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"Sinless Perfection" before God.
- Thread starter Hobie
- Start date
Scott Downey
Well-Known Member
Ephesians 5 demonstrates our perfection, and it is spiritual perfection.
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her,
26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word,
27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish.
There is the old man of the flesh, which can not be perfected, but there is the NEW man of the SPIRIT which is perfected spiritually, and the 2 dont mix.
That is why Jesus tells us you shall be perfect , there is no way you can strive for perfection in your spirit, it is a characteristic of the new creation in Christ that is perfect before God, without spot or blemish, otherwise it could not have an eternal life with God indwelling your spirit. His church will be without spot or blemish, spiritually, in the Spirit.
Matthew 5:48
Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.
BUT we are judged for the deeds done in the body (the flesh). We are not judged negatively for deeds done according to the Spirit's will for us if we are spiritually united as one spirit with HIM, that relationship is perfect in every possible way. For example God has prepared beforehand good works for us to do, and those works then are truly good works against which there is no judgement of condemnation.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.
God knows how to divide soul from spirit.
Hebrews 12
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,
23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
There is then such a thing as sinless perfection, but it only exists in the Spirit with His Holy Spirit joined together with us as one spirit in Him. That is the perfection of the relationship and eternal life.
Paul also describes the difference between joined in the flesh versus joined in the spirit, in both joining's they become as all of ONE.
1 Corinthians 6:16-18
New King James Version
16 Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For “the two,” He says, “shall become one flesh.”
17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
18 Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body.
John 10:16
And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.
ONLY the spirit of a man is saved, the body is not. We get a new spirit when born of God, but the body is dead because of sin. We get a new glorious body at the resurrection. When you die, only your NEW spirit in Christ goes to be with the LORD. We have then a spiritual body and a physical body, read 1 Corinthians 15..
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her,
26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word,
27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish.
There is the old man of the flesh, which can not be perfected, but there is the NEW man of the SPIRIT which is perfected spiritually, and the 2 dont mix.
That is why Jesus tells us you shall be perfect , there is no way you can strive for perfection in your spirit, it is a characteristic of the new creation in Christ that is perfect before God, without spot or blemish, otherwise it could not have an eternal life with God indwelling your spirit. His church will be without spot or blemish, spiritually, in the Spirit.
Matthew 5:48
Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.
BUT we are judged for the deeds done in the body (the flesh). We are not judged negatively for deeds done according to the Spirit's will for us if we are spiritually united as one spirit with HIM, that relationship is perfect in every possible way. For example God has prepared beforehand good works for us to do, and those works then are truly good works against which there is no judgement of condemnation.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.
God knows how to divide soul from spirit.
Hebrews 12
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,
23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
There is then such a thing as sinless perfection, but it only exists in the Spirit with His Holy Spirit joined together with us as one spirit in Him. That is the perfection of the relationship and eternal life.
Paul also describes the difference between joined in the flesh versus joined in the spirit, in both joining's they become as all of ONE.
1 Corinthians 6:16-18
New King James Version
16 Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For “the two,” He says, “shall become one flesh.”
17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
18 Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body.
John 10:16
And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.
ONLY the spirit of a man is saved, the body is not. We get a new spirit when born of God, but the body is dead because of sin. We get a new glorious body at the resurrection. When you die, only your NEW spirit in Christ goes to be with the LORD. We have then a spiritual body and a physical body, read 1 Corinthians 15..
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
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Hobie, we stand condemned before God. It is only when we are found "in Christ" that we are seen as perfect because God the Father sees God the Son in our place.
mailmandan
Active Member
Either we will stand before God clothed in the righteousness which is of God by faith (Philippians 3:9) or else we will stand clothed in our own filthy rags of self righteousness. (Isaiah 64:6) It’s one or the other. (Romans 3:23; 6:23)
We stand before God, found in Christ. His righteousness exchanged for our sin.
Galatians 2:20
Hobie
Well-Known Member
Yet Christ shows those who truly know Him and will not take any who are found with iniquity before the Father.
Matthew 7:23
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Matthew 13:41
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Colossians 1:11-14
May you be strengthened with all power, according to his glorious might, for all endurance and patience with joy, giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in light. He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
Colossians 1:21-22
And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him.
Hobie
Well-Known Member
So do you think we will bring us with our sin and iniquity to heaven before God, or worse, God make us into mindless entities with no will of our own. I don't think the scripture support that.
Hobie
Well-Known Member
But we have to turn to Christ, chose with free will the gift He has, the inheritance He has waiting for us.
Ephesians 2:4-9
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Hobie, you have created a law that God has not made. Like the pharisees, you have created a requirement that God does not require.
Ellen White stated that in the Investigative Judgement, we shall have no Mediator, and that each person must show a life as conforming to the Law of Moses in order to pass judgement and keep eternal life!
As much as SDA hate catholics, and have thier prophetess, they can have a chicken for a prophet for all I care still better then Calvinist version of God.
SDA actually believe God is Good and that will always be a 1-up over your theology.
Sure they are wierd, paranoid and end days obsessed, But they got one thing right is that God is actually Good.
If we hung around God for a week, the Calvinist is the first to crack "Lord.....ain't that too merciful?" Do your shoulders need cooling?, "lord he's not even Christian" "but lord what about the tulip?"
Calvinist view of salvation can and does get one saved, sda view keeps one lost!
In case anyone needed a Laugh--> Calvinist spread joy and good news everywhere around the world.
Reformed have traditionally been very strong in missions.
Paul from Antioch
Active Member
I personally am more of a "Calvinist," but prefer to say that "I'm a believer in the Doctrines of Grace." Both ends of the soteriological spectrum (To me at least!) can, and at times DO, point out something that runs counter to their perception of what God's Word tells us. I can't recall who it who said this, but it's true that, "I am saved, am being saved, and yet to be saved." EX: A person (like me) can say that I'm OSAS. Then some will tell me something like, "You mean to tell me that once a person is saved, he'll NEVER, EVER sin no more??" My reply is that when a person is saved, his "Wanter" gets saved, but NOT in an instant. Even Paul needed instruction(s) from time to time, and cautioned those who questioned his salvation. Apart from God the Son, I find no greater missionary-minded human than Paul of Tarsus. He wrote in Romans not only chs 7-8, but also chs 11. But it says "Whosoever Will," doesn't it? Yes it does, but what about "Whosoever WON'T"? God didn't tell us exactly who are those in either category, but Jesus in Acts 1 DID tells us to be witnesses. A witness (From which our word "Martyr" is derived.), doesn't usually cause an accident, but if he/she is a "Good Samaritan," she/he will do what they can to rescue the victim(s). BTW, Acts 1 isn't merely a suggestion, but a DIRECT COMMAND! Do I always consistently obey my "Orders from HQ"? No, but I can trust what I John chs 1-2 ff has to say. The musical trio of Peter, Paul and Mary were known for what to them was more of an anti-war song, but they did hit upon one truth: "When will they ever learn?" It's OK to sometimes question another's theological perspective, but as brothers and sisters of our Savior, I don't believe that gives us the grounds to dogmatically 110+% that so-and-so "Couldn't possibly be saved & believe what he/she does!" Selah.
Hobie
Well-Known Member
Many try to say that the Bible doesnt teach overcoming sin and yet Christ repeats it over and over and we clearly see it in other verses. We can see what Jesus is saying in this verse, “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” Now the question becomes is God the Father absolutely sinless, or is He harboring imperfection that transgresses His law of love. Of course not.
Its clear that sinless obedience is the only sensible explanation for the perfection enjoined in Matthew 5:48. No created being, however sinless, can match the God of heaven in love or maturity. But they can in fact be as free from sin as He is, and Christ brings us to it by cleansing us from sin and creating in us a new heart.
Now some claim the word “perfect” in Matthew 5:48 is not being translated correct and means something else or a less clear meaning. Now is true there are times in Scripture when the word translated "perfect" does not refer to sinless obedience, though at other times, as in the following verses, it clearly does:
There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil. (Job 1:1)
And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered My servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?” (Job 1:8).
This equating of Job’s perfection with sinless obedience is demonstrated further in passages to come, in which, despite the trials brought upon hit its clear, that Job “sinned not”...
In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly. (Job 1:22)
But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips. (Job 2:10).
Its clear that sinless obedience is the only sensible explanation for the perfection enjoined in Matthew 5:48. No created being, however sinless, can match the God of heaven in love or maturity. But they can in fact be as free from sin as He is, and Christ brings us to it by cleansing us from sin and creating in us a new heart.
Now some claim the word “perfect” in Matthew 5:48 is not being translated correct and means something else or a less clear meaning. Now is true there are times in Scripture when the word translated "perfect" does not refer to sinless obedience, though at other times, as in the following verses, it clearly does:
There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil. (Job 1:1)
And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered My servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?” (Job 1:8).
This equating of Job’s perfection with sinless obedience is demonstrated further in passages to come, in which, despite the trials brought upon hit its clear, that Job “sinned not”...
In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly. (Job 1:22)
But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips. (Job 2:10).
Wow. You really mishandle God's word and thus create a falsehood.
Only God is sinless and perfect. We are found in Christ. It is Christ whom God sees as perfect because Christ is God.
Hobie
Well-Known Member
So does Christ say go and continue in sin, of course not, He says go and "sin no more", so need to open your eyes and ears and see what Gods Word says..
Did they never sin again? Of course not. Jesus was referring to a specific sin they had habitually done. "Sin no more." The human nature is corrupt and will tend toward sin. This is why John wrote: "If we confess our sin He is faithful and just to forgive our sin and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:9) We fall and miss the mark, but God...God places us in Christ and Christ hit the mark.
My eyes and ears are open. Apart from Christ, I am doomed. Praise Jesus for his propitiation for my sin.