Snuggling With Satan?

[Zaatar71]

Failed ideas is not a reason to start bring dishonest.

Hello Johnc
JohnC, you have a problem in that you accuse people of things that are not true. I am not being dishonest, and this is the third time you have said so.

I have asked you many times to defend your theology. Every time you give passages we all agree with and then tell me what it really teaches.

It is not my fault that you do not understand it. It Is not the fault of every Cal who tries to help you. We are not all dishonest, or whatever you accuse os of. You just do not understand it, so you start to lash out.

You have to explain your presuppositions because they get you from Scripture to what you believe the Bible really teaches.

My understanding (my stayed belief) is simply what God has said. God forgives our sins when we "repent", a "new heart", when we "die to sin", "turns from wickedness", "turns to God".

You say that you acceot my stated belief as true

No, let me clarify! I accept that you are free to believe what you think is true. I accept the same for Van, Charlie, and all those who do not agree. We can differ. That does not mean I am saying to you, yes Johnc I accept what you say is true, I do not. That should be clear by now!

but that God's actual words leave out the most important part - satisfying the demands of justice.

None of the Calvinists believe anything like that, but you are so used to repeating your new found mantra, that you are starting to believe it.When we post how and why we differ, you make denigrating comments, as if I asked you...JohnC ,have you stopped beating your wife, yet???
That would presuppose you were doing that, ask you to answer, the false charge, and then get ready to defend against the next accusation.That is what each of us has tried to communicate to you.

So I ask you to state and defend this philosophy of justice you are using.

You again call it a philosphy...I do not, so I am not going to defend against a false charge,

Then you start with the insults again.

No Johnc, I read your posts and basically say the same things back in your direction...for example...Jesus is God incarnate, did you not realize that Johnc, let me help you with that! Maybe if you learn the basics, than you will make progress...see , that is what you do, you tell Martin he believes Catholic doctrine, when he does not, you say we a re confused, go read your own posts to us. When we say that in your direction, you do not like it at all do you?

You start by misrepresenting what I have posted.

Back at you! That is your specialty .. each of us has said that to you!

That tells me what I already know. You have no clue why you hold your faith except that you like the vonclusions 9f one sect of men.

Here is a perfect example,you try to speak down to me, as if you know what you are talking about. Then accuse me as if I do not study scripture, which I do daily. Where do you get off saying this? Youcan do it if you want, but it does not make it true.

That is what I mean by you not realky being a Calvinist.

I have for got more Calvinistic teaching than you will ever know. Yet you accuse me over and over. Your accusations are foolish.

You adopt the conclusions of these men but cannot grasp how they got there.

another accusation, see ,right here! Now who is being dishonest? It is you my friend ,
JohnC! Take a poll, see what others say.

This is different for actual Calvinists.

You have shown your self to be clueless and unqualified to make such a foul accusation. Your comments betray your posting.

Calvin, for example, explained how he developed Penal SubstitutionTheor.

I do not care much what Calvin saw. I am glad he saw much that people find helpful, but I study on my own. Do I fine tune what I have found, certainly I do. I am not a lone ranger, who says, look at me, I alone have found the correct way to come to truth, when no onwe in Church hsitery agrees with you. nevertheless you set yourself up as Judge over other believers.

He explained his judicial philosophy. You simply regurgitate their conclusions.

I have not quoted Calvin at all. I do not need to. I can offer my own verses.

If you want to resume an honest discussion then start at the point where you ran away.

I am not that interested in your posts, as you insist on three or four accusations when you post to avoid the doctrines of grace. You mostly copy and paste you same false ideas, over and over. There is very little to glean from your posts.

What is the purpose of punishment?

Why is it impossible for God to forgive actual sins?

Why does the Atonement fall under divine justice?

You have been offered many clear verses on how violators of the law are under the wrath of God...not evil men.not Satan, not Demons, the wrath of God abides on them.You oppose this. How can repeating all the verses be of any help, you are in unbelief on them. That can only come from God.

 

[Zaatar71]

We differ on what the Bible actually teaches.

Yes

I believe the Bible teaches "what is written" in the biblical text (God's actual words) and tgat we must conform our understanding to His words.

All the Calvinists do also.

You believe the Bible teaches what men say the Bible really teaches.

I and other Calvinists are on the same page as to what the bible teaches, you are not.

But you cannot defend how you get from God's words to what those men have told you to believe (you do not understand the thought process in the beliefs you have borrowed from other men).

A false accusation once again.

But yes, I have offered God's words. You criticized me for it, saying snybody can quote Scripture. And you were right. Anybody can quote Scripture.

yes

But not just anybody can believe "the words that come forth from God" as many end up "leaning on their own understanding".

you accuse once again, but it is right back at you.

That said, if you ever find yourself able to legitimately posses the belief you correctly borrow then I am willing to listen to how you move from God's words to what you think it teaches.

I will keep you posted on that.lol

 

[Zaatar71]

Nope. If I were doing it to you then I would say you were replying in kind.

You might not be aware of it, but at least 5 posters that I have seen in the last few weeks, have posted that to YOU, and asked you to stop.Go read over your posts.

That is why I respond to @Martin Marprelate as I do (we have a long history).

I have seen him say several times, he wants you to stop doing that, but you persist.

But I was legitimately hoping you and I could have an honest conversation.

maybe at some other time, but I am not going to respond to false allegations

What you did was join the pack - jump into the frey because of how I responded to a member who agrees with the belief you are currently affiliated with. That is another readon I believe you are not truly a Calvinist. Rather than engaging in our conversation you defend members of the camp you admire.

I do defend brothers under attack. they also Have my back...That is what brothers do ,right? Ask the men you speak of if they think i am a Calvinist, or an arminian?

 

[JonC]

Hello Johnc
JohnC, you have a problem in that you accuse people of things that are not true. I am not being dishonest, and this is the third time you have said so.

It is not my fault that you do not understand it. It Is not the fault of every Cal who tries to help you. We are not all dishonest, or whatever you accuse os of. You just do not understand it, so you start to lash out.

No, let me clarify! I accept that you are free to believe what you think is true. I accept the same for Van, Charlie, and all those who do not agree. We can differ. That does not mean I am saying to you, yes Johnc I accept what you say is true, I do not. That should be clear by now!

None of the Calvinists believe anything like that, but you are so used to repeating your new found mantra, that you are starting to believe it.When we post how and why we differ, you make denigrating comments, as if I asked you...JohnC ,have you stopped beating your wife, yet???
That would presuppose you were doing that, ask you to answer, the false charge, and then get ready to defend against the next accusation.That is what each of us has tried to communicate to you.

You again call it a philosphy...I do not, so I am not going to defend against a false charge,

No Johnc, I read your posts and basically say the same things back in your direction...for example...Jesus is God incarnate, did you not realize that Johnc, let me help you with that! Maybe if you learn the basics, than you will make progress...see , that is what you do, you tell Martin he believes Catholic doctrine, when he does not, you say we a re confused, go read your own posts to us. When we say that in your direction, you do not like it at all do you?

Back at you! That is your specialty .. each of us has said that to you!

Here is a perfect example,you try to speak down to me, as if you know what you are talking about. Then accuse me as if I do not study scripture, which I do daily. Where do you get off saying this? Youcan do it if you want, but it does not make it true.

I have for got more Calvinistic teaching than you will ever know. Yet you accuse me over and over. Your accusations are foolish.

another accusation, see ,right here! Now who is being dishonest? It is you my friend ,
JohnC! Take a poll, see what others say.

You have shown your self to be clueless and unqualified to make such a foul accusation. Your comments betray your posting.

I do not care much what Calvin saw. I am glad he saw much that people find helpful, but I study on my own. Do I fine tune what I have found, certainly I do. I am not a lone ranger, who says, look at me, I alone have found the correct way to come to truth, when no onwe in Church hsitery agrees with you. nevertheless you set yourself up as Judge over other believers.

I have not quoted Calvin at all. I do not need to. I can offer my own verses.

I am not that interested in your posts, as you insist on three or four accusations when you post to avoid the doctrines of grace. You mostly copy and paste you same false ideas, over and over. There is very little to glean from your posts.

You have been offered many clear verses on how violators of the law are under the wrath of God...not evil men.not Satan, not Demons, the wrath of God abides on them.You oppose this. How can repeating all the verses be of any help, you are in unbelief on them. That can only come from God.

What I mean is you were dishonest when you asked for an honest discussion rather than trading insults. That was not an honest ask. If it were then we would be having a legitimate conversation right now.

You and I were discussing the Atonement and how we differ in our positions.

You asked how I would explain God laying our iniquity on Christ if not removing sin from us to put on Him.

I offered that the Bible uses this laying on and bearing in two scenarios
God lays our sins on Jesus.
God lays Jesus' righteous on us
Jesus bears our sins
We bear His righteousness

I gave the example of wrapping one in righteousness, or sin. I said you can think of it like a blanket (older pastors used this imagery instead of "garmet" and "robe" to illustrate this righteousness is God's righteousness and we are bring conformed, a future glorification....they used "a blanket of righteousness").

Rather than discussing the actual point you chose to start a thread to insult me.


How can that not mean you accepting my offer and desire to have a legitimate discussion to have been a dishonest action?