy of all Praise!

Soli Deo Gloria!
(To God Alone belongs all of the Glory!)

 

[MB]

What happens when you, like I, fail to do his will. When you refuse to surrender because you love your sin and don't want to let it go?

Read it careffully;
1Co_6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

Being that all things are lawful explains this next verse;
1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

My opinion of these two different verses is that if we are trully born of God we no longer sin because we are no longer under the Law.. Paul wrote;

Rom_3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Rom_6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Many object to this mostly I suppose they believe a Christian is perfect,however we both know better we are not yet perfect. This is why Christians are not under the law and why Christians do nott sin

Your sentiment is nice, but the proof is in the pudding. Like all humanity, you sin on a daily basis. Like Paul, you can say "the things I want to do, I do not do and the things I don't want to do, I do. Who will deliver me from this body of sin?"

In your position, where you choose God, it must equally be that you can unchoose God at any time. Your salvation is then dependent upon your attitude at any given moment.

There is no repentance of Salvation for anyone because we are sealed. It's a done deal.Forever would not be forever if we could walk away or loose it some other way

This, by the way, is a Nazarene and Weslyan view so you wouldn't be the only one with that position.

I'm not of the Arminian type. My faith came from God's word not from Catholicism or Calvinism.
MB

 

[Particular]

My opinion of these two different verses is that if we are trully born of God we no longer sin because we are no longer under the Law.. Paul wrote;


Many object to this mostly I suppose they believe a Christian is perfect,however we both know better we are not yet perfect. This is why Christians are not under the law and why Christians do nott sin.

I confess I don't know how you juxtapose your first paragraph with your second paragraph.

On one hand you say "if we are trully born of God we no longer sin," and on the other hand you say "we both know better we are not yet perfect."

This seems like a contradiction to me. Please explain how you overcome this seeming contradiction.

 

[Scott Downey]

I confess I don't know how you juxtapose your first paragraph with your second paragraph.

On one hand you say "if we are trully born of God we no longer sin," and on the other hand you say "we both know better we are not yet perfect."

This seems like a contradiction to me. Please explain how you overcome this seeming contradiction.

I will tell you how those who are in Christ do not sin.
We know that it is the spirit of a man which is created by God according to righteousness and holiness by the Holy Spirit when we are begotten again, and that newborn spirit is joined to the Lord God as one spirit with Him. When we are in Him, there is no sin, but this is speaking of the new creation, not the flesh (body) which is dead because of sin, and dying it dies eventually, but the spirit has eternal life in God as God and them abide together as one. A saved spirit is in Christ and can not ever sin in the Spirit, it has been perfected in the Spirit and will always be joined to the Lord. But the flesh part, which is the old man comprising the body, soul, the mind, can and does sin. those parts of a man are not yet redeemed and wont be until the resurrection age. But that which is born of God CAN NOT SIN, notice v9. Honestly this points to the truth of eternal life for them who are in Christ. God has put away their sin through Christ who abides in them.

This is why Apostle John says
I john 3
5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. (when we are in Him)
6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.

9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.
Those who are in Christ have passed from death into Life and will not come under judgement.

 

[Particular]

I will tell you how those who are in Christ do not sin.
We know that it is the spirit of a man which is created by God according to righteousness and holiness by the Holy Spirit when we are begotten again, and that newborn spirit is joined to the Lord God as one spirit with Him. When we are in Him, there is no sin, but this is speaking of the new creation, not the flesh (body) which is dead because of sin, and dying it dies eventually, but the spirit has eternal life in God as God and them abide together as one. A saved spirit is in Christ and can not ever sin in the Spirit, it has been perfected in the Spirit and will always be joined to the Lord. But the flesh part, which is the old man comprising the body, soul, the mind, can and does sin. those parts of a man are not yet redeemed and wont be until the resurrection age. But that which is born of God CAN NOT SIN, notice v9. Honestly this points to the truth of eternal life for them who are in Christ. God has put away their sin through Christ who abides in them.

This is why Apostle John says
I john 3
5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. (when we are in Him)
6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.

9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.
Those who are in Christ have passed from death into Life and will not come under judgement.

So here is how I take those verses.
Christ Jesus is God and God cannot sin. When God the Father judges us, he will see the substitutionary atonement of Jesus and see that our sin was redeemed on the cross. This includes all the past, present and future sins in our life. It is solely by Jesus substitutionary atonement that we stand before God the Father and are not condemned.
What John did not mean was that once we are adopted we no longer sin. Of course we sin. Daily we sin. But God's wrath for that sin is meted out on Christ Jesus at the cross.
It is, therefore, only because of being found in Christ that we stand before God uncondemned.

 

[Scott Downey]

So here is how I take those verses.
Christ Jesus is God and God cannot sin. When God the Father judges us, he will see the substitutionary atonement of Jesus and see that our sin was redeemed on the cross. This includes all the past, present and future sins in our life. It is solely by Jesus substitutionary atonement that we stand before God the Father and are not condemned.
What John did not mean was that once we are adopted we no longer sin. Of course we sin. Daily we sin. But God's wrath for that sin is meted out on Christ Jesus at the cross.
It is, therefore, only because of being found in Christ that we stand before God uncondemned.

Scripture specifically says 'he cannot sin' so this means a lot more than sinning and being forgiven your sin. It is impossible for him to sin who is born again.

9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

The only way to comprehend this is for those who are in Christ we do not know them according to the flesh any longer.
2 Corinthians 5
16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

So John is talking about the new creation in 1 John 3:9, and it does not and indeed can not sin.

Paul tells us about the old man of the flesh, and the new man of the spirit, and they both are at work in our life. The old man of the flesh sins, but the new man of the Spirit can not sin. Paul tells us to no longer live as the old man of the flesh and sin, we have that choice to make.

 

[MB]

I confess I don't know how you juxtapose your first paragraph with your second paragraph.

On one hand you say "if we are trully born of God we no longer sin," and on the other hand you say "we both know better we are not yet perfect."

This seems like a contradiction to me. Please explain how you overcome this seeming contradiction.

It's the spirit of man that has been regenerated, not his flesh. The spirit is willing and want good the flesh prefers sin. When Christ returns he will change the flesh and make it perfect as well
Paul wrote;
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

Paul does what he hates because his flesh is still carnal and is not under the control of the spirit. Paul says;

Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

The sin dwells with in his flesh not his spirit.

Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
The flesh will never be perfect until Christ makes it perfect our spirit needs to cease control of the flesh as much as we can. IMHO it's war we fight every day and we will always need God's help to over come the desires of the flesh. we have to die daily to sin
MB

 

[Particular]

It's the spirit of man that has been regenerated, not his flesh. The spirit is willing and want good the flesh prefers sin. When Christ returns he will change the flesh and make it perfect as well
Paul wrote;
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

Paul does what he hates because his flesh is still carnal and is not under the control of the spirit. Paul says;

Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

The sin dwells with in his flesh not his spirit.

Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
The flesh will never be perfect until Christ makes it perfect our spirit needs to cease control of the flesh as much as we can. IMHO it's war we fight every day and we will always need God's help to over come the desires of the flesh. we have to die daily to sin
MB

MB, your teaching here sounds gnostic.

 

[MB]

MB, your teaching here sounds gnostic.

Then maybe you shouldn't ask me questions if that's how you really feel. I didn't really expect you to understand. this is where those deep things of God are spoken of.
MB

 

[Particular]

Then maybe you shouldn't ask me questions if that's how you really feel. I didn't really expect you to understand. this is where those deep things of God are spoken of.
MB

Are you teaching gnosticism?
You state that the spirit is perfect, but the body is evil.

A primary belief of Gnosticism was dualism. This idea purports that a cosmological conflict of antithetic forces exists and will always be polar opposites. In plain English, this means that throughout time and space certain contrary forces have and will struggle against each other. These forces are matter and spirit, evil and good, darkness and light, much like the Oriental yin and yang. In such a dualistic system, no overlapping or gray area is allowed.

This belief, coupled with the Gnostic idea that believers had been initiated into the "knowledge" (gnosis) of salvation, led Gnostics to think one of two ways:

That the only way to attain true spirituality is to deny their flesh (matter) of anything that might tempt them to sin. Those who thought this way became ascetics.

The opposite extreme, that the things done in the body are inconsequential because only the spirit counts.

Gnosticism (Forerunner Commentary)

 

[ivdavid]

Hopefully you recognize that I have responded to your questions. Hopefully you see how I understand mercy and grace as they relate to each other.
You may not agree ( that's fine), but at least you see how I differentiate between mercy and grace.

Yes, your responses have been helpful in understanding your position better. Honestly, I agree with the core concepts though I disagree with some of the inferences.

The difference is that God does not continue in mercy to those for whom their sins must be brought to account.

I can agree with this statement as such. From this, would you also agree that where God's mercy is not continued, we can surely determine them not to be elect?

For those whose sins were brought to account by Jesus and are redeemed, God graciously sees them in Christ.

This is where your semantics get confusing for me. Now, I do agree with this statement as such. But I also find this to be the complementary equivalent of saying God mercifully does not see you as you deserve to be seen in your own sinfulness. You seem to be skipping this part - don't you deserve to be judged according to your own sins which God spares you from by graciously seeing you in Christ? Why separate the two? Would it help your semantics if you let me say that grace and mercy occur together to the elect whereas the non-elect may enjoy only mercy but not grace?

Without God's mercy, we could never know His grace.

I can agree with this. Where God's grace is, His mercy must have preceded. And I agree it's not necessarily the other way around - where God's mercy is, there need not be accompanying grace in God doing anything further in them.

It is God's grace that saves us.

Would you describe God's giving of a new heart and His Holy Spirit an act of grace? And if I understand your beliefs right, the non-elect are never given this grace?

 

[MB]

Are you teaching gnosticism?
You state that the spirit is perfect, but the body is evil.

Gnosticism (Forerunner Commentary)

Your insults are uncalled for. From now on ask your Husband and if you don't have one. It's no wonder.
MB

 

[Particular]

Your insults are uncalled for. From now on ask your Husband and if you don't have one. It's no wonder.
MB

I'm asking about your theology and what you are saying. There is no personal statement in my question.
What you have stated sounds like gnosticism.
Is the spirit perfect?
Is the body evil?

I have literally quoted your statements back to you. I am asking for your theology. It comes across as gnosticism. What is it?

 

[Particular]

Scripture specifically says 'he cannot sin' so this means a lot more than sinning and being forgiven your sin. It is impossible for him to sin who is born again.

9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

The only way to comprehend this is for those who are in Christ we do not know them according to the flesh any longer.
2 Corinthians 5
16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

So John is talking about the new creation in 1 John 3:9, and it does not and indeed can not sin.

Paul tells us about the old man of the flesh, and the new man of the spirit, and they both are at work in our life. The old man of the flesh sins, but the new man of the Spirit can not sin. Paul tells us to no longer live as the old man of the flesh and sin, we have that choice to make.

This is a prime example of "already, not yet."
Our position in heaven is in Christ, but in this life we cry out like Paul...

Romans 7:14-25 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

 

[Scott Downey]

This is a prime example of "already, not yet."
Our position in heaven is in Christ, but in this life we cry out like Paul...

Romans 7:14-25 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

Yes, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Every person born again is spirit, soul and body. The born of God spirit inside of you is what has eternal life.

And it is the spirit that is saved, not the body as it is, it must die and be replaced by a glorified resurrected body.
The new man inside of you is the spirit and it is renewed according to the image of Him who created it. Colossians 3:10, and the new man (spirit) can not sin. But the flesh (body, soul, mind) does sin

I place the mind as part of the soul and as part of the flesh, our minds must also be renewed and are not automatically when we are born of God.
Romans 12:2
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
2 Corinthians 4:16
[ Seeing the Invisible ] Therefore we do not lose heart. Even though our outward man is perishing, yet the inward man is being renewed day by day.
Ephesians 4:23
and be renewed in the spirit of your mind,

Colossians 3:10
and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him,

 

[Particular]

Yes, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Every person born again is spirit, soul and body. The born of God spirit inside of you is what has eternal life.

And it is the spirit that is saved, not the body as it is, it must die and be replaced by a glorified resurrected body.
The new man inside of you is the spirit and it is renewed according to the image of Him who created it. Colossians 3:10, and the new man (spirit) can not sin. But the flesh (body, soul, mind) does sin

I place the mind as part of the soul and as part of the flesh, our minds must also be renewed and are not automatically when we are born of God.
Romans 12:2
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
2 Corinthians 4:16
[ Seeing the Invisible ] Therefore we do not lose heart. Even though our outward man is perishing, yet the inward man is being renewed day by day.
Ephesians 4:23
and be renewed in the spirit of your mind,

Colossians 3:10
and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him,

I see us as wicked and wretched the and through. It is only by grace that we have any standing before God. It is only because we exist in Christ that God sees us as righteous. There is nothing about us that is righteous at all. Glory be to Christ Jesus. It is Christ who lives in me that makes me righteous. (Galatians 2:20)

 

[Particular]

Scripture specifically says 'he cannot sin' so this means a lot more than sinning and being forgiven your sin. It is impossible for him to sin who is born again.

9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

The only way to comprehend this is for those who are in Christ we do not know them according to the flesh any longer.
2 Corinthians 5
16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

So John is talking about the new creation in 1 John 3:9, and it does not and indeed can not sin.

Paul tells us about the old man of the flesh, and the new man of the spirit, and they both are at work in our life. The old man of the flesh sins, but the new man of the Spirit can not sin. Paul tells us to no longer live as the old man of the flesh and sin, we have that choice to make.

No one is saying that Jesus is sinning. I'm saying that you and I are sinners and we sin. There is no sinless perfection that we can attain. We are wretched through and through. Christ is perfect through and through. When God judges us, he will spare us only because Jesus took the wrath of God in our place.
We are not righteousness. We cannot be righteous. Our only hope is Jesus substitutionary atonement. Jesus is the new Adam and only in Christ can we be made righteous. It's all Christ and none of us.

 

[tyndale1946]

No one is saying that Jesus is sinning. I'm saying that you and I are sinners and we sin. There is no sinless perfection that we can attain. We are wretched through and through. Christ is perfect through and through. When God judges us, he will spare us only because Jesus took the wrath of God in our place.
We are not righteousness. We cannot be righteous. Our only hope is Jesus substitutionary atonement. Jesus is the new Adam and only in Christ can we be made righteous. It's all Christ and none of us.

If it is not 100% Christ, why need Christ?... Christ is dead in vain!... Brother Glen

 

[Particular]

If it is not 100% Christ, why need Christ?... Christ is dead in vain!... Brother Glen

edited: I misread your post initially.
Yes, if it is not 100% Christ then we have reason to boast.