Snow White

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

if i wanted to discuss leaven in this thread, the title would look more like this one http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=32708 and it would be 13 pages long.

I think that it was CH Waller that said: God does not waste words. I am not asking you to go outside the Bible to find the answer to my questions. It seems like you're saying that three (in the parable) is arbitrary. it could have been 2 or 12 and the parable would have the same meaning. but Jesus specifically said 3. why 3?

is it possible, just possible, that Jesus said 3 for a specific reason? Maybe a reason that His audience would understand? His audience that may have included some that were familiar with the Law?

The Law that specifies how much flour is to be used in the meat (or meal) offering?

As I said the point in bringing this parable up is to show you that there can be mixed metaphors. You are wanting to ascribe absolutes to white as always pure, therefore you see a contradiction with leprosy pictured as white. But I am trying to show you that leaven is not always corrupt as you have stated. So forget the other arbitrary details of this parable. The simple fact is that leaven is compared to the kingdom of God, it says so plainly. Now since leaven is not always symbolic of sin, whiteness does not have to always be symbolic of purity unless in the context would seem to indicate that is the case.

 

[richard n koustas]

rbell: I am happy that you chimed in.

You are wanting to ascribe absolutes to white as always pure, therefore you see a contradiction with leprosy pictured as white.

I just reread all my posts. I am sorry if i misled you, but, I don't think I said that white is always pure. and i didn't say that i see a contradiction.

what i want to see is a connection. and i guess you don't see one .

So forget the other arbitrary details of this parable.

Parables have arbitrary details?!? maybe i'll start a new thread. btw, i used to hold your view on the leaven issue.

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

rbell: I am happy that you chimed in.


I just reread all my posts. I am sorry if i misled you, but, I don't think I said that white is always pure. and i didn't say that i see a contradiction.

what i want to see is a connection. and i guess you don't see one .


Parables have arbitrary details?!? maybe i'll start a new thread. btw, i used to hold your view on the leaven issue.

Straight up, do you see that the leaven is compared to the kingdom of heaven or don't you. If you do not then you are avoiding the plain reading of the Bible and you are imploring a hermeneutical approach that I would not be willing to support.

 

[richard n koustas]

Straight up, do you see that the leaven is compared to the kingdom of heaven or don't you. If you do not then you are avoiding the plain reading of the Bible and you are imploring a hermeneutical approach that I would not be willing to support.

Yes, it is being compared to the kingdom of heaven. and so is the dragnet (matt. 13:47-9). Now, what's in the kingdom (net)? only good (fish)? no. in the net there were both good and bad. clean and unclean.

 

[DeeJay]

I saw the "snow white" thread, and it made me grumpy. 'Course, that might be from the cold I have, since I've been sneezy all day. I guess I should see the doc. But anyway, I'm happy to chime in here. This thread has taken a dopey turn. I got sleepy reading some of your responses...but I gotta hand it to ya, some of you sure aren't bashful about saying what you think.

:applause: :laugh: :laugh: :applause:

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

Yes, it is being compared to the kingdom of heaven. and so is the dragnet (matt. 13:47-9). Now, what's in the kingdom (net)? only good (fish)? no. in the net there were both good and bad. clean and unclean.

As with any parable there is a point at which you need to try and understand what is being taught through the metaphor. The point is too use an illustration that gives us more insight in to propositional teaching. With the leaven there is a chemistry to cooking bread. Leaven works its way through the dough in order to make it rise. If the leaven spoils it will spoil the batch and ruin the dough. The Pharisees leaven was working its way into the minds of the disciples and he warned them not to let the spoiled teachings of the Pharisees negatively affect their understanding. The leaven in 13 is compared to a mustard seed that is planted. The mustard seed is given as an illustration on the cuffs of the parable of the seed sower. The seed is the Word of God. Since the Word of God does not return void, the illustration of a small seed sown gives us cause to understand that it later can produce big results. In a simply way leaven though small in portion works its way through the whole and causes a substantive change in the chemistry of the dough enough to make it rise. Leaven has a chemical property that is useful in making analogies.

Now as to your illustration about the net in vs. 47, that has no bearing on the nature the leaven in vs. 33. While I will concede you that it is a type of conflicting metaphor. I would say that based on your understanding of the net you may have the ability to resolve your dilemma with conflicting metaphorical language but you need to keep in mind that no background information is needed to understand the Bible. The Bible gives you all the information you need to resolve its message and to understand its meaning. Any spiritual or allegorical truth should not violate the plain and simple reading of the text.

 

[richard n koustas]

The mustard seed is given as an illustration on the cuffs of the parable of the seed sower. The seed is the Word of God. Since the Word of God does not return void, the illustration of a small seed sown gives us cause to understand that it later can produce big results. .

What about the birds? are the birds the same in both parables? or are the birds just an arbitrary detail in the parable of the mustard seed and specifically the 'evil one' in the parable of the sower?

Now as to your illustration about the net in vs. 47, that has no bearing on the nature the leaven in vs. 33.

the only thing i was trying to point out is that the kingdom of heaven can contain bad things, corruption, or evil.

 

[richard n koustas]

The Bible gives you all the information you need to resolve its message and to understand its meaning. Any spiritual or allegorical truth should not violate the plain and simple reading of the text.

I forgot to add this...I AGREE! when i start comparing scripture with scripture, i come up with these crazy topics...

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

What about the birds? are the birds the same in both parables? or are the birds just an arbitrary detail in the parable of the mustard seed and specifically the 'evil one' in the parable of the sower?


the only thing i was trying to point out is that the kingdom of heaven can contain bad things, corruption, or evil.

Context, context, context...

In the parable of the seed sower the birds are used to illustrate that a seed sown on bad soil will not produce fruit. Birds are not evil in and of themselves, just as leaven is not necessarily good or bad. Leaven has properties that function accordingly and leaven works its way through the material in which it is introduced. The kingdom of heaven in this case has similar properties as leaven. A small seed sown, such as a mustard seed, which seems insignificant based on the size of the seed, once sown can produce huge results. Ironically the birds which at one point we able to gobble up the seeds in the previous parable are now able to rest on the branches of a fully realized fruit bearing tree. The birds have no more power to encumber the growth of the seed and are seen as powerless.

Now as to your observation that the parable of the net illustrates that there is a corruption within the kingdom of heaven that is not necessarily true. The net represents the judgment. Inasmuch as we are all going to be gathered up and only those who have faith in Christ will be considered worthy of the kingdom of heaven. Those who are not found worthy will be discarded. The net does not represent the kingdom per se but only the process by which those who make it to the kingdom are drawn. Yet, there is a process by which those are corrupt are discarded. There is no corruption found within the kingdom of heaven I can assure you.