Slidell Baptist Seminary Amends

[Broadus]

Originally posted by rustynail:
Broadus had mentioned in one of his posts "Many folks sacrifice income and homes to do rigorous study at legitimate institutions." So my reply is why would someone have to sacrifice their incomes and homes to study the Word of God? I have seen some high quality institutions that are tuition free, or of low tuition, because these instituitions recognize the fact that being a minister or a servant for the Lord does not pay well financially, but is the most rewarding job because of the rewards that the saved will receive when they get to heaven. Many of these institutions believe in the principle, "Freely ye have received, freely give." For example, Family Radio School of the Bible in Oakland, CA offers a "Free" 2 year associate degree in religious studies. In fact, the courses are quite challenging. They even offer Greek and Hebrew language courses, even though they are intoductory. Ryan Hicks Ministries in Texas also offers a free associate degree course through their Faith in God Bible College. In this, the student receives the study guide for each of the 66 lessons, and is required to look each scripture up in the study guide, and answer the questions. Although this program is not as rigorous as Family Radio, it is free. At one time, Internet Bible College offered free courses, they still do, but if you want the credits and certificates, they charge for the credit programs.
Currently at my home church in Minnesota, we have a 3 year Bible Institute, where we have two ninety minute classes every Tuesday night. Each quarter is for 10 weeks. We don't take any exams, we just listen to the instructors, sometimes we have a text book, but after completion of the entire 3 years, we graduate with a Diploma in Biblical Studies. The tuition is based on a free will offering. If we have money, we put it in the basket, if we don't have it we don't put it in. However, graduates of this program are instructors at your Bible Colleges, and pastors at your churches. Our institute is not accredited in any way and is not a major expense. Because you have sacrificed income and homes to "think" that you have received a quality education, that to me is unethical. Remember one thing. Jesus never went to seminary, and his disciples learned their ministry skills and theological education through on the job, hands on training by the Master himself.
Blessings,
Rusty

BTW Slidell is a real school with a real graduation ceremony every June. When I had before mentioned of the low quality tapes, they were less than 1 percent of the total tapes that I had received, and Bro. Dabdoub had sent a replacement tape out to me at no additional cost to me.

None of the examples you mention require rigorous study. They are probably helpful for believers who are not in vocational ministry, but they are insufficient for ministers.

One of the reasons a rigorous education usually costs money is that professors have to be paid. And they usually make much less than their secular higher education counterparts.

Some schools, Moody comes to mind, are tuition free, but only because they have built up large endowments over the years and receive other contributions. Students still, though, pay for room and board.

It really comes down to what someone wants. Those who believe that the Christian ministry should be approached with less rigor and less sacrifice than the secular world accepts will continue to justify substandard education. It's less filling but tastes good!

Those who believe the Christian ministry requires the best they have and are willing to make any sacrifice to be trained in order effectively to lead God's church and to answer the world's challenges will pursue training which requires such.

Blessings,
Bill

Remember one thing. Jesus never went to seminary, and his disciples learned their ministry skills and theological education through on the job, hands on training by the Master himself.

Please tell me that you're just kidding and are not trying to make a real argument against ministerial training.

 

[UZThD]

Jesus didn't go to seminary. But he is God. Neither did His disciples. But they were inspired. So how is that an argument against ministers needing the best education they can get?

 

[PatsFan]

Originally posted by Broadus:
Some schools, Moody comes to mind, are tuition free, but only because they have built up large endowments over the years and receive other contributions. Students still, though, pay for room and board.[ [/QB]

I think Moody is a really good choice if finances are a problem. They have an outstanding faculty. I just looked at their website. It costs under $5,000 a year for undergraduates, for a single person at Moody- -including all fees, room and board and books. That's amazing.

 

[Broadus]

Originally posted by UZThD:
Jesus didn't go to seminary. But he is God. Neither did His disciples. But they were inspired. So how is that an argument against ministers needing the best education they can get?

That's why I was hoping Rusty was kidding! Jesus' disciples went to the best seminary ever.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[rustynail]

Actually my thoughts were the same as what UZThD had posted. Jesus is God so he didn't need seminary, being that God knows everything,

and Jesus used ordinary folks to join him in his ministry, and trained with the best seminary in the world, "The Seminary of Jesus Christ."
Rusty

 

[poodle78]

Originally posted by gb93433:
Look at Matthew who gave up a very prestigious job with great job security and pay to follow Jesus with a guarantee of trouble.

Forgive me if I missed something, but when did publican become a prestigious job?

 

[UZThD]

Originally posted by rustynail:
Actually my thoughts were the same as what UZThD had posted. Jesus is God so he didn't need seminary, being that God knows everything,

and Jesus used ordinary folks to join him in his ministry, and trained with the best seminary in the world, "The Seminary of Jesus Christ."
Rusty

===

Yes, but Slidell is not Jesus Christ!

I qualify my comments to concern only training in Biblical/Theological subjects, not in ministry. I am not a minister, so will let others address those concerns.

But Rusty, here's the thing: seminarians are NOT inspired in these subjects. The apostles were! THAT's the diff. Why make Slidell training paramont to Holy Spirit inspiration?

That is why it requires considerable substance in terms of a qualified faculty and considerable rigor which that faculty demands of students to learn well Biblical/Theological subjects at a grad level. WE are NOT inspired. SO, we must work to learn. That's Broadus' point!

Let's cut down to the bottom line:

If anyone thinks that a Slidell masters in Biblical/Theological subjects has the substance and rigor needed for such an advanced degree in those areas, then get a Slidell grad of Bible/Theology on this thread to evidence that the Slidell learning really is rigorous and really enables one to interact with the complex issues related to Biblical/Theological studies in a manner expected of a grad of an accredited program.

I've been through the work for three accredited (real accreditation now, not phony accreditation) master's degrees from two schools in Bible/Theology. I know what a grad should be able to do. So, I'd like to question that Slidell grad!

IF Slidell is rigorous, then name but two Slidell master's grads who have on the basis of the Slidell degree entered and completed accredited docs. Other UA seminaries have students successful in RA doc programs!

Why doesn't Slidell? Because it lacks substance and rigor.

What is Slidell's academic virtue? Everyone can be a doc. How sad! It's academic substance is in the paper diploma!

 

[Nord]

Originally posted by rustynail:
Remember one thing. Jesus never went to seminary, and his disciples learned their ministry skills and theological education through on the job, hands on training by the Master himself.
Blessings,
Rusty

Somehow I don't think Jesus needed seminary due to His being a subject matter expert. Second, teaching pupils in the manner He did was quite acceptable in that day. He didn't whip out a doctorate for each of the 12 on a piece of papyrus either.

I must admit that I have somewhat of a bias these days for seminary/graduate education for clergy simply because once God calls you to the ordained ministry I believe you owe Him the best and should put in the sweat and dedication to earn an accredited degree (especially since they are so affordable and convenient these days). Christ deserves our best effort and representation of Him. The Holy Spirit will help you persevere to achieve this.

However, having said that, I have much more respect for a Chuck Smith and some of the students he has mentored than those who go get diploma mill degrees. Chuck Smith is a very learned man even without a formal theological education. Although I do not agree with everything he espouses, he obvioulsy has the call of God on his life and ministry. The reality is that when someone gets a degree from a diploma mill and then says, what's the difference I just wanted to learn, etc...that is nonsense. It is simply an easy way to a "degree" and more often than not the unearned title of "doctor".

As always, let me make the discalimer that I am not saying anything about Rusty or Slidell of which I have no personal knowledge.

Nord

 

[Broadus]

Nord,
Well put.
Bill

 

[Rhetorician]

UZTHD,

Was it you or Dr. Bob who is not an ordained minister? I would like to talk to whichever one of you on another thread about that some time.

sdg!

rd

 

[UZThD]

I am not an ordained minister.

 

[Charles E Smith]

My sister is looking into getting her bachelors from them. Shes one credit short of an associates degree from HAC. I've looked into too but am too concerned that the degree wouldn't be reconized in the circles I run in. (Sword of the Lord/Hyles) I would rather get a degree via distance ed then through going to an on campus school but want to make sure I'm not throwing my money away.

 

[UZThD]

Originally posted by Charles E Smith:
My sister is looking into getting her bachelors from them. Shes one credit short of an associates degree from HAC. I've looked into too but am too concerned that the degree wouldn't be reconized in the circles I run in. (Sword of the Lord/Hyles) I would rather get a degree via distance ed then through going to an on campus school but want to make sure I'm not throwing my money away.

==


I would not care to argue the position that Slidell has no worth. But doing something that has "little" worth is not doing , in most cases, one's best for God. Why should we in other areas do our best, but in academics do our least?

There are substantial accredited distance learning programs both from US and foreign schools. Some of these are quite inexpensive. I've before mentioned that my UNIZUL doc program cost around $2500.

A seminary degree is an academic qualification. It suggests that the holder of that degree has completed a course of study the effects of which fit into the perimeters of what normally is expected of attaining that degree. Otherwise it would be misrepresentation, wouldn't it?

IMO the shame of the Church today is the sham of so many putting "DOCTOR" before their names when , in fact, the program of study they finished to "earn" that title no where near approximates what normally is expected. How CAN that bring honor to God? Is our Lord a God of pretense?

How curious it is that we require other professions to toe the academic line. We expect our physician or lawyer or psychologist or policeman or even our child's third grade teacher to have completed the normal program of study which is expected to qualify him / her to do his /her job.

Why then should we think it right that God's minister, who has so very much in subject matter to master relating to Scripture and has so much responsibility for the care of souls , should graduate from schools which lack academic credibility?

Therefore...

*the entry requirements,

* the faculty's competence,

*the program's duration,

*the rigor of the program's content,

*the learning outcomes,

*and the utility of that learning [in terms of a transfer of credit or degrees and other academic and professional usefulness ]

... should approximate the normal effects of like degrees from credible institutions IF Slidell is itself to be deemed credible.

BUT if it is not credible in these categories, then IMO completing a degree from Slidell is not doing one's best for God.

IF it is credible, then one may on this thread supply evidence of Slidell's credibility by addressing it in relation to the six points above.

There are MANY credible distance learning programs! Why choose one that is not?

 

[El_Guero]

Where can we get a link on the UNIZUL doc program?

 

[UZThD]

Go to the UNIZUL website. Recently the Faculty of Theology and Religion Studies was incorporated into Humanities.

UNIZUL is one of about 10 South African public universities all of which are approved and evaluated by the South African Qualifications Authority and which are therefore the equivalent of regional USA accreditation. UZ has a very nice campus and residential student population of about 6,000 and offers advanced degrees in several secular areas as well.

UZ offers the D.Th (ThD) in both Systematic Theology and in Practical Theology as well as the D.Phil in Biblical Studies. No visit to SA is usually required.

Standard prereq are (1) an accredited masters, which I think could be an MA ( I have also the ThM) and , (2) the prior completion of a research thesis (they call master's theses dissertations and doc dissertations theses). A prior research product is an essential as the UZ staff will not teach the doc student how to research. He/she is expected to know.

It can happen that the faculty senate will require a student to do some coursework , but generally trhe doc is earned by writing a dissertation European style.

The steps I took were:

1) Contacting the Dean of that faculty.

2) Evidencing that my master's degrees were accredited

3) Evidencing that I had written an acceptable master's thesis.

4) Submitting a research proposal on a provided form.

5) Being assigned a promoter who is satisfied that the topic is worthy and doable by the student.

6) Writing chapters which are evaluated by the promoter.

7) Submitting copies of the completed dissertation which are evaluated by Profs from three different public SA universities and deemed by these experts in their field to be written at genuine doc level.

8) Making corrections as required by that committee and resubmitting.

I was allowed to have a fourth , informal reader , a local prof of NT. His PhD is from Dallas , and he is published in the area of my topic. I wanted him informally to evaluate my dissertation as it concerns Christology as particularly taught by North American Evangelicals.

The entire program cost me around $2500 and took about three years of full time research and writing.

 

[UZThD]

no ARTS not humanities!

 

[El_Guero]

no ARTS not humanities!

What does that mean?

Thanks!

 

[UZThD]

In my post above, I said that now with the new website the UZ Theo Fac is listed in the Humanities. After thinking about that, I looked again the website. It is not. It is listed in the Arts!

 

[PatsFan]

Originally posted by UZThD:
UZ offers the D.Th (ThD) in both Systematic Theology and in Practical Theology as well as

UZThD,
I'm curious. What kind of topics do you think a DTh dissertation in Practical Theology at UZ would include? Would this be research in the areas of preaching, Christian education and Christian counseling, do you suppose? (I'm more of a Pracical Theology kind of guy, I think).

Tom

 

[UZThD]

Originally posted by PatsFan:

Originally posted by UZThD:
[qb] UZ offers the D.Th (ThD) in both Systematic Theology and in Practical Theology as well as

UZThD,
I'm curious. What kind of topics do you think a DTh dissertation in Practical Theology at UZ would include? Would this be research in the areas of preaching, Christian education and Christian counseling, do you suppose? (I'm more of a Pracical Theology kind of guy, I think).

===

Tom

I think the research could be in any of those areas. The topic would have to be appropriate in terms of adding to the body of knowledge and matching an area in which both one's supervisor and the student were competent.

Bill Grover