Smoking and Beer

[menageriekeeper]

I certainly didn't tell them they had to stop sinning before they could be saved.

Isaiah, chapter 1
16: Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
17: Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
18: Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool

What were they washing in? Is this not a clear reference to the blood of Christ? Did they not wash first and then put away evil?

Of course you preach against sin. But it must be preached to those who can do something about it!

To preach sin to folks who have no hope of understanding what sin is (as opposed to understanding basic right and wrong) accomplishes only a bunch of unhappy people who can't figure out why they are still unhappy even though they are following the prescribed set of rules. They must be brought to the Savior. Learning to recognize sin is part of the process of being saved but learning to NOT sin can't begin until after they accept Christ and are given a new nature.

 

[Brother Bob]

Of course you preach against sin. But it must be preached to those who can do something about it!

To preach sin to folks who have no hope of understanding what sin is (as opposed to understanding basic right and wrong) accomplishes only a bunch of unhappy people who can't figure out why they are still unhappy even though they are following the prescribed set of rules. They must be brought to the Savior. Learning to recognize sin is part of the process of being saved but learning to NOT sin can't begin until after they accept Christ and are given a new nature.__________________

Mar 16:15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

I don't think you are able to look upon the heart. When you do preach, do you single out who you are preaching to and who you are not?

I certainly didn't tell them they had to stop sinning before they could be saved.

You sure taught yours different than I taught mine and all the other children that was within the sound of my voice.

Jhn 9:31Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he
heareth.

Gal 2:17But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, [is] therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

Jam 4:8Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse [your] hands, [ye] sinners; and purify [your] hearts, [ye] double minded.

Luk 13:3I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Act 3:19Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

 

[webdog]

Somewhere HBSMN must be going crazy... :laugh:

 

[EdSutton]

Somewhere HBSMN must be going crazy... :laugh:

:laugh: :tonofbricks:

Ed

 

[charles_creech78]

Mar 16:15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

I don't think you are able to look upon the heart. When you do preach, do you single out who you are preaching to and who you are not?


You sure taught yours different than I taught mine and all the other children that was within the sound of my voice.

Jhn 9:31Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he
heareth.

Gal 2:17But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, [is] therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

Jam 4:8Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse [your] hands, [ye] sinners; and purify [your] hearts, [ye] double minded.

Luk 13:3I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Act 3:19Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

I see what your saying. People need to know that sin seperates them from the love of God.

 

[Brother Bob]

Quote:
Originally Posted by webdog
Somewhere HBSMN must be going crazy... :laugh:

:laugh: :tonofbricks:

Ed

He can still read the posts, so he may be typing up responses as he waits for an early release.

 

[IveyLeaguer]

Because if you don't constantly preach grace and mercy, and by doing so keep religious people in check about their self-righteousness, they will always go astray and start making up new rules to raise the standard for themselves and for others. That's what the Pharisees did. That's what people do today. It's human nature. There's nothing new under the sun.

Well said.

:thumbs:

 

[av1611jim]

What do you thank.

I'm agin' it.

 

[npetreley]

What do you thank.

What do I thank, or whom do I thank?

 

[IveyLeaguer]

I don't know why I got into this drinking discussion. I usually don't, being it really is beyond me why drinking is ok for some, I totally do not understand it.

It could be because you have apparently been taught wrong, Bob. The idea that the moderate consumption of alcohol is a sin is a doctrine of men, not God. The Bible doesn't say it is a sin to consume alcohol. It does become sin, however, if one loses their sobriety.

Remember the words of Jesus, "Go and sin no more".

Jesus also said, "The Son of man has come eating and drinking; and you say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber (drunkard)." Our Lord Himself drank wine and was accused by the Pharisees (the Legalists of His day) of being a drunk. The idea that the wine Jesus drank did not contain alcohol, as many claim, is absurd, too ridiculous to respond to, except to say 'search the Scriptures'. We know that Jesus never got drunk because He never sinned, and the accusation was, of course, false.

It's fine to point out the dangers of alcohol and to even advise others not to consume it. But to use the authority of God by declaring to others that any consumption of alcohol is a sin, is to misrepresent God by adding to the Scriptures. That is Legalism in the spirit of the Pharisees. And that is most certainly sin.

raying:

 

[Brother Bob]

could be because you have apparently been taught wrong, Bob. The idea that the moderate consumption of alcohol is a sin is a doctrine of men, not God. The Bible doesn't say it is a sin to consume alcohol. It does become sin, however, if one loses their sobriety.

Quote:
Remember the words of Jesus, "Go and sin no more".
Jesus also said, "The Son of man has come eating and drinking; and you say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber (drunkard)." Our Lord Himself drank wine and was accused by the Pharisees (the Legalists of His day) of being a drunk. The idea that the wine Jesus drank did not contain alcohol, as many claim, is absurd, too ridiculous to respond to, except to say 'search the Scriptures'. We know that Jesus never got drunk because He never sinned, and the accusation was, of course, false.

It's fine to point out the dangers of alcohol and to even advise others not to consume it. But to use the authority of God by declaring to others that any consumption of alcohol is a sin, is to misrepresent God by adding to the Scriptures. That is Legalism in the spirit of the Pharisees. And that is most certainly sin.

Or maybe you been taught wrong, you ever think about that. Especially when you call Christ a "drunkard".

If the accusation was false, why did you use it? Men always devise ways so as to justify the things they want to do.

You saying because we do not allow drinking in our church is most certainly a sin, is clearly wrong.

In any case, studies have shown that impairment begins with the first drink.

 

[IfbReformer]

The Bible is clear that we our body is the temple of God and we are to honor God with it.

"19Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body."
1 Corinthians 6:18-20

This is why we should'nt abuse our bodies with drugs and promisious sex among other things.

Then we must ask what constitutes abuse of the body?

Sometimes even one use of something on the body would constitute sin and we would all agree:

Having premarital or extramarital relations only once would be sinful and am abuse of the temple of God.

You can name others.....

But what about these....

Does one eating one twinkie constitute an abuse of my body?
How about 10 twinkies everyday?

How much eating is gluttony - one plate of food, two plates of food, three plates of food....

What about drinking alchohal? is one drink bad? is two drinks bad? Or is it whatever would cause a person to be drunk? As I recall the Bible only condemns drunkeness and those who go after much wine. Yet it tells us in Proverbs:

Proverbs 31:6
Give beer to those who are perishing, wine to those who are in anguish;

and in I Timothy:

1 Timothy 5:23
Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses.

In fact up until the late 1800s it was very common for people to have wine with their dinner. Then the temperance movement started and because of the abuse of alchohal and the help of former alchohalics like Billy Sunday Prohibition came about.

Consider these passages that are often used to say any drinking of alchohal is forbidden by the scriptures:

Proverbs 20:1
Wine is a mocker and beer a brawler; whoever is led astray by them is not wise.

Amen! Whoever is "led astray" by alchohal is not wise. That is what the scripture is saying. It is not saying whoever drinks alchohal at all is not wise.

Proverbs 23:20
Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat,

Amen! We should not join in with those who drink "too much" wine or who are gluttons. I wonder how many on this board who would not associate with a believer who ever touches a glass of wine to his mouth would disassociate themselves from someone who eats too much?

Proverbs 23:31
Do not gaze at wine when it is red, when it sparkles in the cup, when it goes down smoothly!

Amen! we should ont drink wine that has drugs mixed in it! Consider the context of this verse:

30 Those who linger over wine,
who go to sample bowls of mixed wine.
31 Do not gaze at wine when it is red,
when it sparkles in the cup,
when it goes down smoothly!

Mixed wine refers to wine that has drugs(usually it was hallucinigans in it). The wine being red does not refer to it simply being a alchohalic beverage.

Do we need to be careful of where and when we drink alchohal if we do as Christians - absolutely! I do not drink publically, except for occasionally at a relatives wedding I will toast a glass of wine to the bride and groom.

And even in private its only a few times a year at best and very little at that. My father who is a believer grew in going to his Grandmother's house who was from Germany every Sunday for dinner. They all had a glass of wine with their meals(even the children). It was a small wine glass, but regardless it was wine. Thats probably why I don't share the American Christian phobia of wine.

On the other hand my grandfather on my mother's side was drop dead alchohalic. So I understand the dangers of too much wine as well.

Its like anything else - it can be abused. If any drinking makes one an alchohalic than I guess that means any shooting of a gun will lead someone to be a murderer.

IFBReformer

 

[saturneptune]

Or maybe you been taught wrong, you ever think about that. Especially when you call Christ a "drunkard".

If the accusation was false, why did you use it? Men always devise ways so as to justify the things they want to do.

You saying because we do not allow drinking in our church is most certainly a sin, is pure ignorance.

Brother Bob is correct (100%) in his conclusion. Forget the Bible for a minute. What is everyone's fascination with being given the liberty to drink just enough not to get drunk? Does that make you feel like a real man?

Tell me one positive thing that alcohol has ever done for a person, family, or job. The first time you took a drink, you did not like the taste. One has to learn to like the taste. That should have told you something there. From observation and personal experience, the evidence is quite clear, and Bob is right, one drink goes to another to another, and that leads to all sorts of mess. What is the point? Do you want a gold star that says "Hey look at me, I can drink and not get drunk." Even if Christ did drink wine ( not getting into that here), He had a perfect nature. Man does not.

Bob and I may have gotten to the same conclusion in a different manner, he by reading the Scripture, and me by conviction, but the bottom line is, it is the same conclusion, same Spirit. If you have no problem with drinking, then you should have no problem popping a cool one while teaching Sunday School or at pot luck. If it bothers you there, it should bother you always.

The same goes for cigarettes.

 

[IveyLeaguer]

... Especially when you call Christ a "drunkard".

If the accusation was false, why did you use it? Men always devise ways so as to justify the things they want to do.

You saying because we do not allow drinking in our church is most certainly a sin, is pure ignorance.

My goodness, Bob, I didn't say any of that. If you'll calm down and reread what I said, maybe you will see that.

This is a matter of Biblical exegesis, not opinion, and it's nothing personal or emotional.

raying:

 

[corndogggy]

Bob and I may have gotten to the same conclusion in a different manner, he by reading the Scripture, and me by conviction, but the bottom line is, it is the same conclusion, same Spirit. If you have no problem with drinking, then you should have no problem popping a cool one while teaching Sunday School or at pot luck. If it bothers you there, it should bother you always.

Quite honestly it really wouldn't bother me, other than the evil looks that everybody else would give me. Personally I probably still wouldn't do it during actual church, but because of the same reasons that I wouldn't eat cotton candy during Sunday service, not because there's alcohol in it. But, a potluck... wouldn't bother me one bit. Maybe I'm part Catholic. :thumbs:

It's just amazing to me how many people could read what I just typed and think that's horrible, yet they won't think anything about the smokers in the parking lot at church.

 

[IfbReformer]

In any case, studies have shown that impairment begins with the first drink.

Nonprescription and prescription drugs, such as cold tablets, cough syrups, allergy remedies, etc. may contain antihistamines, alcohol, codeine and other chemicals that affect judgment. We see warning labels all the time for these things.

Should we not take pain pills or cough medicine either? The Christians I know that only occasionally drink do so for relaxation purposes. I totally agree that just one small alchohalic drink will relax a person - studies have definitely shown that. And any drug(or herbal subistute), be it perscription or other wise that relaxes will to small extent impair judgment. That fact alone does not make it wrong. Its if it is abused.

We should always be in control of ourselves(thats what temperance is), but that does not mean we cannot take foods or medicines or drinks that help us relax. We can still be in control, but relaxed.

You may say there are other ways to relax than to drink alchohal, and I agree there probably are. But that does not make alchohal wrong just because there are other ways to relax.

IFBReformer

 

[IfbReformer]

Brother Bob is correct (100%) in his conclusion. Forget the Bible for a minute. What is everyone's fascination with being given the liberty to drink just enough not to get drunk? Does that make you feel like a real man?

Tell me one positive thing that alcohol has ever done for a person, family, or job. The first time you took a drink, you did not like the taste. One has to learn to like the taste. That should have told you something there. From observation and personal experience, the evidence is quite clear, and Bob is right, one drink goes to another to another, and that leads to all sorts of mess. What is the point? Do you want a gold star that says "Hey look at me, I can drink and not get drunk." Even if Christ did drink wine ( not getting into that here), He had a perfect nature. Man does not.

Bob and I may have gotten to the same conclusion in a different manner, he by reading the Scripture, and me by conviction, but the bottom line is, it is the same conclusion, same Spirit. If you have no problem with drinking, then you should have no problem popping a cool one while teaching Sunday School or at pot luck. If it bothers you there, it should bother you always.

The same goes for cigarettes.

Tell me one positive thing that alcohol has ever done for a person, family, or job.

Actually I am sure that soilders on the battle fields (especially the ones from earlier wars) can tell you alchohol has done many positive things. On the battlefield it acted as both a cleaner of wounds and as pain medication when men were wounded.

I am sure many people could tell you of relaxing times they have spent by the fire place reading a book with a nice glass of wine. Sorry to burst your bubble, but not everyone who drinks is an alchohalic - just like not everyone who owns a gun is a criminal.

Does it make you feel safer to tell everyone they cannot drink at all? Would it make you feel safer to tell everyone on this board they should not own a gun as well(so they won't accidentally shoot someone)?

IFBReformer

 

[Hope of Glory]

Brother Bob is correct (100%) in his conclusion. Forget the Bible for a minute. What is everyone's fascination with being given the liberty to drink just enough not to get drunk? Does that make you feel like a real man?

You know, I preach a whole lot against drinking. I don't drink at all, and recommend that others follow suit.

However, I'm not going to use an untruth to get them to do it.

There is no prohibition in the Bible against drinking, just against drinking too much.

Now, there's only one way that you can guarantee that you don't drink too much, and that's abstain completely.

But, honesty is the best policy, because if you are dishonest (or spread an untruth unintentionally), the people are going to doubt the next thing you say and the next and the next. If your position is just, you don't need to be dishonest to prove it.

BTW, even an aspirin affects the mind and the body. Does anyone here avoid even an aspirin?

 

[Brother Bob]

My goodness, Bob, I didn't say any of that. If you'll calm down and reread what I said, maybe you will see that.

This is a matter of Biblical exegesis, not opinion, and it's nothing personal or emotional.

Sorry about the ignorance remark, I was out of line and please forgive me.

 

[saturneptune]

You know, I preach a whole lot against drinking. I don't drink at all, and recommend that others follow suit.

However, I'm not going to use an untruth to get them to do it.

There is no prohibition in the Bible against drinking, just against drinking too much.

Now, there's only one way that you can guarantee that you don't drink too much, and that's abstain completely.

But, honesty is the best policy, because if you are dishonest (or spread an untruth unintentionally), the people are going to doubt the next thing you say and the next and the next. If your position is just, you don't need to be dishonest to prove it.

BTW, even an aspirin affects the mind and the body. Does anyone here avoid even an aspirin?

People who take the position to abstain are not being dishonest. What those who criticize Bob and others are doing is using the Scripture as a crutch, looking at it in a very legalistic way, nit picking it, to justify drinking. We all have the Holy Spirit guiding us. There is no disharmony is how He leads us and the Scripture. If He leads you to the fact that it is ok to drink, then it should not bother you to do it at any time or any place. If it does, then something is wrong, and needs to be searched out.

I dont know how the cigarettes in the parking lot got into this, but the same goes for that substance. If you smoke, then it should not bother you to smoke while teaching Sunday School. (Pardon me Johnny, let me take another drag, then I will answer your question).

Its like coming out of an R rated movie. If you feel justified in doing so, would you feel the same if one of your Sunday School students saw you leave? If it does, something is amiss, and in this thread, something is amiss, and the untruth is not on my side.

One Spirit for us all. He does not lead one person one way, and another contrary.