Slidell Baptist Seminary Amends

[UZThD]

Here's the thing: I have completed graduate programs in English and in Education in two regionally accredited universities. I also have completed the work for three grad degrees in Bible/Theology in two regionally accredited schools and a fourth degree in one GAAP university. [the issue is NOT accreditation, but rigor].

It is my distinct perception that the study of the Bible and Theology at the graduate level is more complex and more demanding than is the study of many secular subjects. Therefore, the rigor and the substance expected to genuinely earn grad degrees in Biblical/Theological studies must surpass NOT subside that of secular studies.

No one should say that everyone who serves God must have graduate degrees in Bible or in Theology. BUT, BUT IF one opts to earn a grad degree in the study of the LORD of the Bible and of the GOD of Theology, then why would that one do so in a school well-known to have less substance and require less rigor than is normally expected to get that advanced degree?

That is NOT serving God! That IS serving oneself! That is changing what is required for the purpose of making it easy NOT for the purpose of handling the complexity and enormity of the vital material.

Away with these feeble facsimilies of advanced Theological education offered by phony seminaries. By what logic can we claim to be giving God our all when we look for academic programs that do not require our all?

THAT is cross bearing?

[ March 01, 2005, 10:01 AM: Message edited by: UZThD ]

 

[rustynail]

All right. It's not like I'm getting a Ph.D. in Religion from the Universal Life Church or anything like that. So my question is, what really qualifies a person to be a pastor? I mean besides what it says in 1 Tim.:3, what of educational requirements? I actually know of some successful pastors who have a 2-3 year diploma in Biblical Studies. I know others who have only a Bachelors degree. What if someone received a degree from Oxford or Cambridge? None of these institutions are accredited? What about a small Baptist Church that offers theological education to prepare the workers for the harvest?

 

[Broadus]

Rusty,

These are two different, though not unrelated, issues.

Receiving a formal education is not a prerequisite to being qualified to be a pastor. Among other things listed in 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1 is being taught in the Word. One must show oneself to be biblically competent. Such knowledge may be obtained informally (through one's own reading and being mentored by a minister) and formally (through some manner of higher education).

The second issue is this: if one chooses to be trained formally, then one should study in a credible institution. What makes an institution credible? Minimally, the instructors should have degrees which are widely acknowledged to be the evidence of rigorous training and the instruction they provide should involve rigorous study. As I said, this is minimal. The issue is not essentially accreditation. BTW, accreditation is actually a minimum standard, not the height of educational achievement.

In no way does Slidell give evidence of being a legitimate institution of higher education, if the information provided on their website represents who they really are and what they require.

Please understand, this is not in any way against you personally. You do not set the standards for Slidell. However, whatever you get from Slidell will be strictly for personal development. The diploma will be essentially without value when it comes to doing additional work at a credible institution. And if personal development is what one desires, why do it through an institution which gives bogus diplomas? Just buy tapes and read books.

If you are going to pursue higher education, then do it where you will be challenged with rigorous work. Surely God's work will not suffer because His ministers have learned to study hard and think deeply.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[Rhetorician]

Rusty Nail,

IMO, you had better listen long and hard to UZTHD & Broadus. They have much academic experience, wisdom, training, accredited degrees, non-accredited degrees, years and years of ministry experience, teaching in the church, teaching in higher ed contexts, etc., et al.

They have two credentials that are higher than any of those. First, they love our Lord Jesus and have sought to serve Him in, through, with, and by their educational and ministry experiences.

Secondly, THEY LOVE YOU! They want the best for you. And, they both want you to be a workman that needeth not to be ashamed.

Just think about what opportunities a good theological education will open for you with God's guidance and help!

sdg!

rd

 

[UZThD]

Originally posted by rustynail:
[QB] All right. It's not like I'm getting a Ph.D. in Religion from the Universal Life Church or anything like that.

====

I'm glad that you see that doing that would be wrong. It would be wrong because that degree from the Universal Life Church would not be credible. It would not be credible because that degree is not done in a school with substance which requires the rigor normally expected to earn such a degree.

BUT neither is Slidell a school of substance which requires the normal rigor expected to earn advanced degrees.

THAT is why Slidell is phony NOT "fine."

====

So my question is, what really qualifies a person to be a pastor? I mean besides what it says in 1 Tim.:3, what of educational requirements?


====
If you will look at that passage, and also its parallel in Tt 1, you will be able to make these observations:

1) The pastor is to have the respect of both those outside and inside the church. These must include people who understand academics. But such people will not respect one who claims to have degrees which were not earned in schools of substance and not earned by doing the work normally required to get such degrees.

THAT is why Slidell is phony NOT "fine."

2) The pastor is to adhere to , teach , and defend the apostolic tradition (paradosis) . The particulars of that tradition are at times difficult to determine. It is difficult because we are distanced from it by barriers of language, culture, and time. Oft the pastor may substitute in place of the apostolic tradition the tenets and interpretations of his own narrow denominational views. Then that pastor unknowingly may not any longer be taking Scripture as his norm but his creed as his norm.

One function of a pastoral education in my view is to prepare the pastor to exegete in the original languages as needed to see to what extent his views cohere with the apostolic tradition and to ,with convincing certainty, teach and defend those areas where denominational and apostolic traditions are seen to be equivalents.

====


I actually know of some successful pastors who have a 2-3 year diploma in Biblical Studies. I know others who have only a Bachelors degree.


====

It may be. God gives His graces where He will. But I wonder whether that education prepared those pastors to be and to do all that they should.

"Successful" is a relative term. One may be a successful people person and good at visitation and counseling and at bringing pleasing and helpful sermons. But is that the same as being a good exegete and theologian which IMO 1 Tim 3 and Tt 1 requires of the pastor.

Suppose the pastor were preaching on Philippians 2:6. Is he aware of the difficulties of that text and their effect on Christology? Would that pastor agree that lexical and grammatical wedges should divide "form of God" from "equal with God" because of the common usage of harpagmon (did not grasp) to indicate what is not possessed and because the articulated infinitive serves to separate isos from morphe and not make it concessive? Would that pastor agree that the emptying must be defined by the humanity assumed because of the modal participal 'labon'? Any decision made re these issues must then be found to be cohesive with our beliefs about the divine attributes in relation to the divine essence.

No, such grammaticisms and theologizing should not be given from the pulpit, but IMO they should occur in the pastor's study in preparation to preach the truth. It IS the pastor's duty to see to it that his messages are based on Scripture not on what he reads in some 98 page devotional commentary on the Pauline literature . One function of seminary training IMO should be to prepare the pastor to do such things. We are NOT inspired apostles. We must work to know what is true!I doubt that Slidell really prepares a pastor to do such.

THAT is why Slidell is phony NOT "fine."
====

What if someone received a degree from Oxford or Cambridge? None of these institutions are accredited?

====

These schools just as "my" Unizul in South Africa exist by governmental charter and are supervised with ongoing evaluation by governmental agencies, (in the case of Unizul the South African qualification Authority) and thesec schools have, therefore, the foreign equivalent of regional accreditation. That function in the USA is done by Gov approved accreditors.

On the other hand, Slidell has not the substance and the rigor to be genuinely accredited even if it desired that. Its programs and faculty far and away would not pass muster! So Slidell (as I recall) claims a false accreditation which matches the crackerjack box degrees it gives.

THAT, friend Rusty nail, is why Slidell is phony NOT "fine."

[ March 03, 2005, 09:27 AM: Message edited by: UZThD ]

 

[Broadus]

Very thoughtful and accurate post, UZThD. Thanks for the time it took for you to write it.

Bill

 

[MD]

Hello All...

I have listed some websites that have some info that you all might be interested in. The 1st deals with a man named: Keith Bell. He is running for La Marque City Council. Please read article and see where he has his higher education from.
This is the website address:
http://www.guidrynews.com/04Forum/04804Bell.htm

2nd ...
at this website: http://www.sfbc.edu/faculty.html
you will find.....
Dr. Robert M. Spooney, Professor

B.S., Florida A&M University

M.A., Logos Graduate School and Christian College

Th.D., Slidell Baptist Seminary

He is a Professor at:
South Florida Bible College and Theological Seminary. This Seminary recognized Dr. Spooney’s Th.D. from Slidell Baptist Seminary allowing him to become a Professor.

Their ACCREDITATIONS are as follows:

South Florida Bible College & Theological Seminary is listed as a Certified Vocational Rehabilitation Vendor (that is, approved to provide educational and training services) under the authority of the Florida Department of Education. The Florida Department of Education's Division of Vocational Rehabilitation is a federal and state program that assists individuals with disabilities who require vocational rehabilitation services to prepare for, secure, regain or retain employment. The Division of Vocational Rehabilitation is committed to working with certified vendors (such as South Florida Bible College & Theological Seminary) to provide quality vocational rehabilitation services to Floridians with disabilities. Call 1-800-451-4327 to reach the Division of Vocational Rehabilitation.

South Florida Bible College holds applicant status with the Commission of Accreditation of the Association for Biblical Higher Education (COA-ABHE), 5575 South Semoran Blvd., Orlando, Florida 32822, (407) 207-0808. Applicant status is a pre-membership status granted to those colleges that meet the COA-ABHE "Conditions of Eligibility" and that possess such qualities as may provide a basis for achieving candidate status within four years.

American Federation of Colleges and Seminaries (AFCS) - South Florida Bible College & Theological Seminary is a member in good standing with the AFCS.

The State of Florida's Commission for Independent Education (CIE) - In 1998, South Florida Bible College & Theological Seminary was authorized by The Florida State Board of Independent Colleges and Universities to grant degrees and continues as a registered degree granting institution with The Florida Commission for Independent Education.

Association of Christian Schools International (ACSI) - South Florida Bible College & Theological Seminary is on the list of Recognized Collegiate Programs with the ACSI. ACSI authorizes SFBC&TS to offer CEU credits.

Form I-20 A/B, Certificate of Eligibility for Nonimmigrant - Foreign students with visas are permitted to attend South Florida Bible College & Theological Seminary provided all the Department of Homeland Security's Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS) requirements have been met.

Veterans - Various programs at South Florida Bible College & Theological Seminary have been approved by The Bureau of State Approving for Veterans Training for benefits.

American Psychological Association (APA) - South Florida Bible College & Theological Seminary is approved by the APA to offer Continuing Education (CE) credits for psychologists. South Florida Bible College & Theological Seminary maintains responsibility for the program.

3rd …
Even a Non-Baptist (accredited) University has one of its leaders that holds a Th.D. from Slidell…
See this at: http://www.fairfield.edu/x5801.html

4th …
Even other Theological Seminaries are recognizing them…
Such as: Trinity Baptist College (fully accredited)
See this website to see their Alumni Newsletter. Pay attention to the Award Section near bottom…
http://www.tbc.edu/cms/fileupload/upload/fall04specialist_web.pdf

5th …
Read a bio of Pastor Davis at: http://www.tabmbc.org/courses.asp

He holds the distinguished position of Vice President of the National Baptist Convention of America Inc. I am sure his D.D. from Slidell helped him in this.

6th …
Here’s another GREAT example:
Mr. Chester Johnson, 1st Vice President of the Garland Branch NAACP

cbjohnson@gisd.net

Mr. Chester Johnson holds the position of 1st Vice President of the Garland Branch NAACP, Chairs the Legal Redress Committee and also Chairs the Financial Committee. Chester was a major player in the desegregation of the Garland Independent School District (GISD). He's a long time champion in promoting justice, equality, and fair treatment of citizens, minority and students in Garland communities. Chester has served as President of the Citywide Garland Area Brotherhood, served on the GISD Multi-Ethnic Committee, served on the City of Garland's Planning Commission, Leadership Garland, Garland's Citizen Police Academy, Garland Community Development Advisory Committee, and has served as Chairman of the East Garland Concerned Citizens as well as Vice-President of George Washington Carver Alumni Programs and Services. Has created and produced cable public access programs, has been a Target Area Representative of the Dallas County Action Committee, a Democratic Precinct Chairman, and Chairman of the campaign to elect Mrs. Annie Dickson to the City Council of Garland.

Chester was also an athlete having served as player/coach of the Garland Texans and Garland Cobras semi-pro football teams.

Chester graduated from Southern Bible Institute and earned a degree in Bible Studies, and attended Slidell Baptist Seminary as well, earning a Bachelor of Theology Degree. Chester also attended Richland Junior College and Amber University with and earned credit hours in Business Management.

Chester is a member of the Sweet Home Missionary Baptist Church, pastored by Rev. D. L. Wilson. Mr. Johnson is married to Gertha Lady Johnson. They have one son, Christopher, and one daughter, Angerlisha. In addition, Chester and Lady are entrepreneurs as they are owners of "Weddings By Lady" located in downtown Garland.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

There you go folks…

That is just a few of things that I have found from a 20 minute search on the net. Not too hard to find info either. So, before you attack what you haven't researched thoroughly or understand fully... do the leg-work first. Then, if it's still coming up short and invalid, respectfully admonish with courteous responses.

I hope this may help. I would look for further info (which I am sure I could easily find) but I am out of time for now. Thanks for reading!

Blessings!
MD

 

[Broadus]

MD,

Thanks for your research, but it does not prove what you think.

Most instances involve someone in the practicing ministry, not in the academy. I was particularly interested in the case of a "leader" at Fairfield University, which you described as the non-Baptist accredited university. Note this description found on the page to which you referred: "Rev. Doctor Robert A. Smith Jr., pastor and co-founder of the Church of the Savior in Bronx, N.Y., and a 1974 graduate of Fairfield University. He earned his doctorate of theology from Slidell Baptist Seminary in Slidell, La., and a master's of divinity degree from Andover Newton Theological Seminary in Newton Centre, Mass. He recently retired as a substance abuse specialist at Beth Israel Medical Center in New York."

He is not a leader at Fairfield, but an alumnus. His MDiv from Andover Newton, if it had a counseling component, would have qualified him for his position at Beth Israel Medical Center.

You mention a "Dr." Spooney who teaches at South Florida Bible College. None of their profs, except one who is listed as having an MD from the University of Missouri Medical School, has an accredited doctorate. The information you listed supportin South Florida's claim to be accredited reveals that it is indeed not accredited. None of the "accrediting agencies" or entities are recognized by the USDE or CHEA as legitimate accrediting agencies.

I have no idea what kind of work these Slidell grads did for their degrees, but the requirements listed on Slidell's website create a lot of questions.

When you do research, make sure you understand the issues, such as accreditation. I don't have time to go into each case you listed, but they prove rather than disprove what I and others criticizing Slidell have written.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[UZThD]

Ditto what Bill said.

MD: How does your data really evidence the academic utility and rigor of a Slidell grad degree? Just for some examples:

1) How many (with names) Slidell grads have on the virtue of that qualification been prepared to enter and have actually completed genuinely accredited docs in Bible or Theology?

2) What grads with Slidell docs teach Bible/Theology on the strength of that qualification at accredited schools?

3) How does ANY of your evidence demonstrate that the Slidell doc in Bible/Theology program has any where near the substance of what it should have as determined by the norms of any gov approved accreditors and/or the standards of any accredited schools?

4) How do Slidell profs or grads ( BY their Slidell learning now) contribute to scholarly research in OT, NT, or Systematic or Historical Theology in academic venues as journal or other published works?

5) Where are the Slidell doctoral dissertations viewable for examination by academics qualified to evaluate such so that we may see if rigor is required or not?

THOSE are the sorts questions issues which you should address and your modest assortment of incidentals do not match, much less answer, those issues.

 

[MD]

Bill,

Question: You commented on this...
"or entities are recognized by the USDE or CHEA as legitimate accrediting agencies"

Slidell is accredited by: American Accrediting Association of Theological Institutions, Inc.

My question is... isn't it true that no Seminary or Theological school is required to hold any accreditation from a state or gov't agency? And therefore it's better to be accredited by an entity that accredits religious schools than none at all isn't it?

There is nothing in common with secular and theological education. It doesn't need accreditation from the world in my humble opinion especially if they teach the Bible from a conservative, baptistic standard, are ethical in their teachings, and thorough in their subjects. Be that as it may.... I am sure that the academian elites will not agree here and that's completely OK. All I know is that the Lord has blessed many, many graduates with churches and other ministries and it seems that there are a lot of churches that have NO problems with the degrees from SBS. And THAT, my brothers, should really be what is important.

Blessings!
MD

 

[MD]

In addition...

Let me quote from Slidell's own website:
"Slidell Baptist Seminary was organized in 1994 through the leadership of Dr. Paul O. Dabdoub. After much prayer, Dr. Dabdoub, who has been in the ministry for thirty-one years, felt that there was a need for a Bible seminary that was solid, fundamental, Bible believing, conservative and yet affordable that any child of God and those who have been called of God into the ministry could have their dreams come true to be educated, thus being equipped for Christian service."

This would bring me to the conclusion that:

1) SBS in no way claims that its purpose is to produce Greek/Hebrew scholars, literary professionals, theologians of the highest order, authors, or 'journalists'/'writers' who are able to navigate the contradictory waters of Kate Turabian.

2) Universities and Seminaries of higher learning that have produced theologians, scholars and professional academics are certainly desirable and necessary. However, it has been my experience that the courses of study for such degrees as the MDiv., offered by our Southern Baptist Seminaries, are willfully inadequate when it comes to producing pastors that are able to practically deal with real-life situations in the local church. I am personally familiar with the course of study offered by SWBTS, for instance, and it is heavy on theology and language and very, very light in the area of counseling, social interaction and the practical problems that are faced by the pastor in the pulpit. It is little wonder to me, because of this lack of training, our churches are being divided and many pastors are falling prey to scandals and other circumstances that they don't even see coming.

3) I have taken courses at SWBTS. I am a graduate of Slidell with a Th.M. I also have a pastor friend that has taken courses at Slidell and has a degree from a Bible College, and has taken multiple courses at SWBTS. It has been his & my practical experience that SBS is geared very heavily toward the areas of practical theology and practical pastoral disciplines.

4) Many are being very critical of SBS because they are not producing academics. Once again, Slidell never claims this as their purpose... they, instead, are producing pastors. The problem may be in the conferring of degrees. Maybe instead of trying to destroy SBS which is attempting to produce educated pastors, a seperate system of degrees should be established (such as Master/Doctor of Pastoral Ministries). That way when a church reviews a resume, they can decide if they want their pulpit filled by a professional academic or an educated pastor.

The bottom line of all of this is that you guys are not comparing apples to apples, in my opinion. And if you are as intelligent as you appear to be, you ought to easily be able to tell the difference.

Criticisms are always easier to formulate than resolutions.

Thanks again for your time... I covet your responses.

MD

 

[Broadus]

Hi MD,

The American Accrediting Association of Theological Institutions? Do they even have a website? I found this in a recent article, "Battle Looms over Right to Grant Degrees," that can be read at http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/10832213.htm?1c :

"Many schools said they were accredited, but in some cases confirming that status was the stuff of spy stories. The Institute for Teaching God's Word Seminary in Rockdale, for instance, claimed accreditation from the American Accrediting Association of Theological Institutions of Rocky Mount, N.C. An answering machine in North Carolina tells callers to record the name of the school they're asking about. 'If you do not hear from us,' the recorded message says, 'you may assume they are accredited.'"

In the same article, this is provided about Slidell: "But in Louisiana, officials say the religious exemption hasn't resulted in widespread fraud. While the state once allowed any tax-exempt organization to grant degrees, religious institutions are now required to issue only theological degrees. That has led to the creation of schools such as Slidell Baptist Seminary, where a student can go from high school graduate to doctorate in four years. The minimum cost is about $2,500." High school to doctorate in four years for $2500? Please.

Your state, Texas, does require religious institutions to hold approved accreditation, but the issue is in the courts. For the sake of argument, religious schools are generally exempt from such accreditation. Why, then, would an institution use a bogus accrediting agency to give credibility to its degrees when it doesn't have to be accredited?

There is a lot in common between secular and theological education. The courses and emphases are different, but the rigor and challenge should be similar. And, too, if the world examines the credentials of a minister and finds that his education came from what is little more than a degree mill, the minister loses credibility and a hearing.

You say that the Lord has blessed many grads of SBS. How do you know that the Lord has blessed them? Because they have a large attendance, big budgets, great worship centers, a television ministry, many baptisms. That does not necessarily mean that the blessing is of the Lord. They may have the personal charisma to pull it off. After all, Benny Hinn draws a large following and has a huge organization, but I suspect no one writing on this thread is going to say that the Lord is blessing his ministry!

As we've noted in other threads, and maybe in this one, the issue is not necessarily about accreditation. The question is rigor and one's witness before the world. Why would a minister receive a degree from Slidell when he could study through distance education with several legitimate seminaries? Answer: it's an easy, cheap way to get credentialed. If credentials are not important, then do self-studies.

You mention that "there are a lot of churches that have NO problems with the degrees from SBS. And THAT, my brothers, should really be what is important." I disagree. The fact that a lot of churches have no problem with Slidell is a lot of our problem. We're living in an age when Baptists, the same can be said of other denominations, are basically biblically illiterate. And we have more "Doctors" running around than ever before in the history of the church. Fellows get legitimate sounding degrees from bogus institutions that the person in the pew knows nothing about. Everybody continues in their blessed ignorance and remain content. I'm sorry, but, IMO, that is a huge problem.

Many folks sacrifice income and homes to do rigorous study at legitimate institutions. Their churches benefit from that. As a pastor, I would never call a staff member who had a degree from a place such as Slidell. Passing off a degree from Slidell is simply unethical. One is attempting to appear to have done what one has simply not done. There are too many other places to study.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[Broadus]

MD,

It looks as though we're just going to have to agree to disagree. You have a degree from Slidell and are pleased with your experience. I contend that you could have done a lot better, and I'm sure that you are capable of doing so.

IMO, Greek and Hebrew are vitally important for expositors. Theology and church history are essential. What is a pastor called to be? Our Baptist forefathers would have said, "a physician of souls." I think our pastors are trained too much in the practical and too little in the academic. Will taking a course in leadership make one a leader? BTW, I have been in the ministry for 27 years and have a DMin (Luther Rice) and a PhD (SBTS). My seminary education has been espcially beneficial to my churches.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[UZThD]

Originally posted by MD:
[QB]
Criticisms are always easier to formulate than resolutions.


academic elitists.

===


What is an "academic elitist" (MD's term somewhere above) ? I address this question mostly in connection to the (supposed) "advanced" degrees which Slidell offers in Biblical/Theological studies.


CRITICISM #1: GIVE OF YOUR BEST TO THE MASTER

1) An "academic elitist" is one who believes that he/she should give of his/her "best to the Master." Our Lord did not take easy, short cuts in His obedience, did He? Our Lord for us faced and endured the cross. We are to be crucified with Him. Right?

Therefore, the "academic elitist" wishes to do whatever he/she can to put to death laziness and slothfulness when it comes to obeying a perceived call to pursue higher studies of ,and for, his/her Lord!

Rigor is seen , you see, as not an option! Rigor is seen as the response of obedience to God ; it is viewed as a serving of Christ ; it is not as something which either may or may not rightfully attend higher Christian education.

There is no choice in the matter in the mind of the academic elitist. He/she serves God and obeys God with the mind too as best as is possible!

The seminary which does not set high the entry bar into advanced studies (because not all can do doc work) , and does not employ professors who themselves are qualified by experiencing genuine advanced, rigorous work and doctoral level effort in the areas they teach, and which does not demand from graduate students real graduate level work, is, IMO, NOT requiring those students to "give of their best" to the Master!

It is instead letting the students "off easy" and letting them avoid academically what they should face.

RESOLUTION # 1: THEREFORE, LET SLIDELL REQUIRE THE DOCTORAL STUDENT TO CARRY THE CROSS OF REAL DOCTORAL RIGOR.




CRITICISM #2: "SOME THINGS HARD TO UNDERSTAND" (2 Pet 3)

An "academic elitist" is one who recognizes that the material of his/her study, that is, the written Word of God and belief systems which ,to greater or lesser extents, are based on that Word, is extremely complex.

It is seen that the interpretation of many Biblical texts are difficult and require various skills and attitudes to best elicit the more likely correct meaning. It is perceived that one needs to be open to honestly examine views which do not precisely match his/her own.

By some, instead of exegesis in the original languages, an easy hermeneutic of "this is the way it is to be understood because that's the narrow opinion of our denomination or our seminary or your professor" is adopted.

I still recall an Independent Baptist pastor insisting to me that John 4:6 as per , he said, the KJV, meant that Jesus batized His disciples . This despite the Greek making that interpretation of that verse impossible! He did not wish to see the Greek as his KJV was "all he needed."

You might be surprised that on another discussion board a **PhD**, in Bible, student at an Independent Baptist University which has much, much more substance than does Slidell BTW, even yet insisted that Strong's Concordance was all the lexical tool he needed to do his dissertation! In fact, THAT was the recommended lexicon at this university! That is ludicrous!

The doctoral student in Bible who is incapable of using exegetical grammars and lexicons and commentaries and textual studies based on the languages is not a genuine doctoral student in Bible at all!

In fact, an academic elitist will only be fully satisfied when doing his/her own research and not just depending on such tools- as helpful as they may be.

So, the academic elistist might see it needful to look at the seven Septuagintal occasions of monogenes in that Greek translation (of the Hebrew yahid) to see if Dahms is right that this usage means that the adjective used for Christ by John should be rendered 'only begotten' or not. REAL NASTY- aren't we elitists?

The academic elitist will investigate on his own to see if the Granville Sharp Rule really applies in Eph 4:11 where the substantives are plural by researching on his own such constructions in the NT. REAL NASTY - aren't we elitists?

Likewise, the academic elitist will use theological primary sources ,not secondary, to understand the teaching of and rationale behind belief systems which do not precisely coincide with what his/her denominiation teaches.

You might be surprised that on that same board referenced above it was claimed that Barth denied the virgin birth and that Calvin denied the Trinity.

That person had never, I suppose, read relevant passages in a commentary by Calvin or the Institutes or Barth's Dogmatics. He thought that because a professor or some secondary source said so it just MUST BE!

Now the academic elitist relies on advanced seminary training to provide these very skills of exegesis and these necessary investigative, scholarly attitudes.

But if the seminary is content to produce instead of real scholars those who lack exegetical and investigative attitudes and abilities , then IMO, that seminary has grossly failed in its responsibility to prepare credible doctoral students ; it has failed to require the student to interact with the complexities of Scripture interpretation and belief systems.

Of course to one ( NOT saying MD is one) who thinks every truth is to found in the brief history, narrow confines, and adopted English translation of his own denomination such requirements for rigor may be viewed as demonic. That is a handy way to avoid what is disagreeable to us: its of the devil and secularism.


RESOLUTION # 2: THEREFORE, LET SLIDELL EQUIP THE DOCTORAL STUDENT TO INTERACT WITH SCRIPTURE AND THEOLOGY AT A TRUE DOCTORAL LEVEL.


CRITICISM #3: HONESTY IS THE BEST POLICY

I really would like an explanation of how it is perceived that Slidell is being honest by awarding doc degrees in Bible/Theology for insubstantial prereqs and expectations.

How can it be fair for the academic elitist to wonder about what is honest in this "sacred" context?

Well, because, there are ,you know, lots of schools which offer docs in Bible or Theology too , just like Slidell offers, which schools demand just tons and tons of more rigor and substance than does Slidell in terms of entry reqs and curricular reqs and outcomes of learning!

Yet, Slidell goes right on giving the same degrees for it much deficient programs as do these other schools. Do you get it? THAT is NOT honest IMO!

Other doc students in other schools give up much because they think the primary purpose of higher Christian is not the learning not in getting to be called "Dr." .

EG, I have a ThM too--(just like Slidell offers-- or is it?) The entry requirements for my ThM included (1) completing an accredited (real accreditation now) MDiv program of 96 grad sem units with ( as I recall a 3.5 gpa) , and , (2) having a working knowledge of Hebrew and Greek .

Each on my committee members had ThDs from Dallas. Then I began more coursework , a year of it, which included exegesis. I'm a slow worker. My thesis, now sold through TREN, took another full year for me to do and was an exegetical study of the major Pauline baptismal passages.

You might want to compare the prereqs and curricula of accredited schools with that of Slidell. Oh, I know, accreditation is not your thing.

But this should be your thing to ask: Do those accredited schools require a great deal more of their students to aquire doc degrees than does Slidell? If they do, then why is that?

Are the mean, old US GOV approved accreditors really messing up seminary studies because they require that those schools rigorous? Rigor is unchristian?

BUT accreditation is NOT the precise issue as there are a (very) few unaccredited schools which are the equal of accredited ones! These schools do send their grads into accredited doc programs! But Slidell does not. Doesn't that tell you anything about Slidell's lack of rigor?


These schools have grads teaching at RA schools. But Slidell does not. Doesn't that tell you anything about Slidell's lack of rigor?

RESOLUTION #3: OK SLIDELL, BE HONEST. EITHER GIVE UP THE DOC PROGRAMS OR BEEF THEM UP AND HIRE COMPETENT FACULTY ACCORDINGLY!

There. I've given BOTH criticisms and resolutions!

[ March 08, 2005, 11:36 AM: Message edited by: UZThD ]

 

[UZThD]

Originally posted by UZThD:


Other doc students in other schools give up much because they think the primary purpose of higher Christian is not the learning not in getting to be called "Dr." .

===


I meant to say that many esteem the learning much more than the degree. But, if the learning does not really occur in a doc program , then, I assume what is being esteemed is the title "Dr." That is a very sad inditement.

 

[PatsFan]

Originally posted by MD:
Universities and Seminaries of higher learning that have produced theologians, scholars and professional academics are certainly desirable and necessary. However, it has been my experience that the courses of study for such degrees as the MDiv., offered by our Southern Baptist Seminaries, are willfully inadequate when it comes to producing pastors that are able to practically deal with real-life situations in the local church. MD

From my experience studying at three RA seminaries,and examining the catalogs from dozens of schools, I have been impressed with how many RA seminaries really do a good job trying to educate both ministers and scholars offering distinct programs to do so. The MDiv,MACE and DMin are generally the more practical degrees. There are other masters degrees,ThDs and PhDs offered at many RA seminaries to educate the scholars who plan to teach college or seminary. I looked at the SBS website and I've examined catalogs from other similar unaccredited seminaries. The programs offered are really inadequate academically. SBS may offer some valuable instruction, but it's more like continuing education. It would be much more honest to offer diplomas or certificates. There are some very good unaccredited seminaries, but SBS does not appear to be one of them.

 

[Nord]

MD,

There are recognized Christian accrediting agencies (have US DoE/CHEA recongition). The accrediting agencies do allow distance education.

There is no reason for a Christian school to get unrecognized accreditation except that they could not meet the standards of recognized agencies and want to look like they are accredited. One has to question whether that attitude is even Christian.

As Bill mentioned, we owe God our best and there are plenty of affordable, accredited options that will not produce substandard graduates who bring the cause of Christ into disrepute (not saying anything about any school in particular).

I have met folks running around with Doctorates from Universal Life Church and other schools/issuing institutions that are substandard. Not a pretty site to meet ignorant and uneducated folks who have a sign on them saying they represent Christ and are claiming to have higher education. **Please note that I am in no way referring to you.

You could earn an accredited degree. Let us know what was the last accredited degree you earned and we can make suggestions that are affordable and accredited, that will test you and represent the cause of Christ well.

Nord

 

[rustynail]

Broadus had mentioned in one of his posts "Many folks sacrifice income and homes to do rigorous study at legitimate institutions." So my reply is why would someone have to sacrifice their incomes and homes to study the Word of God? I have seen some high quality institutions that are tuition free, or of low tuition, because these instituitions recognize the fact that being a minister or a servant for the Lord does not pay well financially, but is the most rewarding job because of the rewards that the saved will receive when they get to heaven. Many of these institutions believe in the principle, "Freely ye have received, freely give." For example, Family Radio School of the Bible in Oakland, CA offers a "Free" 2 year associate degree in religious studies. In fact, the courses are quite challenging. They even offer Greek and Hebrew language courses, even though they are intoductory. Ryan Hicks Ministries in Texas also offers a free associate degree course through their Faith in God Bible College. In this, the student receives the study guide for each of the 66 lessons, and is required to look each scripture up in the study guide, and answer the questions. Although this program is not as rigorous as Family Radio, it is free. At one time, Internet Bible College offered free courses, they still do, but if you want the credits and certificates, they charge for the credit programs.
Currently at my home church in Minnesota, we have a 3 year Bible Institute, where we have two ninety minute classes every Tuesday night. Each quarter is for 10 weeks. We don't take any exams, we just listen to the instructors, sometimes we have a text book, but after completion of the entire 3 years, we graduate with a Diploma in Biblical Studies. The tuition is based on a free will offering. If we have money, we put it in the basket, if we don't have it we don't put it in. However, graduates of this program are instructors at your Bible Colleges, and pastors at your churches. Our institute is not accredited in any way and is not a major expense. Because you have sacrificed income and homes to "think" that you have received a quality education, that to me is unethical. Remember one thing. Jesus never went to seminary, and his disciples learned their ministry skills and theological education through on the job, hands on training by the Master himself.
Blessings,
Rusty

BTW Slidell is a real school with a real graduation ceremony every June. When I had before mentioned of the low quality tapes, they were less than 1 percent of the total tapes that I had received, and Bro. Dabdoub had sent a replacement tape out to me at no additional cost to me.

 

[PatsFan]

Rusty nail, you seem to have come full-circle from describing SBS as a degree mill in an earlier posting to seeing the school in much more positive terms. What happened? I would challenge you to compare SBS with other accredited Christian colleges and seminaries before you come to any conclusions about Slidell Baptist Seminary. One doesn't have to go into a lot of debt to get a quality, accredited education. You might be surprised at what you can afford.
Tom

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by rustynail:
Broadus had mentioned in one of his posts "Many folks sacrifice income and homes to do rigorous study at legitimate institutions." So my reply is why would someone have to sacrifice their incomes and homes to study the Word of God?

Hwo does that compare to the commands Jesus gave to give Him our life and follow Him.

Look at Matthew who gave up a very prestigious job with great job security and pay to follow Jesus with a guarantee of trouble.