Smashing the "T" out of TULIP

[BobRyan]

Since "the natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them because they are spiritually appraised (1st Corinthians 2:14)," how can such a person accept and embrace "the foolisness of preaching" unless the Spirit does a miracle first?

Is verse 12 a fair summary of chapter 2? He says,

So we have to "receive the Spirit of God" at least in some sense, first, before we can know the things of God (understand and accept the gospel).
...
I have alot of trouble believing that a person like my mom or dad can "believe in magic" without some supernatural intervention. Otherwise why pray to God for their salvation?

It requires supernatural intervention.

Romans 3 "No one seeks after God - no not one" - is combined with "are we different from these - no not at all".

Paul argues that we all have a sinful nature - not just the currently lost.

He argues that not one of the lost will of their own sinful nature - seek after God.

In John 16 God says that the supernatural work is being done "for the world" for "HE the Spirit of truth will convict the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment".

That is fully supernatural.

Jesus said in John 12:32 "I will draw ALL" MANKIND. All "the unqualified unlimited supernatural drawing of ALL.

Genesis 3 tells us that God supernaturally puts an element of war between the children of Eve and the kingdom of Satan. We are not naturally disposed to be at odds with the kingdom of sin and Satan - but God supernaturally places that element there.

In Rev 3 Christ said "I stand at the door and knock - if ANYONE hears my voice AND OPENS the door - I WILL come in".

He does not say "I arbitrarily select out the FEW of Matt 7 smash down their doors and come in".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

To answer this question would be no, not really. Because what this doctrine of "Total Depravity" consist of is the teaching that no one can believe on Jesus Christ unless the Spirit of God causes them to believe. This is not the Spirits role taught throughout the scriptures. It is the Spirit's role, among many things, to point the hearts of men and women towards Jesus, convicting them of sin and pointing to the Truth found in Jesus Christ.

Even by Calvinist standards the "supernatural drawing" of God fully enables the choice that total depravity disables.

So they choke on the Bible fact that God says "He draws ALL" in John 12:32.

But in that drawing - God preserves the free will element He chose for His creation. Mankind is enabled to choose - not forced to choose.

The "only a puppet" models of Calvinists insist that man is forced to choose sin by his sinful nature and forced to choose salvation by God's drawing.

But as usual - they are only half right. Man is forced to sin - in slavery to sin - but the sinner is enabled to flee to escape if they so choose.

John 1 - Christ "came to His own" (the supernatural sovereign act of God) -- "but His own received Him not". (totally devastating to Calvinism).

Matt 23 37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate."


in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

Even by Calvinist standards the "supernatural drawing" of God fully enables the choice that total depravity disables.

So they choke on the Bible fact that God says "He draws ALL" in John 12:32.

But in that drawing - God preserves the free will element He chose for His creation. Mankind is enabled to choose - not forced to choose.

The "only a puppet" models of Calvinists insist that man is forced to choose sin by his sinful nature and forced to choose salvation by God's drawing.

But as usual - they are only half right. Man is forced to sin - in slavery to sin - but the sinner is enabled to flee to escape if they so choose.

John 1 - Christ "came to His own" (the supernatural sovereign act of God) -- "but His own received Him not". (totally devastating to Calvinism).

Matt 23 37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate."


in Christ,

Bob

Very good points! :thumbs:

 

[Yeshua1]

Very good points! :thumbs:

Jesus came to his own, that referred to the Jewish peoples, and many rejected Him, ONLY the faithful remnant God chose to save by Him were saved, so proof for calvinism!


have to remember that its all based upon conyext and grammar, not some self imposed view that those say keeping the Law saves forces upon scriptures like BoB does!

 

[steaver]

Jesus came to his own, that referred to the Jewish peoples, and many rejected Him, ONLY the faithful remnant God chose to save by Him were saved, so proof for calvinism!

Greetings brother,

For years now I have tried to give Calvinism every benefit of my doubt and have searched the scriptures over and over trying to somehow have this doctrine harmonize with the full counsel of God's word. While I have erred on the side of anti-Calvinism in my debates, I have always allowed the possibility that maybe I was just missing some key to the puzzle.

Just recently over the past few months I really brought this doctrine to the forefront of my quest for an absolute decision within me as to whether I was going continue to waffle about it or absolutely reject it or accept it as truth.

Ultimately, after listening to an interview with John MacArthur on the subject, and a sermon from him just a few days after, I was convinced in my spirit I could never accept TULIP as truth.

I do not deny the Sovereignty of God. I do not deny Election/Predestination. I believe the scriptures declare this within the Sovereignty of God but within that Sovereignty of God is the operation of Freewill choice. I believe both are true and both are working in harmony together, scriptures for Election do not defeat the scriptures for Freewill, nor vice-versa.

One of the problems I have with TULIP is being played out right now on this thread. We have a young impressionable lady, a teenager, reaching out to this board of "wisdom" as to the fate of her parents. I have seen a few here from the anti-calvin camp try to help her understand how salvation works and what she should do to help her parents come to Christ. But what would the Calvinist have to say if they were to counsel her with full honesty as to the TULIP pov as to her anguish?

Would the TULIP believer be up front and open with her about their view of the final conclusion concerning salvation? Would you be willing to tell this young lady that according to TULIP, God may not have chosen her parents to be saved, God may have chosen her and has decided that her parents will suffer eternal torment forever and ever. Would you tell her what you believe? Or would you hold back and tell her in part?

To be honest, could you tell this young lady the full truth about your view on the salvation of her parents and have that sit well in your spirit?

John MacArthur was asked, "you once believed in Freewill choice, why?" His answer, "emotions". John had to dismiss his God given emotions, by which the Spirit operates btw, so he could embrace TULIP. That answer is what confirmed in me that I would reject TULIP for good. For I am not about to dismiss my "new creation" spirit's emotions that I may embrace any doctrine. It is the Word and the Spirit that teaches us Truth. I believe TULIP does dismiss the Spirit's guidance on this doctrine. You will notice that all the TULIP preachers and teachers are huge on the Letter, and dismiss the emotions in which the Spirit operates.

I know, I know, we are to try the spirits, and I agree, but we are to test them and not just dismiss them all. And do not give me that scripture about the heart being wicked or deceitful because the born again are given a new heart, a quickened spirit, which has full access to the emotions of the Holy Spirit.

And with that, my sermon is concluded :jesus:

 

[webdog]

Excellent post, Steaver. My story is similar to yours but I was leaning in the cal camp as a friend and spiritual mentor was a cal. The kicker for me is when I heard the question asked, I believe of an adult child who was not a believer, "if God loved me and chose me, and hated my child and didn't choose her...are you saying I love my child more than God does?". Considering God IS love and one of His greatest attributes, to believe a human can do anything non sin related more than God MUST be outright rejected and considered anathema. Her question was one of the best I heard, and valid. Apart from the cal linguistical gymnastics, it cannot be answered truthfully by them.

 

[A Penny Saved]

Wow... it's no wonder I was warned to stay away from Calvinists! I still don't quite know what a Calvinist is (never heard of it until I came here a couple of days ago). But I'm grateful that some of you care enough to reply so thoughtfully, and to pray with me for my parents.

A Penny Saved and Grauteful

 

[steaver]

Wow... it's no wonder I was warned to stay away from Calvinists! I still don't quite know what a Calvinist is (never heard of it until I came here a couple of days ago). But I'm grateful that some of you care enough to reply so thoughtfully, and to pray with me for my parents.

A Penny Saved and Grauteful

Keep in mind though Penny, being a Calvinist does not make a person bad or to be feared. Most are good God fearing, God loving, people loving brothers and sisters in Christ. .Let us all be judged by our love for the brethren and not by any theological, non-essential to the Christian sanctification, doctrines. All these kind of arguments will disappear one day, but love will remain and the rewards of love.

 

[evangelist-7]

My questions are my own, and arise out of concern for my unsaved parents.
If my reasoning is wrong, then please tell me something that will at least
give me some hope for my parents' salvation.
Because nothing shy of a miracle will make them accept "the foolishness"
that their middle-school daughter came home spouting one day last summer.
a pensive, perplexed, penitent Penny

Hi, Penny, and Welcome!

I weep for you ... this is so difficult for you!

I encourage you to pray ...
"in the Mighty Name of Jesus the Son of the Living God"
that He would reveal the Truth to your parents.

If you have the faith for it ... daily, cover them inside and out with the blood of Jesus!

"I plead the precious blood of Jesus all over my parents!
They are totally covered inside and outside with the precious blood of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Praise you, Jesus, for your precious blood that You shed on Calvary!"

This will keep the demons away who control the unsaved in many ways!

A heads up ...
The demons absolutely HATE the words JESUS and the BLOOD of Jesus!
They cannot stand to hear these words!
.

 

[Yeshua1]

Hi, Penny, and Welcome!

I weep for you ... this is so difficult for you!

I encourage you to pray ...
"in the Mighty Name of Jesus the Son of the Living God"
that He would reveal the Truth to your parents.

If you have the faith for it ... daily, cover them inside and out with the blood of Jesus!

"I plead the precious blood of Jesus all over my parents!
They are totally covered inside and outside with the precious blood of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Praise you, Jesus, for your precious blood that You shed on Calvary!"

This will keep the demons away who control the unsaved in many ways!

A heads up ...
The demons absolutely HATE the words JESUS and the BLOOD of Jesus!
They cannot stand to hear these words!
.

There are NO verses in the NT that tell us to pledge the blood of Christ over anyone, to ask for God to protecy by the blood etc...

The blood shed by Jesus paid/atoned for all sins for the sinners God chooses to be saved by that act!


God protects and keeps His own, but the unsaved have no hope of that until saved!

 

[evangelist-7]

2 Corinthians 4:3-4
"But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,
whose minds the god of this age (Satan) has blinded, who do not believe,
lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God,
should shine on them."

Paul says above that Satan has blinded (past tense)
the minds of the unsaved so they cannot believe.

But, IMO, a one-time blinding is NOT enough ...
otherwise, God could not save them after Satan has had his grimy hands on them!

Demons can put thoughts into our minds (but cannot read our minds or thoughts).

When an unsaved person has the gospel preached to him/her,
many times Satan's demon is there talking the person out of believing the Truth.
Mark 4:15
"And these are the ones by the wayside where the word is sown.
When they hear, Satan comes immediately and takes away the word that was sown in their hearts."

The way to avoid this from happening is to make sure the demons have been cleared out.
BACs who do NOT have UNBELIEF in the word of God (there are some)
have the faith, power, and authority "in the name of Jesus" to do this!

My father was saved on his death-bed in this manner, and died about 12 hours later!
.

 

[steaver]

Excellent post, Steaver. My story is similar to yours but I was leaning in the cal camp as a friend and spiritual mentor was a cal. The kicker for me is when I heard the question asked, I believe of an adult child who was not a believer, "if God loved me and chose me, and hated my child and didn't choose her...are you saying I love my child more than God does?". Considering God IS love and one of His greatest attributes, to believe a human can do anything non sin related more than God MUST be outright rejected and considered anathema. Her question was one of the best I heard, and valid. Apart from the cal linguistical gymnastics, it cannot be answered truthfully by them.

And that's where the rubber hits the road so to speak, when one has to take a doctrine, any doctrine, and apply the doctrine's conclusions to what is observable in real life situations.

I listened to John MacArthur's unconvincing interview on the Doctrine of Election (which is available on his website Grace to you for anyone to listen to) and then a few days later heard him on his radio sermon broadcast just railing against the unbelievers for refusing to accept the gospel and proclaiming just how much they deserved every bit of torture and hellfire that was coming their way. Knowing what he believes about the lost having no ability to believe, appalled me as he preached!

That sealed the deal for me, and you know why? Because John was being honest to the word of God that these unbelievers were getting what they deserved, he gave solid scripture which I agree with, but his misplaced belief in his heart that they have no ability to choose Christ makes his preaching the word on this issue misleading at best and cruel or appalling at worse. I personally think the latter.

Let the Calvinist preach to Penny how God may not have chosen to allow her parents to believe. I really don't know how that even sits well within their own spirits. It's like they get stuck on the scriptures of Election and the scriptures of man's freewill to choose become moot. I like Ravi Zachararis' teaching on this subject, I believe he presents a good balance of how one should approach this topic. God's sovereignty is absolute, man's freewill is not, but a freewill does exist within the framework of God's absolute sovereignty because God in His sovereignty has chosen to have it that way from the foundation of the world.

 

[evangelist-7]

God's sovereignty is absolute, man's freewill is not, but a freewill does exist within the framework of God's absolute sovereignty because God in His sovereignty has chosen to have it that way from the foundation of the world.

God is everywhere ... He knows and sees everything (past, present, future)
“For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth” (2 Chronicles 16:9)
“I make known the end from the beginning … and what is still to come” (Isaiah 46:10)
“I am … the Beginning and the End, says the Lord” (Revelation 1:8, 21:6, 22:13)
More: Job 37:16, (Psalm 90:4, 147:5), Proverbs 15:3, Acts 15:18, 1 John 3:20

God knows peoples’ hearts, thoughts, motives, etc.
“… the LORD searches every heart and understands every motive behind the thoughts” (1 Chronicles 28:9).
“I am the One who searches the hearts and minds of people” (Revelation 2:23)
More: 1 Samuel 16:7, 1 Kings 8:39, Psalm 44:21, Proverbs 20:27, Jeremiah 17:10, Jeremiah 20:12

God knows the type of people He wants to spend eternity with
“I dwell in the high and holy place with him who has a contrite and humble spirit” (Isaiah 57:15)
More: 2 Samuel 22:28, (Psalm 34:18, 149:4), Proverbs 3:34, Zephaniah 3:12, James 4:6
A repentant heart towards God is absolutely necessary:
“… unless you repent you will all likewise perish (physically & spiritually) (Luke 13:3, 5)
Truly, the poor (in various ways) are the most likely to have the right heart attitude:
“He (Father God) has anointed Me (Jesus) to preach the gospel to the poor” (Luke 4:18)
“Has God not chosen the poor to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom?” (James 2:5)
More: (Isaiah 61:1, 66:2), Luke 7:22, Matthew 11:5

Does God create each person to have particular godly and ungodly attributes?
If so, why does the NT warn that people are to have and practice the godly attributes?
Is this the main reason for our free-will ... to see if we choose to maintain our godly attributes?
.

 

[Yeshua1]

2 Corinthians 4:3-4
"But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,
whose minds the god of this age (Satan) has blinded, who do not believe,
lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God,
should shine on them."

Paul says above that Satan has blinded (past tense)
the minds of the unsaved so they cannot believe.

But, IMO, a one-time blinding is NOT enough ...
otherwise, God could not save them after Satan has had his grimy hands on them!

Demons can put thoughts into our minds (but cannot read our minds or thoughts).

When an unsaved person has the gospel preached to him/her,
many times Satan's demon is there talking the person out of believing the Truth.
Mark 4:15
"And these are the ones by the wayside where the word is sown.
When they hear, Satan comes immediately and takes away the word that was sown in their hearts."

The way to avoid this from happening is to make sure the demons have been cleared out.
BACs who do NOT have UNBELIEF in the word of God (there are some)
have the faith, power, and authority "in the name of Jesus" to do this!

My father was saved on his death-bed in this manner, and died about 12 hours later!
.

paul states that the unsaved are the ones Satan blinds to the Gospel, as the Elect of god hear it and are saved by it!

 

[steaver]

MacArthur is preaching his doctrine of Election this week on his radio broadcast. If one knows the scriptures, it is easy to pick out the contradictions as he preaches.

Here is one I caught today....

MacArthur - "Look at Romans 9 and I want you to know how God handles this. This is so good. Go back to where we dropped out in verse 18, talking about Jacob and Esau and how God had determined that before they were ever born, and then in verse 19, the imaginary opponent which helps Paul kind of argue with himself and continue to clarify his teaching. His imaginary opponent says, "You will say to me then, 'Why does He still find fault, for who resists His will?'"

"And this is the bone that people always choke on in the doctrine of election. And Paul anticipated it. You're going to say, "That's not fair because then You can't condemn me to hell, You can't find fault with me, how am I going to resist His will?" Verse 20 gives an amazing response, "Who are you, O man, who answers back to God?" Shut your mouth. That doesn't clarify anything. "Who do you think you are? Are you accusing God of unjust punishment of sinners? Are you accusing God of unjust condemnation? Are you accusing God of evil? You better close your mouth before you say anything else."

John continues to unfold his argument for Election.....

"And the illustration is amazing. "The thing molded will not say to the molder, 'Why did you make me like this, will it?'" When a potter makes a pot, the pot doesn't talk. The pot doesn't say, "Well I don't want to be this shape, make me another shape. This isn't fair, I like to be like this pot, or that pot, the other pot." Verse 21, "Doesn't the potter have a right over the clay to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?" That is amazing. Don't you dare question God. God's the potter, you're the clay. The clay is so far beneath the potter. It is inanimate dirt. It has no right to even entertain the idea of speaking to the potter. And as vast as the gulf is between the pot and the potter, even more vast is the gulf between you and God. The potter, verse 21, doesn't he have a right over the clay to make it the way he wants to make it?

Notice how John lays out the argument over and over that God makes the pot/person "the way he wants to make it". So, according to John's unfolding argument, God made the person who is non-elect or lost/condemned because God chose to make that person that way to display His wrath and bring Himself glory......

"And then verse 22, really very, very powerful. "What if..or we could say it...so what if God wants to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known and so He endures with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?" So what if God wants to demonstrate His wrath, doesn't He have a right to demonstrate His wrath? Isn't that part of His glory? Can't He put His wrath on display? He is God. Can't God make His power known in His judgment, in His wrath, in His condemnation?

I checked about a dozen bible versions and not one version translates "What if" as "so what". Notice how just a slight change in the perfect word of God totally changes the entire meaning of the passage? Someone like John MacArthur should know better than to pull such a stunt on his congregation.

Now, John then changes his own argument and contradicts everything he just preached......

"Yes He can, but please notice how verse 22 ends. It flips into passive verbs. It never says God created vessels prepared for destruction, that's double predestination and the Bible doesn't teach that".

Are you kidding me?? John just spent a tirade on how God can make the pot anyway He chooses and then John says oh no, it doesn't say God created the vessels prepared for destruction.

These preachers really need to review what they are going to preach before they preach it and make sure it doesn't contradict itself.

 

[steaver]

Here is another one almost in the same breath taken from the same paragraph......

MacArthur - "God is active in redemption. He is passive in reprobation.................................................................He is the decider and determiner of every person's destiny, and the controller of every detail of every individual's life

Well, which way is it John? Passive or a decider and determiner?

 

[steaver]

MacArthur - "But this doctrine of election is not easy to accept. Some of you are feeling a little pain in your mind right now. This doctrine hurts a little. In fact, if I can make you feel a bit better, it is so painful that the only reason anybody believes in it is because it's in the Bible. We just wouldn't make it up. No man, no number of men, no committee would ever come up with this. We would never come up with a doctrine of eternal hell either because these are things that conflict with the dictates of the carnal mind".

The latter is not true, even the carnal lost minds in this world, other than atheist, have no problem with a Just God determining a heaven and a hell.

 

[steaver]

MacArthur - "Look, I don't understand the Trinity, that doesn't mean it's not true. I can't comprehend the Trinity. I don't know what it means to be three persons and yet one. I can't comprehend the virgin birth. That's incomprehensible. I can't comprehend the character of Christ, His nature. There's so many things I can't understand. There are so many things that are incomprehensible to me but I believe them because they're revealed in Scripture.

And I don't even mind some tension here. I don't even mind the fact that the Bible also says, "Whosoever will," the Bible also says that, "Jesus wept over Jerusalem and said you will not come to Me that you might have life." You say, "Well what is all that?" That's simply saying that anybody who will come can come and anybody who does come will be received." You say, "How does that work together with election?" I don't know. .

This argument could be reversed and applied against his own teaching....

"And I don't even mind some tension here. I don't even mind the fact that the Bible also says, "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate", the Bible also says that, "Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God." You say, "Well what is all that?" That's simply saying that anybody who will come is also God's Elect." You say, "How does that work together with Freewill choice?" I don't know.

John makes a strong argument about how we cannot comprehend so many truths found in the scriptures which seem impossible to marry together and have it make sense. Well, why not look at Election verses Freewill as one of those truths as well. Both are taught and found throughout the scriptures. To promote one at the expense of the other is just as wrong as promoting Jesus as either all God or all man and impossible to be both.

MacArthur has decided to dismiss the "Whosoever" and just ignore it with an "I don't know".

I have a question. How is it that Jesus Christ is called "my elect" by God and at the same time Jesus freely chose to lay down His life? Did Jesus freely choose to lay down His life or was He elected to by the will of God?

 

[evangelist-7]

I have a question.
How is it that Jesus Christ is called "my elect" by God
and at the same time Jesus freely chose to lay down His life?
Did Jesus freely choose to lay down His life or was He elected to by the will of God?

All of God's elect are chosen, called, and expected to freely choose to obey, etc.
And this is exactly why they were chosen to be part of the elect.

The actual elect are those faithful ones described in Romans 8:28-30.
And these are NOT all of the BACs running around everywhere shouting, "PTL!".

God loves to display His proven righteous elect ones!
They stand out so beautifully against the backdrop of the multitudes of the non-elect.
He also liked to talk throughout Scripture about His remnant.
I used to think the path was so narrow re: other religions, etc.
But, that was years ago! ... I see better now.
.

 

[Yeshua1]

Here is another one almost in the same breath taken from the same paragraph......



Well, which way is it John? Passive or a decider and determiner?

he is NOT a Hyper cal, as those folks say that God actively determines BOTH the saved and Lost from Eternity past, that He causes each to go their ways that he purposed for them...

Dr macArthur is like me, a "moderate' cal, would hold that God actively dtermines those whom he choses to save, as that is due soely upon His predestined will/plans/purposes, bit that he just passes by those not saved by Him, and permits them to do and go where they wish to!