Sinless Perfection

[Dr. Bob]

Since so many are bent on judging others, how 'bout we look at ourselves and see if "sinless perfection" or "eradication of our sin nature" will make ANY OF US unable to be judged a sinner?

Anyone other than me totally free from sin?

 

[Phillip]

Sin??? What is that? Never tried it?

 

[bonniej]

Evidently I have been tried and convicted. I thought of all people I could confess my sin and have people pray for me but I guess I was wrong. I just posted a thread tonight and it was long and I don't know what I expected but I guess I made someone angry as the thread is gone. I made a confession and have been pretty much called a name that I won't repeat. Instead of a little understanding and since these couple of people have never walked in my shoes and since they are supposed to be Christians, I thought - that's what I get - there would be more praying then condemnation. For those of you who did offer to pray, I appreciate it. I am not a bad person. I have made some mistakes and am trying hard to figure out my life and make my marriage work. But these couple of folks have made me doubt Christians like I have never doubted before. Trust is gone and I know now, I can't post any longer on this forum. I am sorry for all I have done and I believe I said that but I guess that wasn't enough - burning at the stake is only good enough for some. I hope these that have offered to pray will continue to do so. I am not without sin - not saved or unsaved person is. It was a mistake posting that thread and I am now convinced it was a mistake joining this forum for more than one reason. I seem to be making all kinds of mistakes lately. I know God will forgive, and I guess that counts more than people.

 

[Dr. Bob]

What on earth are you talking about BA? Nobody here is allowed to do such. If you desire to open up to share and find advice, many will respond I'm sure.

We appreciated reading your other posts and getting to know you better and pray for you.

Now, to the subject (nothing to do with your post, dear lady). Does anyone believe in "sinless perfection"?

 

[Bro Tony]

DR Bob,

There was a long post started by BA that has now disappeared in it she shared and asked for prayer.

Bro Tony

 

[Dr. Bob]

Thanks for the heads up. But she and you are NOT sinlessly perfect, right?

Only Bob.

 

[Marcia]

We can't be without sin until after death when we are fully redeemed. We are redeemed now from the penalty for sin and are in the process of becoming more perfect (complete) but cannot be totally perfect/complete until after death with God.

 

[Watchman]

As to the original question. Even the Apostle Paul said of himself "Oh wretched man that I am!"
He didn't regard himself as attaining sinless perfection, as such, I can't see how anyone else can get there.

 

[Phillip]

Right, all we can do is strive for perfection.

 

[Craigbythesea]

As to the original question. Even the Apostle Paul said of himself "Oh wretched man that I am!"
He didn't regard himself as attaining sinless perfection, as such, I can't see how anyone else can get there.

Barbaric Nonsense!

Paul said no such thing about himself. The “I” in Romans 7:14-25 is rhetorical and was seen to be obviously so until the Church began to fall into the depths Roman Catholic error and the dark ages. Since then, the Roman Catholic Church has repented of their error, and admit that the I is rhetorical, but some protestants have not yet repented of degrading the character of the apostle Paul.

14. For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.
15. For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
16. But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.
17. So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
18. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
19. For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
20. But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
21. I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.
22. For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
23. but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
24. Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
25. Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

And how do we know for certain that the “I” is rhetorical? From Paul’s own personal testimony:

Phil. 3:1. Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things again is no trouble to me, and it is a safeguard for you.
2. Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the false circumcision;
3. for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh,
4. although I myself might have confidence even in the flesh. If anyone else has a mind to put confidence in the flesh, I far more:
5. circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee;
6. as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless.

Paul expressly says that, as to the righteousness of the Law, he was "BLAMELESS"! That’s right—blameless! Are we to suppose that AFTER Paul was saved that he became a “wretched man” “sold unto sin”? Is that the kind of salvation that Paul preached??? That getting saved makes a man “wretched” and “sold unto sin”?


Earlier in Romans chapter 7 Paul wrote:

4. Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.

6. But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Why would Paul, having been made "dead to" (and "released from") the Law through the body of Christ, find himself, as a Christian, trying to be a good, Old Testament Jew under the Law? And that is EXACTLY what the rhetorical man in Rom. 7:14-25 is trying to do, he is trying to be a good, Old Testament Jew under the Law.

14. For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.
15. For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
16. But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.
17. So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
18. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
19. For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
20. But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
21. I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.
22. For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
23. but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.

If this is a description of what the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit do for a man, Baptists have one messed up religion! However,

Jesus DID NOT die on the cross to sell us into bondage to sin! JESUS DIED ON THE CROSS TO REDEEM US FROM SIN!

Rom. 3:19. Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;
20. because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
Justification by Faith
21. But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22. even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
23. for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24. being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
25. whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
26. for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
27. Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Matt. 5:48. "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

John 5:14. Afterward Jesus *found him in the temple and said to him, "Behold, you have become well; do not sin anymore, so that nothing worse happens to you."

John 8:11. She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "I do not condemn you, either. Go. From now on sin no more."

Satan’s favorite responses:

Do you sin?

Have you ever met anyone who does not sin?

Paul said that he was the chief of sinners.

It is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
11. THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
12. ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."
13. "THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE, WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING," "THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS";
14. "WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS";
15. "THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,
16. DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,
17. AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN."
18. "THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES."

Apostle Paul’s inspired reply,

Rom. 6:2. May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
3. Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
4. Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
5. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6. knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
7. for he who has died is freed from sin.
8. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
9. knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.
10. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
11. Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Satan replies,

Hey man, get real! You know that you can’t be perfect. Only God is perfect. If you are realistic about it, you have to admit that you sin every day!

The Holy Spirit replies through Apostle Paul,

1 Cor. 10:13. No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.

Satan replies,

That is a lie, and you know it! EVERYBODY SINS!

Jesus replies,

John 8:32. and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
33. They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, 'You will become free'?"
34. Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.
35. "The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever.
36. "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.

(All scriptures in this post and my post above are from the NASB, 1995)

 

[Craigbythesea]

Right, all we can do is strive for perfection.

Striving for perfection, all the while believing that your goal is impossible to attain, can only result in failure! And of course Satan knows that even better than we do! And he relentlessly tells us through our pastors, our Sunday school teachers, and our friends that such a goal is impossible to achieve in spite of the atonement of Christ and the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit.

However, Satan is a LIAR! We CAN quit smoking! We CAN quit cussing! We CAN lose weight! We CAN love even our enemies! We CAN do ALL these things through Christ who strengthens us. We are saved from both the guilt of sin and the power of sin by grace through faith. There is NOTHING that Satan can do about the grace of God, so he attacks our faith and says, “You can NOT stop sinning!” “You can NOT stop sinning!” “You can NOT stop sinning!” And most of the Christians that I know choose to believe Satan rather than God, and many even argue on Satan’s behalf with all the courage and gusto that they can muster!

 

[Link]

Jesus said that he who commits sin is the servant of sin.

He says in the same chapter that if the Son shall set you free, ye shall be free indeed. Doesn't the context seem to imply that the 'freedom' here is freedom from sin, which entails not committing sin?

Paul's "O wretched man that I am" describes his (real or rhetorical) state under the law. He was subject to the law of sin and death. But in chapter 8 we see that he had been freed from the law of sin and death by the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.

Paul also taught that for every temptation, God provides a way of escape, that ye may be able to bear it. So it is possible to overcome any temptation for sin. Since this is the case, then living a life of sinless perfection is acheivable for Christians. But the New Testament also makes provision for our sins to be forgiven if we confess them, and gives instructions regarding what to do if a brother falls into sin, so we can see that believers still could sin in the early church as well.

I see no scripture that teaches that a believer reaches a 'state' of sinless perfection in his life. One of the problems with the doctrine is you get people who claim to be sinless who aren't, who don't want to admit that they have sinned and so do not confess it.

 

[Watchman]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />As to the original question. Even the Apostle Paul said of himself "Oh wretched man that I am!"
He didn't regard himself as attaining sinless perfection, as such, I can't see how anyone else can get there.

Barbaric Nonsense!

Paul said no such thing about himself. The “I” in Romans 7:14-25 is rhetorical and was seen to be obviously so until the Church began to fall into the depths Roman Catholic error and the dark ages. Since then, the Roman Catholic Church has repented of their error, and admit that the I is rhetorical, but some protestants have not yet repented of degrading the character of the apostle Paul.

</font>[/QUOTE]This is an old ploy: when you don't like the way a passage reads, call it (or a part of it) rhetorical, or allegory or the passage is corrupted.
So, one can attain, in this life, sinless perfection? Do I read you right? Remember that there are not only sins of commision, but omission as well.
I certainly am not degrading the character of the Apostle Paul. If Paul were to see this he would rent his clothes at the suggestion he had attained sinless perfection.
What you are proposing is awfully close to what Mormons teach. Maybe we can get to be so good that we can be made a god!
Talk about nonsense!
Now, in the eyes of God, we are without sin because of the blood of Christ, but literally attaining sinless perfection? Not in anyone's lifetime.
John said that if we say we HAVE (present tense, even if you don't like that word either)no sin we deceive ourselves.
Take the Word of God for what it says.

 

[Bro Tony]

Thanks for the heads up. But she and you are NOT sinlessly perfect, right?

Only Bob.

Not til I see Him face to face. The teaching of sinless perfection is dangerous because I believe it causes people to trust in themselves rather than in a daily walk and relationship with Jesus. We must walk daily submitted to Him in order to walk in righteousness. Those who walk in themselves will fulfill the lust of the flesh. This seems to be our big struggle as Christians. Who is going to be in control. I genuinely believe the sin of the Christian is taking the control of their own lives and that results in the sins we commit.

I met a AOG pastor who believed in loosing ones salvation. I asked him if he was concerned about loosing his. He told me no for he had reached the place of sinless perfection

Bro Tony

 

[Dr. Bob]

"But if we [saved] walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from every sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. But when [not subjunctive "if" like possible not to, but 3rd class conditional "when"] any sins, we [believers] have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: and He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins."

Short Greek lesson: I John 2:1-2 is a 3rd class conditional sentence. We think "if" we sin; the Greek says "when" we sin. We will.

Except Bob, of course. And Tony's AOG pastor friend!

 

[Craigbythesea]

This is an old ploy: when you don't like the way a passage reads, call it (or a part of it) rhetorical, or allegory or the passage is corrupted.

By far and away the most common argument put forth by theologians to show that Rom. 14-25 is the experience of a Christian rather than a Jew is the argument from the doctrine of total depravity. According to this argument, the man portrayed in the passage before us can NOT be an unregenerate man, for only a regenerate man could say of himself,

“I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man” (Rom. 7:22, NASB, 1995)

or

“For I delight in the law of God after the inward man” (Rom. 7:22, KJV, 1769).

However, the application of the doctrine of total depravity, even if it is imagined to be a true doctrine, to the interpretation of these words betrays a most unfortunate lack of understanding of these words and the context in which they are found. Paul is still arguing that all Jews have sinned and therefore come short of the glory of God, including the man portrayed in the rhetorical “I” in this passage of Scripture, a Jew of the very finest caliber. Whether or not a Jew of this caliber can or can not actually be found is, of course, irrelevant. What is relevant is that NO Jew hearing or reading the words of our Apostle could argue that he was one bit better than the Jew portrayed here, a Jew who joyfully concurs with the law of God in the inner man, but who sees a different law at work in the members of his body, waging a war against the law of his mind and making him a prisoner of the law of sin which is in his members. And this Jew cries out, “Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?” And to that most pitiful cry of helplessness and despair Paul answers, “Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!” and then summarized his argument that all Jews have sinned and therefore come short of the glory of God, including the man portrayed in the rhetorical “I” in this passage of Scripture, “So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.”

And having concluded his argument that we all, including even the Jew of the highest caliber, “have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;” Paul begins the next chapter, Rom. 8:

8:1. Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
8:2. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

There is NOW no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, BECAUSE THEY HAVE BEEN SET FREE from the law of sin and death that had held them captive prisoners. And how have they been set free? They have been set free by “the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.” Could this possibly be the man who, in Rom. 7:14, was portrayed as “sold into bondage to sin?” Paul answers that question for us,

8:3. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
8:4. so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

And notice that the last phrase of Rom. 8:4 is not conditional; it is consequential: Because of what God did through the gift of His grace in Christ Jesus, we do not “walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.”

John 8:36. "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.”

If these words are not true of you, dear readers, they can be true of you by grace through faith:

Eph. 2:1. And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2. in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
4. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5. even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6. and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7. so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9. not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
11. Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so- called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands--
12. remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
13. But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14. For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,
15. by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,
16. and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.
17. AND HE CAME AND PREACHED PEACE TO YOU WHO WERE FAR AWAY, AND PEACE TO THOSE WHO WERE NEAR;
18. for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father.
19. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household,
20. having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone,
21. in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord,
22. in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.

(All scriptures NASB, 1995 unless otherwise noted)

 

[Craigbythesea]

So, one can attain, in this life, sinless perfection? Do I read you right?

If you read me right, you would see that I only argued that the "I" of Rom. 7:14-25 is to be understood as rhetorical. Paul was NOT "sold unto sin." To argue that he was “sold into sin” not only makes a mockery of the Epistle to the Romans; it makes a mockery of the atonement of Christ.

As Adam Clarke wrote in his commentary on the Bible,

It is difficult to conceive how the opinion could have crept into the Church, or prevailed there, that “the apostle speaks here of his regenerate state; and that what was, in such a state, true of himself, must be true of all others in the same state.” This opinion has, most pitifully and most shamefully, not only lowered the standard of Christianity, but destroyed its influence and disgraced its character. It requires but little knowledge of the spirit of the Gospel, and of the scope of this epistle, to see that the apostle is, here, either personating a Jew under the law and without the Gospel, or showing what his own state was when he was deeply convinced that by the deeds of the law no man could be justified, and had not as yet heard those blessed words: Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way, hath sent me that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost, Act_9:17.

And Charles Spurgeon wrote of Adam Clarke’s commentary,

“This is one of the most learned of English expositions.”

 

[JBE]

Quote by Watchman
--------------------------------------------------
"What you are proposing is awfully close to what Mormons teach. Maybe we can get to be so good that we can be made a god!
Talk about nonsense!"
--------------------------------------------------

Wathcman

I don't understand what you mean by the above quote, please explain.

You are right when you said that in the eyes of God we are perfect. We are if we have been born again by the spirit of God. That's what grace is.
We will never be completly without sin in this life but that is no excuse to sin. When we sin it's our own fault [not the devil's] Because we have been saved from the power of sin and the penalty of sin. Romans 6


I have a test for you to determine your spirital level of maturity. if your interested??

I thing craigbythesea hit the nail on the head.

 

[scooter]

craigbythesea wrote

And Charles Spurgeon wrote of Adam Clarke’s commentary,

“This is one of the most learned of English expositions.”

You were doing okay until you mentioned Spurgeon. You should read what he had to say about the passage in Romans 7.

"If I chose to occupy your time with controversial matter, I might prove to a demonstration that the apostle Paul is here describing his own experience as a Christian. Some have affirmed that he is merely declaring what he was before conversion, and not what he was when he became the recipient of the grace of God. But such persons are evidently mistaken, and I believe wilfully mistaken; for any ample-hearted, candid mind, reading through this chapter, could not fall into such an error. It is Paul the apostle, who was not less than the very greatest of the apostles—it is Paul, the mighty servant of God, a very prince in Israel, one of the King's mighty men—it is Paul, the saint and the apostle, who here exclaims, 'O wretched man that I am!'" From the message titled, The Fainting Warrior.