Slavery: Why did Paul....

[superdave]

Paul clearly in Ephesians teaches the relationship guidelines for Masters and Slaves along with the other familial relationships. I don't see how that lines up with Slavery being immoral Biblically. I agree that to kidnap a person and place them in slavery is immoral and wrong, but the Slavery Paul is addressing in the NT is not the same as what we had here in America with slaves being kidnapped, and tortured, and sold as property. The cultural differences are probably more related to what Paul was referring to as "Slaves" than what was acceptable in the culture. Paul clearly did not object to the practice of Slavery in some fashion, I have heard it likened more to the employer employee relationships that we are familiar with. But clearly there was the concept of the ownership of slaves, so it is a difficult distinction.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Bro. John Willis:
Larry & Bob;
Contrary to your opinion, slavery/slave-trading, called manstealing in the KJV, is sin and punishable by death. (Ex. 21:16)
This must certainly mean that all of the "good Baptist slaveholders" of the South were guilty of continual sin and under a just condemnation of death...possibly even Hell because their full repentance would have to be suspect.

Perhaps you missed the NT, but we are not under the Law anymore. Additionally, as I have repeatedly said and you seem to miss, slavery in the first century was not what is typically thought of as slavery. You need to study the historical context before you go popping off like this.

Slavery, int he first century, was a desired state by many people. It was an easier life than that of a freedman. I realize that doesn't fit your soapbox real well, but you are going to have to deal with it anyway.

THIS IS what the Bible says on the matter Larry & Bob,either accept it and change your views or reject it and deal with Jesus on the matter.[/qutoe]It is you who need to change your views. I have studied this in the last couple of weeks because I preached from Titus 2:9-10 where Paul tells slaves to be good and faithful slaves.

Isn't there a direct commandment against stealing? What could be worse than stealing a man?

Just more evidence that you are not talking about what we are talking about and what Paul is talking about. Get in the NT and out of your little social context.

People tend to forget very shameful actions committed by themselves and their loved ones and this qualifies as being very shameful.

I have no guilty ancestors and don't care in the least if I did. I have nothing to be ashamed about. I have never held one slave. Perhaps your guilty conscience is striking you. As for me, I can let the text say what it does.

It goes like this, "Paul doesn't openly condemn slavery...therefore he condones it.."

I haven't seen anyone here say this.

or, "he sends Onesimus back to be Philemon's slave.."

He does. Do you deny Scripture and the teaching of Christ?

or, "Paul tells slaves to be good slaves and to continue being such..".

[/qb=]He does. Do you deny Scripture and the teaching of Christ?

[qb]Sound familiar?

The last two do. They come right out of the text that God gave us. The first doesn't sound familiar. It sounds like something you made up.

White Supremancy basically says that if it is White then it is Right.

No one here is arguing for White Supremacy that I know of. You need to get up in the 21st century.

Ask yourself, is this the true foundation for my theological viewpoint or is it truly the Bible.[/qutoe]Your viewpoint doesn't seem to be what Scripture teaches, at least when it refers to slaves. You are confusing issues. You are assuming that what Paul dealt with in the first century is what you are talking about. Nothing could be further from the truth. The Bible speaks clearly to the issues of slaves in the first century. Before you start trying to figure out what it says to the 21st (or 19th) century, figure out what it said to the original reader. It was talking about something different.

Is it possible that the sin of racism and therefore white supremancy, could be so deeply rooted in you that it has gone unnoticed and unrepented? (2Cor 13:5)

Nope.

 

[Bro. John Willis]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bro. John Willis:
Larry & Bob;
Contrary to your opinion, slavery/slave-trading, called manstealing in the KJV, is sin and punishable by death. (Ex. 21:16)
This must certainly mean that all of the "good Baptist slaveholders" of the South were guilty of continual sin and under a just condemnation of death...possibly even Hell because their full repentance would have to be suspect.

Perhaps you missed the NT, but we are not under the Law anymore. Additionally, as I have repeatedly said and you seem to miss, slavery in the first century was not what is typically thought of as slavery. You need to study the historical context before you go popping off like this.

Slavery, int he first century, was a desired state by many people. It was an easier life than that of a freedman. I realize that doesn't fit your soapbox real well, but you are going to have to deal with it anyway.

Would you care to PROVE that point, because you haven't. You know.. the easier life? True we are not under the Law, but you have no Scriptural warrant to commit sin which this obviously must be according to Paul and that is New Testament.

THIS IS what the Bible says on the matter Larry & Bob,either accept it and change your views or reject it and deal with Jesus on the matter.[/qutoe]It is you who need to change your views. I have studied this in the last couple of weeks because I preached from Titus 2:9-10 where Paul tells slaves to be good and faithful slaves.

You must make it your business to understand when Paul is talking to SAVED people which this passage is definitely speaking to. SAVED slaves were to be obedient similar to SAVED wives, for the sake of the Lord not the slavemaster who's precedence you blatantly uphold. Again the issue isn't being a good slave, but being a GOOD SAINT.
Try studying the KJV instead of commentaries.

Isn't there a direct commandment against stealing? What could be worse than stealing a man?

Just more evidence that you are not talking about what we are talking about and what Paul is talking about. Get in the NT and out of your little social context.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you in the group that says "Paul didn't speak against slavery" or "The Bible doesn't say that slavery is sin"? These are sins.

People tend to forget very shameful actions committed by themselves and their loved ones and this qualifies as being very shameful.

I have no guilty ancestors and don't care in the least if I did. I have nothing to be ashamed about. I have never held one slave. Perhaps your guilty conscience is striking you. As for me, I can let the text say what it does.


It's certain that you do not know of whom you speak. I, for sure, readily admit that I have ancestors that were former slave owners, but since I also have ancestors who were slaves and non-manumitted born freemen this makes your "guilty conscience" line non sequitur and of no import. This social context that you are so sure of only points to your acceptance of slavery as a sin that doesn't affect you because you refuse to see yourself as a proponent and beneficiary of it.

It goes like this, "Paul doesn't openly condemn slavery...therefore he condones it.."

I haven't seen anyone here say this.

You have said it as have others as implication by stating that he doesn't condemn it, which he does in 1 Tim 1:9-10. Just deal with it...confess it, forsake it and do works meet for repentance.

or, "he sends Onesimus back to be Philemon's slave.."

He does. Do you deny Scripture and the teaching of Christ?

No, but it is open that you do. He sends him back "For perhaps he therefore departed for a season, that thou shouldest receive him for ever;
NOT NOW AS A SERVANT, BUT ABOVE A SERVANT, A BROTHER BELOVED, specially to me, but how much more unto thee, both in the flesh, and in the Lord?" Philemon vs.15-16.

or, "Paul tells slaves to be good slaves and to continue being such..".

[/qb=]He does. Do you deny Scripture and the teaching of Christ?


see above

[qb]Sound familiar?

The last two do. They come right out of the text that God gave us. The first doesn't sound familiar. It sounds like something you made up.

I wish I did make it up. But alas, not so..these are implications that others on this board also picked up. You do the Word of God a great disservice by upholding human commentary greater than the Revealed Word of God.

White Supremancy basically says that if it is White then it is Right.

No one here is arguing for White Supremacy that I know of. You need to get up in the 21st century.

Contrary to your tunnel vision, White Supremancy is alive and well in 2003 and in alot of houses and hearts that name the name Baptist..right there in Michigan too. You argue for it when you don't argue against it, same as with any other sin.

Ask yourself, is this the true foundation for my theological viewpoint or is it truly the Bible.[/qutoe]Your viewpoint doesn't seem to be what Scripture teaches, at least when it refers to slaves. You are confusing issues. You are assuming that what Paul dealt with in the first century is what you are talking about. Nothing could be further from the truth. The Bible speaks clearly to the issues of slaves in the first century. Before you start trying to figure out what it says to the 21st (or 19th) century, figure out what it said to the original reader. It was talking about something different.


I've had this one down pat so to speak for over four decades. The reason...there are too many people today who would enjoy a return to slavery. It's just that when I hear someone in 2003 say the same things that a Nathan Bedford Forrest or David Duke said on this topic, I can only conclude that they bear watching. And with that open rebuke if the person is Baptist especially an elder.

Is it possible that the sin of racism and therefore white supremancy, could be so deeply rooted in you that it has gone unnoticed and unrepented? (2Cor 13:5)

Nope.

</font>

Well, thank God for verification. The fact that you won't even admit the possibility indicts you. Facts are that all whites in the US benefit from slavery and this means you too. That wouldn't matter to former slaves except for the fact that it isn't even acknowledged or just out right denied by many whites. Simple truth is that because you refuse to renounce ALL aspects of this sin, you are saying that it and it's proponents are right.

IT'S STILL A SIN and God hasn't changed His Mind on it nor any other sin.

Now before you get nerve enough to do it....(use the 'N' word)..I have no axe to grind. I was Baptized and Ordained by First Baptist Church, in Cicero,IL...the MOST BIGOTED town in the US for a number of years! The pastors and people there treated me as a fellow-yokeman in the Lord and stood up against the town for their perogative to have a "Black" in the membership of their church. So I have nothing against whites, even though some have issue with me. There are many things that I could tell you from the mouths of those that were once slaves that are very shocking to say the least.We must all deal with our own "racisms", simply because it is sin and abhorrent to God. If you think for one minute that there are no racist blacks, you've got to go around the block once more.

Sadly, this is one of the biggest things that keep younger blacks from Baptist churches. Not our roots so to speak, because traditionally if you are Black and not Baptist, it's because someone is messing with your mind. Islam says that white Baptists do not love black Baptists and do not treat them the same but claim that they are brothers. Islam also teaches that the Bible was used to make blacks slaves and that to be free one must embrace the Quran. From this you can see my point about your stand for slavery...it hurts the cause of Christ. Hopefully, someone here will take these simple comments and use them to promote the true Christ-like example of love for the brethren...all the brethren.
Your brother
John

 

[Bro. John Willis]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bro. John Willis:
Larry & Bob;
Contrary to your opinion, slavery/slave-trading, called manstealing in the KJV, is sin and punishable by death. (Ex. 21:16)
This must certainly mean that all of the "good Baptist slaveholders" of the South were guilty of continual sin and under a just condemnation of death...possibly even Hell because their full repentance would have to be suspect.

Perhaps you missed the NT, but we are not under the Law anymore. Additionally, as I have repeatedly said and you seem to miss, slavery in the first century was not what is typically thought of as slavery. You need to study the historical context before you go popping off like this.

Slavery, int he first century, was a desired state by many people. It was an easier life than that of a freedman. I realize that doesn't fit your soapbox real well, but you are going to have to deal with it anyway.

Would you care to PROVE that point, because you haven't. You know.. the easier life? True we are not under the Law, but you have no Scriptural warrant to commit sin which this obviously must be according to Paul and that IS New Testament.

THIS IS what the Bible says on the matter Larry & Bob,either accept it and change your views or reject it and deal with Jesus on the matter.[/qutoe]It is you who need to change your views. I have studied this in the last couple of weeks because I preached from Titus 2:9-10 where Paul tells slaves to be good and faithful slaves.

You must make it your business to understand when Paul is talking to SAVED people which this passage is definitely speaking to. SAVED slaves were to be obedient similar to SAVED wives, for the sake of the Lord not the slavemaster who's precedence you blatantly uphold. Again the issue isn't being a good slave, but being a GOOD SAINT.
Try studying the KJV instead of commentaries.

Isn't there a direct commandment against stealing? What could be worse than stealing a man?

Just more evidence that you are not talking about what we are talking about and what Paul is talking about. Get in the NT and out of your little social context.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you in the group that says "Paul didn't speak against slavery" or "The Bible doesn't say that slavery is sin"? These are sins.

People tend to forget very shameful actions committed by themselves and their loved ones and this qualifies as being very shameful.

I have no guilty ancestors and don't care in the least if I did. I have nothing to be ashamed about. I have never held one slave. Perhaps your guilty conscience is striking you. As for me, I can let the text say what it does.


It's certain that you do not know of whom you speak. I, for sure, readily admit that I have ancestors that were former slave owners, but since I also have ancestors who were slaves and non-manumitted born freemen this makes your "guilty conscience" line non sequitur and of no import. This social context that you are so sure of only points to your acceptance of slavery as a sin that doesn't affect you because you refuse to see yourself as a proponent and beneficiary of it.

It goes like this, "Paul doesn't openly condemn slavery...therefore he condones it.."

I haven't seen anyone here say this.

You have said it as have others as implication by stating that he doesn't condemn it, which he does in 1 Tim 1:9-10. Just deal with it...confess it, forsake it and do works meet for repentance.

or, "he sends Onesimus back to be Philemon's slave.."

He does. Do you deny Scripture and the teaching of Christ?

No, but it is open that you do. He sends him back "For perhaps he therefore departed for a season, that thou shouldest receive him for ever;
NOT NOW AS A SERVANT, BUT ABOVE A SERVANT, A BROTHER BELOVED, specially to me, but how much more unto thee, both in the flesh, and in the Lord?" Philemon vs.15-16.

or, "Paul tells slaves to be good slaves and to continue being such..".

[/qb=]He does. Do you deny Scripture and the teaching of Christ?


see above

[qb]Sound familiar?

The last two do. They come right out of the text that God gave us. The first doesn't sound familiar. It sounds like something you made up.

I wish I did make it up. But alas, not so..these are implications that others on this board also picked up. You do the Word of God a great disservice by upholding human commentary greater than the Revealed Word of God.

White Supremancy basically says that if it is White then it is Right.

No one here is arguing for White Supremacy that I know of. You need to get up in the 21st century.

Contrary to your tunnel vision, White Supremancy is alive and well in 2003 and in alot of houses and hearts that name the name Baptist..right there in Michigan too. You argue for it when you don't argue against it, same as with any other sin.

Ask yourself, is this the true foundation for my theological viewpoint or is it truly the Bible.[/qutoe]Your viewpoint doesn't seem to be what Scripture teaches, at least when it refers to slaves. You are confusing issues. You are assuming that what Paul dealt with in the first century is what you are talking about. Nothing could be further from the truth. The Bible speaks clearly to the issues of slaves in the first century. Before you start trying to figure out what it says to the 21st (or 19th) century, figure out what it said to the original reader. It was talking about something different.


I've had this one down pat so to speak for over four decades. The reason...there are too many people today who would enjoy a return to slavery. It's just that when I hear someone in 2003 say the same things that a Nathan Bedford Forrest or David Duke said on this topic, I can only conclude that they bear watching. And with that open rebuke if the person is Baptist especially an elder.

Is it possible that the sin of racism and therefore white supremancy, could be so deeply rooted in you that it has gone unnoticed and unrepented? (2Cor 13:5)

Nope.

</font>

Well, thank God for verification. The fact that you won't even admit the possibility indicts you. Facts are that all whites in the US benefit from slavery and this means you too. That wouldn't matter to former slaves except for the fact that it isn't even acknowledged or just out right denied by many whites. Simple truth is that because you refuse to renounce ALL aspects of this sin, you are saying that it and it's proponents are right.

IT'S STILL A SIN and God hasn't changed His Mind on it nor any other sin.

Now before you get nerve enough to do it....(use the 'N' word)..I have no axe to grind. I was Baptized and Ordained by First Baptist Church, in Cicero,IL...the MOST BIGOTED town in the US for a number of years! The pastors and people there treated me as a fellow-yokeman in the Lord and stood up against the town for their perogative to have a "Black" in the membership of their church. So I have nothing against whites, even though some have issue with me. There are many things that I could tell you from the mouths of those that were once slaves that are very shocking to say the least.We must all deal with our own "racisms", simply because it is sin and abhorrent to God. If you think for one minute that there are no racist blacks, you've got to go around the block once more.

Sadly, this is one of the biggest things that keep younger blacks from Baptist churches. Not our roots so to speak, because traditionally if you are Black and not Baptist, it's because someone is messing with your mind. Islam says that white Baptists do not love black Baptists and do not treat them the same but claim that they are brothers. Islam also teaches that the Bible was used to make blacks slaves and that to be free one must embrace the Quran. From this you can see my point about your stand for slavery...it hurts the cause of Christ. Hopefully, someone here will take these simple comments and use them to promote the true Christ-like example of love for the brethren...all the brethren.
Your brother
John

 

[Bro. John Willis]

PLEASE FORGIVE THE PREVIOUS TWO POSTS.
HERE IS THE RIGHT ONE.
Thanks

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bro. John Willis:
Larry & Bob;
Contrary to your opinion, slavery/slave-trading, called manstealing in the KJV, is sin and punishable by death. (Ex. 21:16)
This must certainly mean that all of the "good Baptist slaveholders" of the South were guilty of continual sin and under a just condemnation of death...possibly even Hell because their full repentance would have to be suspect.

Perhaps you missed the NT, but we are not under the Law anymore. Additionally, as I have repeatedly said and you seem to miss, slavery in the first century was not what is typically thought of as slavery. You need to study the historical context before you go popping off like this.

Slavery, int he first century, was a desired state by many people. It was an easier life than that of a freedman. I realize that doesn't fit your soapbox real well, but you are going to have to deal with it anyway.

Would you care to PROVE that point, because you haven't. You know.. the easier life? True we are not under the Law, but you have no Scriptural warrant to commit sin which this obviously must be according to Paul and that IS New Testament.

THIS IS what the Bible says on the matter Larry & Bob,either accept it and change your views or reject it and deal with Jesus on the matter.[/qutoe]It is you who need to change your views. I have studied this in the last couple of weeks because I preached from Titus 2:9-10 where Paul tells slaves to be good and faithful slaves.

You must make it your business to understand when Paul is talking to SAVED people which this passage is definitely speaking to. SAVED slaves were to be obedient similar to SAVED wives, for the sake of the Lord not the slavemaster who's precedence you blatantly uphold. Again the issue isn't being a good slave, but being a GOOD SAINT.
Try studying the KJV instead of commentaries.

Isn't there a direct commandment against stealing? What could be worse than stealing a man?

Just more evidence that you are not talking about what we are talking about and what Paul is talking about. Get in the NT and out of your little social context.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you in the group that says "Paul didn't speak against slavery" or "The Bible doesn't say that slavery is sin"? These are sins.

People tend to forget very shameful actions committed by themselves and their loved ones and this qualifies as being very shameful.

I have no guilty ancestors and don't care in the least if I did. I have nothing to be ashamed about. I have never held one slave. Perhaps your guilty conscience is striking you. As for me, I can let the text say what it does.


It's certain that you do not know of whom you speak. I, for sure, readily admit that I have ancestors that were former slave owners, but since I also have ancestors who were slaves and non-manumitted born freemen this makes your "guilty conscience" line non sequitur and of no import. This social context that you are so sure of only points to your acceptance of slavery as a sin that doesn't affect you because you refuse to see yourself as a proponent and beneficiary of it.

It goes like this, "Paul doesn't openly condemn slavery...therefore he condones it.."

I haven't seen anyone here say this.

You have said it as have others as implication by stating that he doesn't condemn it, which he does in 1 Tim 1:9-10. Just deal with it...confess it, forsake it and do works meet for repentance.

or, "he sends Onesimus back to be Philemon's slave.."

He does. Do you deny Scripture and the teaching of Christ?

No, but it is open that you do. He sends him back "For perhaps he therefore departed for a season, that thou shouldest receive him for ever;
NOT NOW AS A SERVANT, BUT ABOVE A SERVANT, A BROTHER BELOVED, specially to me, but how much more unto thee, both in the flesh, and in the Lord?" Philemon vs.15-16.

or, "Paul tells slaves to be good slaves and to continue being such..".

[/qb=]He does. Do you deny Scripture and the teaching of Christ?


see above

[qb]Sound familiar?

The last two do. They come right out of the text that God gave us. The first doesn't sound familiar. It sounds like something you made up.

I wish I did make it up,that would be easier for you. But alas, not so..these are implications that others on this board also picked up. You do the Word of God a great disservice by upholding human commentary greater than the Revealed Word of God.

White Supremancy basically says that if it is White then it is Right.

No one here is arguing for White Supremacy that I know of. You need to get up in the 21st century.

Contrary to your tunnel vision, White Supremancy is alive and well in 2003 and in alot of houses and hearts that name the name Baptist..right there in Michigan too. You argue for it when you don't argue against it, same as with any other sin.

Ask yourself, is this the true foundation for my theological viewpoint or is it truly the Bible.[/qutoe]Your viewpoint doesn't seem to be what Scripture teaches, at least when it refers to slaves. You are confusing issues. You are assuming that what Paul dealt with in the first century is what you are talking about. Nothing could be further from the truth. The Bible speaks clearly to the issues of slaves in the first century. Before you start trying to figure out what it says to the 21st (or 19th) century, figure out what it said to the original reader. It was talking about something different.


I've had this one down pat so to speak for over four decades. The reason...there are too many people today who would enjoy a return to slavery. It's just that when I hear someone in 2003 say the same things that a Nathan Bedford Forrest or David Duke said on this topic, I can only conclude that they bear watching. And with that open rebuke if the person is Baptist especially an elder.

Is it possible that the sin of racism and therefore white supremancy, could be so deeply rooted in you that it has gone unnoticed and unrepented? (2Cor 13:5)

Nope.

</font>

Well, thank God for verification. The fact that you won't even admit the possibility indicts you. Facts are that all whites in the US benefit from slavery and this means you too. That wouldn't matter to former slaves except for the fact that it isn't even acknowledged or just out right denied by many whites. Simple truth is that because you refuse to renounce ALL aspects of this sin, you are saying that it and it's proponents are right.

IT'S STILL A SIN and God hasn't changed His Mind on it nor any other sin.

Now before you get nerve enough to do it....(use the 'N' word)..I have no axe to grind. I was Baptized and Ordained by First Baptist Church, in Cicero,IL...the MOST BIGOTED town in the US for a number of years! The pastors and people there treated me as a fellow-yokeman in the Lord and stood up against the town for their perogative to have a "Black" in the membership of their church. So I have nothing against whites, even though some have issue with me. There are many things that I could tell you from the mouths of those that were once slaves that are very shocking to say the least.We must all deal with our own "racisms", simply because it is sin and abhorrent to God. If you think for one minute that there are no racist blacks, you've got to go around the block once more.

Sadly, this is one of the biggest things that keep younger blacks from Baptist churches. Not our roots so to speak, because traditionally if you are Black and not Baptist, it's because someone is messing with your mind. Islam says that white Baptists do not love black Baptists and do not treat them the same but claim that they are brothers. Islam also teaches that the Bible was used to make blacks slaves and that to be free one must embrace the Quran. From this you can see my point about your stand for slavery...it hurts the cause of Christ. Hopefully, someone here will take these simple comments and use them to promote the true Christ-like example of love for the brethren...all the brethren.
Your brother
John

[ July 09, 2003, 11:15 PM: Message edited by: Bro. John Willis ]

 

[NarrowWay]

This was the SBC resolution passed in 1995 (about 50 years too late) in which they repented of their former support for slavery.

************************************************

Resolution On Racial Reconciliation On The 150th Anniversary of the Southern Baptist Convention
June 1995

WHEREAS, Since its founding in 1845, the Southern Baptist Convention has been an effective instrument of God in missions, evangelism, and social ministry; and

WHEREAS, The Scriptures teach that Eve is the mother of all living (Genesis 3:20), and that God shows no partiality, but in every nation whoever fears him and works righteousness is accepted by him (Acts 10:34-35), and that God has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on the face of the earth (Acts 17:26); and

WHEREAS, Our relationship to African-Americans has been hindered from the beginning by the role that slavery played in the formation of the Southern Baptist Convention; and

WHEREAS, Many of our Southern Baptist forbears defended the right to own slaves, and either participated in, supported, or acquiesced in the particularly inhumane nature of American slavery; and

WHEREAS, In later years Southern Baptists failed, in many cases, to support, and in some cases opposed, legitimate initiatives to secure the civil rights of African-Americans; and

WHEREAS, Racism has led to discrimination, oppression, injustice, and violence, both in the Civil War and throughout the history of our nation; and

WHEREAS, Racism has divided the body of Christ and Southern Baptists in particular, and separated us from our African-American brothers and sisters; and

WHEREAS, Many of our congregations have intentionally and/or unintentionally excluded African-Americans from worship, membership, and leadership; and

WHEREAS, Racism profoundly distorts our understanding of Christian morality, leading some Southern Baptists to believe that racial prejudice and discrimination are compatible with the Gospel; and

WHEREAS, Jesus performed the ministry of reconciliation to restore sinners to a right relationship with the Heavenly Father, and to establish right relations among all human beings, especially within the family of faith.

Therefore, be it RESOLVED, That we, the messengers to the Sesquicentennial meeting of the Southern Baptist Convention, assembled in Atlanta, Georgia, June 20-22, 1995, unwaveringly denounce racism, in all its forms, as deplorable sin; and

Be it further RESOLVED, That we affirm the Bibles teaching that every human life is sacred, and is of equal and immeasurable worth, made in Gods image, regardless of race or ethnicity (Genesis 1:27), and that, with respect to salvation through Christ, there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female, for (we) are all one in Christ Jesus (Galatians 3:28); and


Be it further RESOLVED, That we lament and repudiate historic acts of evil such as slavery from which we continue to reap a bitter harvest, and we recognize that the racism which yet plagues our culture today is inextricably tied to the past; and

Be it further RESOLVED, That we apologize to all African-Americans for condoning and/or perpetuating individual and systemic racism in our lifetime; and we genuinely repent of racism of which we have been guilty, whether consciously (Psalm 19:13) or unconsciously (Leviticus 4:27); and

Be it further RESOLVED, That we ask forgiveness from our African-American brothers and sisters, acknowledging that our own healing is at stake; and

Be it further RESOLVED, That we hereby commit ourselves to eradicate racism in all its forms from Southern Baptist life and ministry; and

Be it further RESOLVED, That we commit ourselves to be doers of the Word (James 1:22) by pursuing racial reconciliation in all our relationships, especially with our brothers and sisters in Christ (1 John 2:6), to the end that our light would so shine before others, that they may see (our) good works and glorify (our) Father in heaven (Matthew 5:16); and

Be it finally RESOLVED, That we pledge our commitment to the Great Commission task of making disciples of all people (Matthew 28:19), confessing that in the church God is calling together one people from every tribe and nation (Revelation 5:9), and proclaiming that the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ is the only certain and sufficient ground upon which redeemed persons will stand together in restored family union as joint-heirs with Christ (Romans 8:17).

Atlanta, Georgia

 

[Pastor Larry]

John,

I typed quite a lengthy response and it got lost in cyberspace. I will shorten it here. Let me start by saying that until I got to the end of your post, with virtually of my response written, I had no idea that you were black. However, what you have to realize is that I don’t care. I did not say anything wrong; I have sinned in no way. You have yet to show one verse of Scripture that I have violated. You have made stuff up and accused me of things that are clearly false. For you to accuse me of racism and supporting slavery is not only dead wrong, it is personally offensive to me. You need to get over your personal issues and realize that the vast majority of Christians are like I am. We don’t care what color you are.

Would you care to PROVE that point, because you haven't. You know.. the easier life? True we are not under the Law, but you have no Scriptural warrant to commit sin which this obviously must be according to Paul and that IS New Testament.

I have given this information. I told you where to find it. I will tell you again. Read ISBE and ZPEV (as well as other resources) for evidence that slavery is just as I described it. I have committed no sin and holding slaves in and of itself was not a sin.

You must make it your business to understand when Paul is talking to SAVED people which this passage is definitely speaking to. SAVED slaves were to be obedient similar to SAVED wives, for the sake of the Lord not the slavemaster who's precedence you blatantly uphold. Again the issue isn't being a good slave, but being a GOOD SAINT.
Try studying the KJV instead of commentaries.

I understand that. And you must make it your business to understand that Paul did not condemn or condone slavery. He merely told Christian slaves and Christian masters how to live as slaves and masters. He gave the slaves no allowance to use their salvation as a basis for rebellion. He gave Christian masters no requirement to manumit their slaves. That is the simply Bible truth, it doesn’t matter which version you use.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you in the group that says "Paul didn't speak against slavery" or "The Bible doesn't say that slavery is sin"? These are sins.

Yes. The only thing wrong with this statement is your last sentence. The Bible did not condemn it as sin. The Bible did not directly speak to it.

It's certain that you do not know of whom you speak. I, for sure, readily admit that I have ancestors that were former slave owners, but since I also have ancestors who were slaves and non-manumitted born freemen this makes your "guilty conscience" line non sequitur and of no import. This social context that you are so sure of only points to your acceptance of slavery as a sin that doesn't affect you because you refuse to see yourself as a proponent and beneficiary of it.

This is offensive to me. I do not accept slavery as you suggest. My ancestors were in Europe during slavery in this country. Furthermore, I am not my ancestors. Whatever people in the past did, that does not make anyone in the present guilty.

You have said it as have others as implication by stating that he doesn't condemn it, which he does in 1 Tim 1:9-10. Just deal with it...confess it, forsake it and do works meet for repentance.

What am I supposed to repent of??? I haven’t done anything wrong. 1 Tim 1:9-10 condemns slave dealing, not slavery per se. Other passages in the NT give clear indication to the status of slaves and masters in the NT and their responsibilities.

You do the Word of God a great disservice by upholding human commentary greater than the Revealed Word of God.

I have done no such thing.

Contrary to your tunnel vision, White Supremancy is alive and well in 2003 and in alot of houses and hearts that name the name Baptist..right there in Michigan too. You argue for it when you don't argue against it, same as with any other sin.

Perhaps there are some racist churches. I do not know of any. I live in a 50/50 community and have made deliberate efforts to reach out to the blacks in our community. I have condemned racism and refusal to accept blacks in our congregation from the pulpit many times. I have argued against any form of white supremacy and I do not know anyone in any church who thinks differently than I do. I grew up in the south and I never experienced hints of racism there. My parents have spent the better part of the last 6 years as the only white people in a black church, going on visitation and serving, trying to reach the black community with a true biblical Christianity.

I've had this one down pat so to speak for over four decades. The reason...there are too many people today who would enjoy a return to slavery. It's just that when I hear someone in 2003 say the same things that a Nathan Bedford Forrest or David Duke said on this topic, I can only conclude that they bear watching. And with that open rebuke if the person is Baptist especially an elder.

You don’t have it down pat. In fact, you are horribly uninformed if you think that I am a racist, a david duke, or anyone with any racism. You are just flat out wrong. You are trying to rebuke someone who has done nothing wrong.

The fact that you won't even admit the possibility indicts you. Facts are that all whites in the US benefit from slavery and this means you too. That wouldn't matter to former slaves except for the fact that it isn't even acknowledged or just out right denied by many whites. Simple truth is that because you refuse to renounce ALL aspects of this sin, you are saying that it and it's proponents are right.

There are no former slaves alive. They passed off the scene many many years ago. The fact that I won’t publicly admit the possibility does not indict me. It testifies to my honesty and truthfulness. I have publicly preached against all aspects of this sin.

We must all deal with our own "racisms", simply because it is sin and abhorrent to God. If you think for one minute that there are no racist blacks, you've got to go around the block once more.

It appears that you may be the one with racist attitudes. You are condemning for no reason whatsoever and that is offensive to me. I know there are racist blacks. I am convinced that most of the racists today are black, based on what I see in the society around me. In this city there have been racial tensions because of the blacks who refuse to stand up. A recent school administrator and 3 of his cronies stole over 1 million dollars from the school district and two of them (the administrator and one other) are under federal indictment for it. The only people defending them are the blacks and they are accusing everyone else of being racist for suspending this guy and starting the federal investigation. Just last week in the city council meeting, a city council member told me there was race baiting by a black man. So I am well aware of the issues you speak of. What I am saying is that when you accuse me of these attitudes, you are dead wrong and personally offensive.

From this you can see my point about your stand for slavery...it hurts the cause of Christ.

I have no stand for slavery. You refuse to see the truth. You have made stuff up and made unjust accusations. You owe me an apology and repentance for your dastardly misrepresentation of my position.

Hopefully, someone here will take these simple comments and use them to promote the true Christ-like example of love for the brethren...all the brethren.

I wish there were truth in them. The only true thing you have said is that churches are wrong to be racist. But my experience is that most people agree with that. So let’s move on.

This is a shame John. It is completely unacceptable for you to say the kind of things that you have said about me here. It is offensive to me and to the truth of God’s word. You need to seriously reconsider what I have said and properly represent it.

 

[LadyEagle]

Islam says that white Baptists do not love black Baptists and do not treat them the same but claim that they are brothers. Islam also teaches that the Bible was used to make blacks slaves and that to be free one must embrace the Quran.

Why is Islam being brought up?

This is the religion that persecutes those who are non-Muslim. This is also the very religion that treats women worse than chattel - i.e., Taleban rule in Afghanistan, making women beg for crumbs on the street to feed their children because they are not allowed to work. I fail to see how that relates to this discussion.

Did God not allow Joseph to be sold by his own brothers into slavery?

Weren't the Hebrew children taken as slaves by Nebucchadnezer?

What's the difference in the OT between a slave, a servant, or a concubine?

 

[Bro. John Willis]

Originally posted by NarrowWay:
This was the SBC resolution passed in 1995 (about 50 years too late) in which they repented of their former support for slavery.

************************************************

Resolution On Racial Reconciliation On The 150th Anniversary of the Southern Baptist Convention
June 1995

WHEREAS, Since its founding in 1845, the Southern Baptist Convention has been an effective instrument of God in missions, evangelism, and social ministry; and

WHEREAS, The Scriptures teach that Eve is the mother of all living (Genesis 3:20), and that God shows no partiality, but in every nation whoever fears him and works righteousness is accepted by him (Acts 10:34-35), and that God has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on the face of the earth (Acts 17:26); and

WHEREAS, Our relationship to African-Americans has been hindered from the beginning by the role that slavery played in the formation of the Southern Baptist Convention; and

WHEREAS, Many of our Southern Baptist forbears defended the right to own slaves, and either participated in, supported, or acquiesced in the particularly inhumane nature of American slavery; and

WHEREAS, In later years Southern Baptists failed, in many cases, to support, and in some cases opposed, legitimate initiatives to secure the civil rights of African-Americans; and

WHEREAS, Racism has led to discrimination, oppression, injustice, and violence, both in the Civil War and throughout the history of our nation; and

WHEREAS, Racism has divided the body of Christ and Southern Baptists in particular, and separated us from our African-American brothers and sisters; and

WHEREAS, Many of our congregations have intentionally and/or unintentionally excluded African-Americans from worship, membership, and leadership; and

WHEREAS, Racism profoundly distorts our understanding of Christian morality, leading some Southern Baptists to believe that racial prejudice and discrimination are compatible with the Gospel; and

WHEREAS, Jesus performed the ministry of reconciliation to restore sinners to a right relationship with the Heavenly Father, and to establish right relations among all human beings, especially within the family of faith.

Therefore, be it RESOLVED, That we, the messengers to the Sesquicentennial meeting of the Southern Baptist Convention, assembled in Atlanta, Georgia, June 20-22, 1995, unwaveringly denounce racism, in all its forms, as deplorable sin; and

Be it further RESOLVED, That we affirm the Bibles teaching that every human life is sacred, and is of equal and immeasurable worth, made in Gods image, regardless of race or ethnicity (Genesis 1:27), and that, with respect to salvation through Christ, there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female, for (we) are all one in Christ Jesus (Galatians 3:28); and


Be it further RESOLVED, That we lament and repudiate historic acts of evil such as slavery from which we continue to reap a bitter harvest, and we recognize that the racism which yet plagues our culture today is inextricably tied to the past; and

Be it further RESOLVED, That we apologize to all African-Americans for condoning and/or perpetuating individual and systemic racism in our lifetime; and we genuinely repent of racism of which we have been guilty, whether consciously (Psalm 19:13) or unconsciously (Leviticus 4:27); and

Be it further RESOLVED, That we ask forgiveness from our African-American brothers and sisters, acknowledging that our own healing is at stake; and

Be it further RESOLVED, That we hereby commit ourselves to eradicate racism in all its forms from Southern Baptist life and ministry; and

Be it further RESOLVED, That we commit ourselves to be doers of the Word (James 1:22) by pursuing racial reconciliation in all our relationships, especially with our brothers and sisters in Christ (1 John 2:6), to the end that our light would so shine before others, that they may see (our) good works and glorify (our) Father in heaven (Matthew 5:16); and

Be it finally RESOLVED, That we pledge our commitment to the Great Commission task of making disciples of all people (Matthew 28:19), confessing that in the church God is calling together one people from every tribe and nation (Revelation 5:9), and proclaiming that the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ is the only certain and sufficient ground upon which redeemed persons will stand together in restored family union as joint-heirs with Christ (Romans 8:17).

Atlanta, Georgia

Thank you NarrowWay for your post;
I am aware of this recent stand by the SBC and also its true attestment by the actions of the Convention. This public position has helped the cause of this convention in black communities. It would be a very good thing for my fellow "Independent Baptists" to take the same stand. The key issue is to understand the effects that slavery and racism had and does have on the greater progress of our (Baptist)churches. This has definitely been a great help to my ministry as you have also been. Thanks again
Your brother
John

 

[Bro. John Willis]

Originally posted by SheEagle9/11:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Islam says that white Baptists do not love black Baptists and do not treat them the same but claim that they are brothers. Islam also teaches that the Bible was used to make blacks slaves and that to be free one must embrace the Quran.

Why is Islam being brought up?

This is the religion that persecutes those who are non-Muslim. This is also the very religion that treats women worse than chattel - i.e., Taleban rule in Afghanistan, making women beg for crumbs on the street to feed their children because they are not allowed to work. I fail to see how that relates to this discussion.

Did God not allow Joseph to be sold by his own brothers into slavery?

Weren't the Hebrew children taken as slaves by Nebucchadnezer?

What's the difference in the OT between a slave, a servant, or a concubine? </font>[/QUOTE] Islam was only brought up to emphasize the difficulty in bringing younger Blacks to Christ and membership in Baptist churches when this or a similar topic is discussed. We do not promote Islam in any manner and openly condemn it in pulpits, in our TV and radio broadcasts, newspapers and street ministry.

Islam uses the type of parody and contradiction of one enslaving their brother as a propaganda tool for recruitment. Sadly...it works. This why our ministry Baptist Revivals takes such a diligent stand against all things that work to defeat Baptist distinctives. We will continue to openly expose the errors of Islam and other false religions in order to stop their steady flow of new victims.
Your brother
John

 

[Bro. John Willis]

Brother Larry;
Before I get started, I should ask how old you are, because it appears that you truly have no understanding of the issues that are addressed in my posts, especially since you claim past residency in the South. If you would carefully review my previous posts you will discover that no direct accusations were made of you being racist nor white supremist. All of the assumptions and conclusions given were made pointedly towards anyone who fits the criteria for that respective conclusion.
I cannot say that you were not offended, because I just don't know. I can and do ask why?

See brother, if none of this pertains to you,why take it personally? Again, my only attempt was to show the possiblity not probability. But again, I now think that you really don't understand this parabola.

Let me give an example:
Some years ago my wife and I were blessed to meet and grow to love a midwife who grew up in a mid-state community of Indiana. She went to Purdue University and graduated #6th in her class going on to complete her Masters in Molecular Biology. She pursued a Professional Nursing career with a declared specialty in Maternal/Child care and Labor & Delivery. She eventually married and had two children. One year when she and her family came to her parent's home for Christmas, she had an interesting conversation with her father..the topic was race relations. His position was that the races should stay in their respective places on all levels and he quoted Scripture to prove it. He also said that he was not racist and spoke against racism whenever someone spoke badly of other races, but thought that the races were intristically different and therefore should not live or be similar. He even went so far as to say that God made some people better than others and that those on top were better that those on the bottom as God ordained.
She was surprised by this...it was the first time he ever spoke on the subject, but always acted as though he in no manner had this type of outlook. Her stance and explanation to us was very plain and simple. She said that she told him that he was racist and that he didn't know it.

That surprised both him and me. Neither of us had ever heard anything like that before.

The outcome....both of us changed, her father and myself. We both saw that we were racists and needed the love and forgiveness of God Himself to cleanse us from this horrible sin and we both got it!

Now you can see why my language in these posts came out the way that it did. This is a very heinous sin and one that lies hidden in most of us personally and our churches corporately.

I applaud your efforts in your community and I exhort you to more excellent works. Sometimes its more than just a hand extended out that's needed.

I can understand your frustration with the problems that you are dealing with in your area. The issue of race relations is a very volatile subject even among blacks. However, aloofness will not correct the problem, it will only tend to make it more virile. The things that we hope or believe will correct themselves usually don't and tend to come back and haunt us.

Having said that, I want you to know that regardless of anything said and done I do and will continue to love you. I will pray (not prey) for you.

If you would like my help in the great work that you are doing in your city, I would be happy to be of service. Just go to my profile and email me.
Your brother
John

 

[Pastor Larry]

John,

I will just close with this. I am not old by any means. I am 34. I grew up in the south and have lived most of my adult life in the north. The bottom line is when I lived in the south, I never saw the kind of racism I have seen in the north and without exception, it has all been black racism against whites. I don't see the whites hating the blacks or shutting them out. I see a great number of blacks who wear it on their sleeve. What people don't realize is that the vast majority of this country, black and white, don't care what color you are. It is the vocal minority (read: idiots) who have to play the race card at every turn. You have some loudmouths like Jesse Jackson and others who insist on everything being racial. There are white people who play the race card as well. Three words: Get over it. We no longer live in the first half of this century. The best thing we can do is not try to do it now. If only Jackson and his ilk would let us. But he insists on living in the past.

Racism is wrong whether it is white against black or black against white. When race is considered in decision making, it is wrong, period, whether you are the local Baptist church or the University of Michigan Law school. The unfortunate thing is that racism can now be state sponsored. That is simply wrong. We should pursue the dream of MLKJr who spoke of the day when people would be judged by the content of their character, not the color of their skin.

As for my personal sensitivities, your accusations against me seemed to be that I was a racist, that I was condoning slavery, and the like. If I misunderstood, then I apologize. But those claims are absurd. That is why I responded the way that I did.

I can't speak for the extent of this sin in people's lives. I really don't know. I can only see how they live. I see people in my church go up and welcome black people with open arms, with hugs and warm handshakes, with conversation and inviting them to sit with them. If they are doing that while harboring racism in their hearts, I can't help that. If it is in other churches, then other pastors have to deal with that.

My point with respect to this conversation is that we do not condemn sins with the wrong use of Scripture. We cannot simply twist the text or ignore certain parts of it because it doesn't go where we wish it did. That was my concern from the beginning. We need to be accurate with Scripture. That is the only reason I got into this discussion. The racial issues are secondary to the biblical text. Let's deal properly with that first and then talk about race issues. In the end, Scripture does address racial issues and it says that we are all one in Christ (believers that is). There is no justification for racial discrimination.

We need to be faithful to the text of Scripture and that we will result in loving our neighbors as ourselves.

 

[Pastor Larry]

John,

I will just close with this. I am not old by any means. I am 34. But I love the period of history from WWII on. I grew up in the south and have lived most of my adult life in the north. The bottom line is when I lived in the south, I never saw the kind of racism I have seen in the north and without exception, it has all been black racism against whites. I don't see the whites hating the blacks or shutting them out. I see a great number of blacks who wear it on their sleeve. What people don't realize is that the vast majority of this country, black and white, don't care what color you are. It is the vocal minority (read: idiots) who have to play the race card at every turn. You have some loudmouths like Jesse Jackson and others who insist on everything being racial. There are white people who play the race card as well. Three words: Get over it. We no longer live in the first half of this century. The best thing we can do is not try to do it now. If only Jackson and his ilk would let us. But he insists on living in the past.

Racism is wrong whether it is white against black or black against white. When race is considered in decision making, it is wrong, period, whether you are the local Baptist church or the University of Michigan Law school. The unfortunate thing is that racism can now be state sponsored. That is simply wrong. We should pursue the dream of MLKJr who spoke of the day when people would be judged by the content of their character, not the color of their skin.

As for my personal sensitivities, your accusations against me seemed to be that I was a racist, that I was condoning slavery, and the like. If I misunderstood, then I apologize. But those claims are absurd. That is why I responded the way that I did.

I can't speak for the extent of this sin in people's lives. I really don't know. I can only see how they live. I see people in my church go up and welcome black people with open arms, with hugs and warm handshakes, with conversation and inviting them to sit with them. If they are doing that while harboring racism in their hearts, I can't help that. If it is in other churches, then other pastors have to deal with that.

My point with respect to this conversation is that we do not condemn sins with the wrong use of Scripture. We cannot simply twist the text or ignore certain parts of it because it doesn't go where we wish it did. That was my concern from the beginning. We need to be accurate with Scripture. That is the only reason I got into this discussion. The racial issues are secondary to the biblical text. Let's deal properly with that first and then talk about race issues. In the end, Scripture does address racial issues and it says that we are all one in Christ (believers that is). There is no justification for racial discrimination.

We need to be faithful to the text of Scripture and that we will result in loving our neighbors as ourselves.

 

[Hardsheller]

John,

You made the following statement in one of your posts.

"Facts are that all whites in the US benefit from slavery and this means you too."

Could you elaborate on this?

Thanks

 

[Bro. John Willis]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
Three words: Get over it.

Dear brother;
What do you propose that I get over? Being black? Slavery? or maybe the effects of slavery? The store clerk that follows my every move when I enter the door but, ignores the white girl that is an addict and is shoplifting rather can't see her for watching me? The church that says it's Baptist but has the sign at the front door saying, "No tracks, no slacks & no blacks"? Jim Crow that made me sit in the back of the bus or drink from the horses water fountain on that 93 degree August day? Maybe, Hyles Anderson College profs teaching that blacks must accept the fact that they are under a curse? Or my father who was told in the 1930's while working on a CCC Project when presented with his earnings, "That's too much money for a "N*****" to make" and the paymaster keeps the greater portion and gives him the rest? Maybe, my grandmother's twin brother walking home from work in the 1950's, is hogtied, dragged behind a pickup truck and burned..his body found in a trash heap ten miles away? Did I fail to mention the cross and drop of blood design found on his body? Which would you like me to get over? These or the dozen of others that I know?
Thank God for the cleansing power of the Blood of Jesus. As I said in a earlier post we all have racisms that need to be brought to the cross. Thank God I brought mine..brought it and left it there.
Would you tell a Jew to forget all of the atrocities that have happened to him and his people? I believe you would! But he ain't gonna do it, and you ain't either. Because he ain't gonna let ya.
Don't tell someone to do anything you haven't or can't do. Things are a lot different when you are at the whipping post!
If you don't see whites that are racist against blacks, it's because you don't want to.
If you believe that shaking a blacks hand is such a great thing, guess what...that kind of thinking is in itself racist.
Your brother
John

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Bro. John Willis:
What do you propose that I get over?

I wasn't referring to you. I was referring in general to those like Jesse Jackson who insist on dragging this country back to the old days. People who insist on constantly playing the race card are the ones who perpetuate the problem. They need to get over it and get in the 21st century.

Which would you like me to get over? These or the dozen of others that I know?

As for the truth of these claims, I have no idea. If they happened, they were wrong. But (now I am directing this at you), get over it. Life goes on. Take Clarence Thomas as an example. He speaks of how his grandparents told him he would have to work harder and longer than the white man and that was just life. If these things happen today, then pursue the legitimate judicial redresses for them. If they happened in the past, bringing them up now will not change that. But do not ever tag me with that type of label. That is the most offensive thing you can do ... put a label on one person because of how another treats you.

Would you tell a Jew to forget all of the atrocities that have happened to him and his people? I believe you would! But he ain't gonna do it, and you ain't either. Because he ain't gonna let ya.

I would tell them to get past it. It is in the past and nothing you say or do is going to change that. At some point, people have to stop living in the past and go on with their lives.

Don't tell someone to do anything you haven't or can't do. Things are a lot different when you are at the whipping post!

We have all had to get past various things in our lives. So we do that.

If you don't see whites that are racist against blacks, it's because you don't want to.

Or maybe it's because I don't hang around those kind of people. Did you ever think of that?? Did you ever think that maybe you hang around the wrong kind of people?? I seriously do not know any racist whites, at least none that I know of.

If you believe that shaking a blacks hand is such a great thing, guess what...that kind of thinking is in itself racist.

I never said that and I think this type of statement is a foolish statement that shows your mindset as one who is unwilling to stop living in the past. I think shaking a black person's hand is normal. And when I stick my hand out to shake their hand, I do not even think about what color their hand is. I simply don't care. It appears that you are the one with the hangups here.

While I did not address my original "Get over it" to you, the more I think about it the more it is appropriate for you. You need to get over the fact that things happened in the past. Out of everything about your life that you can change, the past is not one of them. You can go on complaining about how black people were shut out of certain places, or hogtied and drug, or whatever else. But you will never change that. All you will do is limit yourself and encourage your own bitterness about things that you can do nothing about. I can assure you that there is not one racist bone in my body. There is not one racist thought in my head. The fact that you cannot accept that might show that you harbor some racism. Who knows??

In the bottom line, let the past die. Do not keep giving it life. Accept that there is a vast majority of people like myself who simply do not care what color you are.

 

[Brett Valentine]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
While I did not address my original "Get over it" to you, the more I think about it the more it is appropriate for you. You need to get over the fact that things happened in the past. Out of everything about your life that you can change, the past is not one of them. You can go on complaining about how black people were shut out of certain places, or hogtied and drug, or whatever else. But you will never change that. All you will do is limit yourself and encourage your own bitterness about things that you can do nothing about. I can assure you that there is not one racist bone in my body. There is not one racist thought in my head. The fact that you cannot accept that might show that you harbor some racism. Who knows??

In the bottom line, let the past die. Do not keep giving it life. Accept that there is a vast majority of people like myself who simply do not care what color you are.

Some interesting ovservations here, but there is a problem I don't think is clearly being seen. The American institution of slavery has left a stain on our culture that invades every aspect of it, and while one side feels that they have finally gotten past it, the other side can't make a move without seeing the remnants of it where ever they turn.

The problem is that it is also tied into a "class consciousness" and so, seems insurmountable, and leads to a certain "entrenched frustration." Our culture has taken lengths to "move past" the "slavery/race" issues (and I rejoice in the fact that colorblindness does grow), but the truth is, there is farther still to go.

Consider that Blacks STILL tend to make less money for the same jobs. I can't tell you where I heard this and read it, but it is still pervasive enough to be stated in more than one place. In the past few months, there was an ongoing story in the news on the relative lack of Blacks being admitted to certain universities in proportion to their representation in the population. In general, Blacks tend to have a lower education level NOT because of any lack in ability, but because of a lack in opportunity, resources, and because of "culture" that stems back to the days when they/we were not allowed to be taught. There are generations of people being born on welfare to parents who know no tradition of success in school. That goes for White as well as Black, so it is also a class issue, but it seems like an added on burden.

The acts of hatred that haunt so many of us and our ancestors due to our color (I include myself as well; I'm 45 and can remember the 60's) do not go away. God HAS brought me to a place where I have forgiven them, but when they come up, I must remember that I have forgiven them and do so again from time to time as necessary.

When a statement is made like "there is nothing wrong with slavery," the immediate thought that comes to mind is "which part, the "2/3 human" designation, the unlawful kidnapping, that the children of slaves are BORN slaves, or all the "fun" stuff that happened after slavery was abolished? (Namely the kkk, the whole "scientific" defense of one race being better than another, etc.?). It's pretty much an automatic thing.

If a distinction between the 2 forms of slavery is NOT made (and yes, there is one), any further discussion is pretty much immediately disqualified, and it takes real work to fight off the visceral reaction to such a comment. I know because the use of the Bible to support slavery and racism is a main point of contention between my father and myself.

A month or 2 ago, there was an arrest made of a man who worked at a school on Long Island who had illegal automatic weapons in his home, and regularly visited a grand wizard up in Walden N.Y. (my sister lives just on the other side of the Hudson River by about 15 minutes). . .

Just this past Sunday, a member of our worship team who moved to Scranton showed us a newspaper where his new business was praised, and in the same paper, on the front page, was an article on the current activities of the kkk in the same town. We all prayed for the safety of his family. . .

This 200+ year old nation has spent over 140 years throwing off the bonds of slavery, and more like a mere 50 actively trying to set things right. That's not really a long time. I don't think the issue has gone away, really, and I doubt it ever will completely, and I think we need to understand that as a condition of a still young nation in a fallen world.

I don't have a lot of Bible verses at the ready here, just experience, observation, and a little bit of research I did for a course in grad school that opened my eyes a bit more (and the fact that I am the first male in my family to even attend grad school, let alone graduate is constantly with me). Get over it? We must! But we must ALL work together to get past it, but with undersatanding, sensitivity, and patience because when we claim American citizenship, each of us assume the total of our history, the good as well as bad.

Is slavery good (. . .and I guatantee you, for a Black person, those words will most likely take some getting past. . .)? Only slavery to righteousness, slavery to Jesus Christ, our Lord.

Brett

 

[Brett Valentine]

. . .I didn't mean to kill the conversation. . .

Brett