Single Predestination

[Scott Downey]

No one is saying that Jesus is sinning. I'm saying that you and I are sinners and we sin. There is no sinless perfection that we can attain. We are wretched through and through. Christ is perfect through and through. When God judges us, he will spare us only because Jesus took the wrath of God in our place.
We are not righteousness. We cannot be righteous. Our only hope is Jesus substitutionary atonement. Jesus is the new Adam and only in Christ can we be made righteous. It's all Christ and none of us.

Hebrews 12 specifically states that justified men's spirits are made perfect.
This is not sinless perfectionism and we still have not been glorified with a glorified body.
Sinless perfectionism as I understand the teaching is you have to maintain your own perfect sinlessness or you have lost your salvation.
There will be no sin allowed into or in God's heaven, so then it is perfected all them that are there.
AND, we have come is our present reality. This here is not a future reality.

22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

Either scripture is true or God is a liar.

 

[Particular]

Hebrews 12 specifically states that justified men's spirits are made perfect.
This is not sinless perfectionism and we still have not been glorified with a glorified body.
Sinless perfectionism as I understand the teaching is you have to maintain your own perfect sinlessness or you have lost your salvation.
There will be no sin allowed into or in God's heaven, so then it is perfected all them that are there.
AND, we have come is our present reality. This here is not a future reality.

22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

Either scripture is true or God is a liar.

Scott, Hebrews 12:22-24 gives us an understanding of our corporate worship. It is not saying that we have reached spiritual perfection. The verses prior to this explain.

Hebrews 12:7-24 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. Therefore lift your drooping hands and strengthen your weak knees, and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be put out of joint but rather be healed. Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no “root of bitterness” springs up and causes trouble, and by it many become defiled; that no one is sexually immoral or unholy like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal. For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears. For you have not come to what may be touched, a blazing fire and darkness and gloom and a tempest and the sound of a trumpet and a voice whose words made the hearers beg that no further messages be spoken to them. For they could not endure the order that was given, “If even a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned.” Indeed, so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, “I tremble with fear.” But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

There is no need for discipline if we are sinless and perfect. There is no need for sanctification if we are sinless and perfect. All that would need to change is for us to shed our skin.
I don't think you are teaching a correct doctrine regarding our present state.

 

[MB]

Hebrews 12 specifically states that justified men's spirits are made perfect.
This is not sinless perfectionism and we still have not been glorified with a glorified body.
Sinless perfectionism as I understand the teaching is you have to maintain your own perfect sinlessness or you have lost your salvation.
There will be no sin allowed into or in God's heaven, so then it is perfected all them that are there.
AND, we have come is our present reality. This here is not a future reality.

22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

Either scripture is true or God is a liar.

After being born again we appear perfect because we wear the righteousness of Christ. Particular doesn't understand after all she is a woman.
MB

 

[37818]

Asking is not saving [one's self]. . . .

God does the saving, but not because of any work of faith, immersion (Mark 16:16), confession (Romans 10:9-10 or prayer (Romans 10:13-14, ". . . For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? . . .").

Romans 1:16, ". . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . ."

Romans 4:4-5, ". . . Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. . . ."

 

[Scott Downey]

Scott, Hebrews 12:22-24 gives us an understanding of our corporate worship. It is not saying that we have reached spiritual perfection. The verses prior to this explain.

Hebrews 12:7-24 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. Therefore lift your drooping hands and strengthen your weak knees, and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be put out of joint but rather be healed. Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no “root of bitterness” springs up and causes trouble, and by it many become defiled; that no one is sexually immoral or unholy like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal. For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears. For you have not come to what may be touched, a blazing fire and darkness and gloom and a tempest and the sound of a trumpet and a voice whose words made the hearers beg that no further messages be spoken to them. For they could not endure the order that was given, “If even a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned.” Indeed, so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, “I tremble with fear.” But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

There is no need for discipline if we are sinless and perfect. There is no need for sanctification if we are sinless and perfect. All that would need to change is for us to shed our skin.
I don't think you are teaching a correct doctrine regarding our present state.

We are not sinlessly perfect, but your ignoring the flesh versus the spirit and saying it is all one and the same as a single person inseparable when it is not.
God separates them even if you can't see that.
Here we see the distinct parts that make up a whole person,
soul- spirit- joints, marrow (body)
When you die you don't go intact to heaven, your divided asunder and your spirit departs to be with God.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

 

[37818]

Jesus' teaching about the need for the new birth, as found in Matthrew, Mark and Luke's accounts.

Matthew 18:3, ". . . And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. . . ."

Mark 10:15, ". . . Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein. . . ."

Luke 18:17, ". . . Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein. . . ."

 

[MB]

God does the saving, but not because of any work of faith, immersion (Mark 16:16), confession (Romans 10:9-10 or prayer (Romans 10:13-14, ". . . For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? . . .").

Romans 1:16, ". . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . ."

Romans 4:4-5, ". . . Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. . . ."

Faith is not a work for Salvation.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
You should look that verse over other wise this verse would be a lie. We both know that it isn't a lie a man does not work faith thats why it says "to him that worketh not but believes"
MB

 

[37818]

Faith is not a work for Salvation.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
You should look that verse over other wise this verse would be a lie. We both know that it isn't a lie a man does not work faith thats why it says "to him that worketh not but believes"
MB

Read my post again.
Let me simply state it this way. Faith is not ever counted as a work in order to be saved. There are promises of salvation citing a work of faith and faith. Mark 16:16; Romans 10:9; Romans 10:13-14. In none of those references citing a work, are those works ever presented as requirements in order to be saved.

 

[Particular]

After being born again we appear perfect because we wear the righteousness of Christ. Particular doesn't understand after all she is a woman.
MB

@JonC how do you judge the above post. Fair or unfair?

MB, God sees Jesus, who is perfect. Jesus is our substitute before the Father. Apart from Christ we are wretched beings.
Second, in Hebrews 12:23, "the spirits of the righteous made perfect" is a reference to the dead in Christ who worship around the throne. It does not refer to us who are alive on this earth.

 

[ivdavid]

... So let him who believes that God DRAWS His "elect" give praise to the SOVEREIGNTY of God, and let him who believes that God INVITES "all men" give praise to the LOVING GRACE of God ... for either way, God is surely worthy of all Praise!

Yes. Isn't it more desirable then for all believers to give praise to God's Sovereignty and Loving Grace without having to prioritize one over the other? This is scripturally and logically possible in Single Predestination.

 

[atpollard]

Yes. Isn't it more desirable then for all believers to give praise to God's Sovereignty and Loving Grace without having to prioritize one over the other? This is scripturally and logically possible in Single Predestination.

I like single Predestination to salvation with a chance for the non-elect to change their mind and choose salvation as a personal choice (and I would vote for it if God gave me a vote). I just don’t think that Scripture supports that.

What does “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him” (John 6:44) mean if some are drawn and the rest have the freedom to come or not to come?

What does “you do not believe because you are not of My sheep” (John 10:26) and “My Father, who has given [My sheep] to Me” (John 10:29) mean if some are drawn and the rest have the freedom to come or not to come?

The very act of God drawing SOME and giving SOME, creates a second group ... those not drawn and not given. Scripture is done harm by trying to fit “free will” choice into the group “not drawn/given” by robbing God of sovereignty and denying scripture.

So “Single Predestination” is a logical possibility, it is just a hard case to make from scripture.

 

[ivdavid]

I like single Predestination to salvation with a chance for the non-elect to change their mind and choose salvation as a personal choice

That's not what single predestination proposes - there is nobody capable of changing their mind by themselves. When God is viewed as offering salvation, it's Him doing the same supernatural work of giving a new heart and His Spirit to the non-elect, enlightening them (Heb 6:4) with the truth of Christ (Heb 10:26) and leading them to repentance (Heb 6:6) and showing them the way of righteousness (2Pet 2:21). The only difference in such cases lies in which nature is operative in the elect and non-elect - God's Spirit or the self/flesh - in making them persevere to walk in this free gift without falling away. Refer Post #70 too for the comparison.

Scripture is done harm by trying to fit “free will” choice into the group “not drawn/given” by robbing God of sovereignty...

2 points here - Firstly, God's sovereignty is not robbed if it is His Sovereign purpose to want the non-elect to be permitted self-determinism to contrast His ways with the creatures' as shown in the above Post#70 reference. Secondly, the very concept of faith negates any self-glorification, even in the non-elect, as elaborated in Post #113.

I too don't want this to be a matter of what we prefer personally - but am trying to reconcile all of Scriptures. The starting point for me upholding Single Predestination is in God revealing His conditional desire that all repent and live, which would be in direct contradiction to a predestined decree of His for them to be condemned.

 

[Scott Downey]

That's not what single predestination proposes - there is nobody capable of changing their mind by themselves. When God is viewed as offering salvation, it's Him doing the same supernatural work of giving a new heart and His Spirit to the non-elect, enlightening them (Heb 6:4) with the truth of Christ (Heb 10:26) and leading them to repentance (Heb 6:6) and showing them the way of righteousness (2Pet 2:21). The only difference in such cases lies in which nature is operative in the elect and non-elect - God's Spirit or the self/flesh - in making them persevere to walk in this free gift without falling away. Refer Post #70 too for the comparison.


2 points here - Firstly, God's sovereignty is not robbed if it is His Sovereign purpose to want the non-elect to be permitted self-determinism to contrast His ways with the creatures' as shown in the above Post#70 reference. Secondly, the very concept of faith negates any self-glorification, even in the non-elect, as elaborated in Post #113.

I too don't want this to be a matter of what we prefer personally - but am trying to reconcile all of Scriptures. The starting point for me upholding Single Predestination is in God revealing His conditional desire that all repent and live, which would be in direct contradiction to a predestined decree of His for them to be condemned.

Since it is by grace that you are saved by faith and this is not of yourselves it is the gift of God, then any salvation of a person is all done by God. Jesus also says those who come to the light , the works they do are done in God so not of themselves.
But these wicked, do not come to the light. They just do not do so because they do evil things and they hate the light, which would be Christ. We are back to the enmity of the carnally minded evil doers who can not be submitted to God's laws.
And these wicked evil doers are condemned already, like it is just not going to change for them by anything they can do, they are what they are, unless God changes their heart by giving them a new spirit. A man must be born again before he will believe in Christ, otherwise they do not have the love of God in them, as they are not of God. And Jesus said those who are not 'of God' do not hear God. I would say not only do they not hear as in hearken and obey, God is not even speaking to them.
Because faith comes by hearing ,and hearing by the word of God, so faith comes by hearing God speak, and they do not hear because they are not of God.

And God's work is that you believe in Christ, and God does not fail in what He does.

Whether God wants them to believe matters not, as they never will, even though God commands all men everywhere to repent and believe in Christ, they can not do so, because they do evil.

John 3
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

And I half expect my posts to suddenly go poof!, so I figure a few people will get to read what I just wrote.

 

[ivdavid]

Since it is by grace that you are saved by faith and this is not of yourselves it is the gift of God, then any salvation of a person is all done by God. Jesus also says those who come to the light , the works they do are done in God so not of themselves.
But these wicked, do not come to the light. They just do not do so because they do evil things and they hate the light, which would be Christ. We are back to the enmity of the carnally minded evil doers who can not be submitted to God's laws.

In agreement entirely.

And these wicked evil doers are condemned already

Disagree, if the 'already condemned' here refers to 'before the foundation of the world, before any man's good or evil'. But that's what's being debated on this thread - Is calvinist predestined reprobation/condemnation valid or not.

Also, you do see the self-contradiction here, right? The wicked are condemned for their own specific evil acts, and God's election occurs before any man's good or evil and yet calvinism holds predestined condemnation as part of God's election?

like it is just not going to change for them by anything they can do, they are what they are, unless God changes their heart...

Completely in agreement.

...by giving them a new spirit.

Like I've expanded in Post #100, I don't hold your same view of the new heart = new spirit. I distinguish between them as 2 distinct parts - performing 2 very different roles. While the spirit is God's nature in man comparable and contrasted with our self-nature/flesh, the heart is simply the core storage of all our personal beliefs from which proceed all ensuing actions and emotions.

I believe regeneration of the heart by giving a new heart is sufficient to lead the non-elect to repentance without them yet being born again in the spirit, from which they do eventually fall away precisely because they are not born again.

A man must be born again before he will believe in Christ, otherwise they do not have the love of God in them...

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins
Some have received the knowledge of the truth and still draw back and fall away from the faith into perdition (Heb 10:39). These surely were not born again - how then did they receive the knowledge of the truth and be enlightened unto repentance?

...as they are not of God.

Agreed. They do fall away because they are not born again of God, neither are they with the elect promises of God.

 

[ivdavid]

And Jesus said those who are not 'of God' do not hear God. I would say not only do they not hear as in hearken and obey, God is not even speaking to them.

This is precisely the sentiment that I am against in calvinism - the attribution of a certain characteristic to God which I find directly opposed in Scriptures.
Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Did not God send these very prophets to speak to Israel - desiring them to repent and live?

1Sa 10:6 And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man.
1Sa 10:7 And let it be, when these signs are come unto thee, that thou do as occasion serve thee; for God is with thee.
1Sa 10:9 And it was so, that when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, God gave him another heart: and all those signs came to pass that day.
1Sa 10:10 And when they came thither to the hill, behold, a company of prophets met him; and the Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied among them.

Is king saul elect then, according to your interpretation that the non-elect are never even spoken to by God, let alone be supernaturally worked upon?

 

[ivdavid]

Whether God wants them to believe matters not, as they never will, even though God commands all men everywhere to repent and believe in Christ, they can not do so, because they do evil.

My focus is not on man, what he's able to do or not. That matters not. I'm focusing on what implications arise about God's nature and consistency - and that does matter.

Why would God even want them to believe in the first place, if He has already predestined and pre-decreed condemnation over the non-elect? Why would God want them to repent and live after decreeing that they die? How can there be internal contradictions and inconsistencies within God Himself? Now, it would have been consistent if God had never expressed His desire for non-elect man to repent and live just like He does to the non-elect angels - but Scriptures reveal otherwise. So how do you reconcile this?

 

[Calminian]

From tracing the origins of the calvinist-arminian divide, I'm seeing one of the key root issues is the calvinist doctrine of predestined reprobation/condemnation of non-elect man. Without this, a case can be made for the reconciliation of calvinism and arminianism - and if single predestination is shown to be logically and scripturally consistent, i'm presuming both camps should be happy to embrace it without any reluctance.

I'd like to think I'm familiar with most of the common arguments on this topic and I'll try not rehashing any of those. My personal goal is to debate and share my persuasion of what I see in Scriptures to be the uniting truth of God's single predestination of man to salvation - but no such predestination of man to condemnation before any of man's works of good and evil. And this is so without compromising on any of the attributes of God that calvinism or arminianism uphold.

I actually don't see the problem with double predestination. God is just, and is basing his redemptive decisions on his wisdom and foreknowledge. Thus, He must have chosen not to save some from eternity past.

 

[ivdavid]

I actually don't see the problem with double predestination. God is just, and is basing his redemptive decisions on his wisdom and foreknowledge. Thus, He must have chosen not to save some from eternity past.

I too don't see the problem per se with God not providing any means of redemption in a Savior to some of His creatures - we see that explicitly with the non-elect angels. It's just that God reveals that He doesn't do the same with non-elect man in that He reveals His desire for the non-elect too to repent and live.

Also, the error lies in conflating terms - would you say "God chose some to save" or "God chose some to promise to save them" (Rom 9:8)? I guess we skip the words because His promises are immutable and God promising to do something is equivalent to Him doing it.

 

[Calminian]

I too don't see the problem per se with God not providing any means of redemption in a Savior to some of His creatures - we see that explicitly with the non-elect angels. It's just that God reveals that He doesn't do the same with non-elect man in that He reveals His desire for the non-elect too to repent and live.

Also, the error lies in conflating terms - would you say "God chose some to save" or "God chose some to promise to save them" (Rom 9:8)? I guess we skip the words because His promises are immutable and God promising to do something is equivalent to Him doing it.

I would say that God, from eternity past, chose to save unworthy ungodly believers, and not save unworthy ungodly non-believers.

 

[ivdavid]

I would say that God, from eternity past, chose to save unworthy ungodly believers, and not save unworthy ungodly non-believers.

Okay. And how do you relate the Promise with being elect and non-elect?
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Not all Children are of God. Children of Promise = elect. Children of the Flesh = non-elect.

Why didn't Paul simply start differentiating by the election of grace instead of by the Promise? He carries this on in Gal 3,4 and other places too. The point is that God chose some to save assuredly - this does not logically imply He chose the rest never to be saved.

Again, if God made an active predetermined choice not to save the non-elect, why then does He later reveal His desire for them to repent and live. Isn't that a direct contradiction?