So much for its Trumps fault or bears any responsibility

[Reformed1689]

I learned long ago that our beliefs have no bearing on facts.

I understand what you mean, and I agree. BUT Trump did loose the election. The way our election system is set up fraud can occur at the state level, however it remains at the state level (they choose the electors....the State is not legally bound to send the electors elected by the people, the electors are not bound to cast a vote for the candidate chosen by the State). The system was a compromise (many wanted the House to simply choose a President, as the House represents the people).

I have one issue with the "fraud" charges in that I believe the biggest fraud was lying to people to get their vote. We look at parties stealing the election, but candidates who lie are effectually stealing votes from the people who fall for their lies. And this happened on both sides (I cannot see that Biden lied any more or less than Trump). So the whole thing was fraudulent.

Actually, in many states, electors are bound to vote for who the people voted for. But what I am saying is the vote was illegitimate and the electors were illegitimate because the election laws were not followed. That's not a belief, that is a fact. I am not looking at fraud for the 2020 election, though I believe that played a part, I am talking about the illegal altering of election laws by unelected officials. It gave the legislatures a cop-out of turning a blind eye and certifying the votes and sending the electors. Plausible deniability if you will. What is interesting is several states asked that Congress reject their certification after the fact. Honestly, we should have scrapped all of the results, forced election laws to be followed and re-held the election.

 

[Reformed1689]

The Democrats did not call for the riots (for violence). They pretended it was peaceful and blamed the violence on Trump supporters.

• In 2008, President Obama said, “I need you to go out and talk to your friends and talk to your neighbors. I want you to talk to them whether they are independent or whether they are Republican. I want you to argue with them and get in their face.” Source
• In June 2018, Rep. Maxine Waters said, “If you see anybody from that cabinet in a restaurant, at a department store, at a gasoline station, you get out and you create a crowd. And you push back on them, and you tell them they’re not welcome anymore, anywhere.” Source
• In July 2018, Senator Cory Booker said, “That’s my call to action here. Please just don’t come here and then go home. Go to the Hill today…Please, get up in the face of some congresspeople.” Source
• In June of 2018, then Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi said, “I just don’t even know why there aren’t uprisings all over the country. And maybe there will be.” Source
• In 2017, Senator Tim Kaine said, "So, the way we get outside the bubble is we take advantage of this tremendous public outcry against the administration…What we've got to do is fight in Congress, fight in the courts, fight in the streets, fight online, fight at the ballot box, and now there's the momentum to be able to do this.” Source
• In August 2020, Rep. Ayanna Pressley said, “There needs to be unrest in the streets for as long as there’s unrest in our lives.” Source
• In March 2018, Joe Biden said, “If we were in high school, I’d take him behind the gym and beat the hell out of him.” Source
• In February 2018, Donny Deutsch said, “People need to start taking to the streets. You know this is a dictator.” Source
• In October 2018, former Attorney General Eric Holder said, “If they go low, we kick them.” Source
• In October 2016, Robert Deniro said, “I’d like to punch him in the face.” Source
• In June 2017, Johnny Depp said, “When was the last time an actor assassinated a President?” Source
• In September 2018, Carol Cooke said, “Where is John Wilkes Boothe when you need him?” Source
• In January 2017, Madonna said, “Yes, I’m angry. Yes, I am outraged. Yes, I have thought an awful lot about blowing up the White House.” Source
• In October 2017, Rep. Maxine Waters said, “I will go and take Trump out tonight.” Source
• In August 2017, Sen. Maria Chappelle-Nadal said, “I hope Trump is assassinated!” Source

 

[JonC]

Actually, in many states, electors are bound to vote for who the people voted for. But what I am saying is the vote was illegitimate and the electors were illegitimate because the election laws were not followed. That's not a belief, that is a fact. I am not looking at fraud for the 2020 election, though I believe that played a part, I am talking about the illegal altering of election laws by unelected officials. It gave the legislatures a cop-out of turning a blind eye and certifying the votes and sending the electors. Plausible deniability if you will. What is interesting is several states asked that Congress reject their certification after the fact. Honestly, we should have scrapped all of the results, forced election laws to be followed and re-held the election.

Yes...."many states". That is my point.

We seem to want a fair national election, but at the same time we want to keep it at the state level. Politics is politics. I do not know that there is a good answer for how elections are handled.

 

[JonC]

• In 2008, President Obama said, “I need you to go out and talk to your friends and talk to your neighbors. I want you to talk to them whether they are independent or whether they are Republican. I want you to argue with them and get in their face.” Source
• In June 2018, Rep. Maxine Waters said, “If you see anybody from that cabinet in a restaurant, at a department store, at a gasoline station, you get out and you create a crowd. And you push back on them, and you tell them they’re not welcome anymore, anywhere.” Source
• In July 2018, Senator Cory Booker said, “That’s my call to action here. Please just don’t come here and then go home. Go to the Hill today…Please, get up in the face of some congresspeople.” Source
• In June of 2018, then Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi said, “I just don’t even know why there aren’t uprisings all over the country. And maybe there will be.” Source
• In 2017, Senator Tim Kaine said, "So, the way we get outside the bubble is we take advantage of this tremendous public outcry against the administration…What we've got to do is fight in Congress, fight in the courts, fight in the streets, fight online, fight at the ballot box, and now there's the momentum to be able to do this.” Source
• In August 2020, Rep. Ayanna Pressley said, “There needs to be unrest in the streets for as long as there’s unrest in our lives.” Source
• In March 2018, Joe Biden said, “If we were in high school, I’d take him behind the gym and beat the hell out of him.” Source
• In February 2018, Donny Deutsch said, “People need to start taking to the streets. You know this is a dictator.” Source
• In October 2018, former Attorney General Eric Holder said, “If they go low, we kick them.” Source
• In October 2016, Robert Deniro said, “I’d like to punch him in the face.” Source
• In June 2017, Johnny Depp said, “When was the last time an actor assassinated a President?” Source
• In September 2018, Carol Cooke said, “Where is John Wilkes Boothe when you need him?” Source
• In January 2017, Madonna said, “Yes, I’m angry. Yes, I am outraged. Yes, I have thought an awful lot about blowing up the White House.” Source
• In October 2017, Rep. Maxine Waters said, “I will go and take Trump out tonight.” Source
• In August 2017, Sen. Maria Chappelle-Nadal said, “I hope Trump is assassinated!” Source

Long ago I was in Norway, just north of the artic circle. Several NCO's got beer and stayed at the cabin we were in at the time. They drank the beer (we had a two beer limit, but they drank more). One of my soldiers went to town and drank more than two beers and got caught (another came back wearing a German uniform....another story). His complaint when he was disciplined for drinking more than two beers was "the squad leaders did the same thing".

My response was to hold him responsible for his actions. Why? Because the actions of other people do not remove responsibility for his own actions. Those squad leaders did the same thing, but they did not get caught because of their situation. My solder got caught because of his situation.

The actions of other people do not remove responsibility for Trump. I agree that his words were no worse than theirs (they were not as bad). But their words were not used to encourage people to riot (not just those who had planned the thing, but others who were drawn in).

I liked Trump as President. I think that he did more for our nation than any other President in recent history. But I am not going to pretend that he has no responsibility for what happened on January 6. I can't do that because it is not true.

I am not saying he caused the riot. But he is responsible for his words and for the environment in which he chose to speak those words.

This is one major problem with our nation today. We have some wanting to censure free speech....but on the other end we have others who believe having the right to do something removes responsibility for doing it.

 

[Reformed1689]

But their words were not used to encourage people to riot (not just those who had planned the thing, but others who were drawn in).

We have a fundamental disagreement here. I believe their words WERE used to encourage riots and unrest in the streets.

 

[Reformed1689]

This is one major problem with our nation today. We have some wanting to censure free speech....but on the other end we have others who believe having the right to do something removes responsibility for doing it.

Trump would only be responsible if he told them to go riot. Period.

 

[percho]

Actually, in many states, electors are bound to vote for who the people voted for. But what I am saying is the vote was illegitimate and the electors were illegitimate because the election laws were not followed. That's not a belief, that is a fact. I am not looking at fraud for the 2020 election, though I believe that played a part, I am talking about the illegal altering of election laws by unelected officials. It gave the legislatures a cop-out of turning a blind eye and certifying the votes and sending the electors. Plausible deniability if you will. What is interesting is several states asked that Congress reject their certification after the fact. Honestly, we should have scrapped all of the results, forced election laws to be followed and re-held the election.

Correct and that is the exact thing the US Supreme Court refused to look at concerning PA. And what is bad about PA is the people went through the court system before the election and the PA supreme court ruled against them and when they brought, that, up to the US Supreme Court they would not look at it because it had yet to take place and then after the election they said it was too late.

Fraud by everyone especially the US Supreme Court.

 

[percho]

JR is the one who should be impeached. IMHO

 

[JonC]

Trump would only be responsible if he told them to go riot. Period.

That is a very low standard of responsibility. I disagree, of course. But I hold the Democrats responsible as well (and they did not tell anyone to riot at the Capitol).

Each of us have to decide what comprises character and how one is responsible for their actions. The problem with politics is not only that neither side will take responsibility for their actions, but each side's camp goes along with it.

Trump is responsible for his words, period. He is not responsible for telling them to go riot, I agree there. But he is responsible for continuing the rhetoric and campaigning after the election was concluded. He is responsible for exercising his First Amendment right as an individual at the expense of being the leader he was called to be. So you are wrong that he is not responsible at all, but you are right that Trump was not at least the sole cause of the riots. The DNC is just as responsible, as are those who were there to incite the mob.

 

[JonC]

We have a fundamental disagreement here. I believe their words WERE used to encourage riots and unrest in the streets.

The Democrats DID NOT tell people to riot. Trump DID NOT tell people to riot.

The Democrat's words and actions WERE used to encourage riots during the summer.

Trump's words WERE used to encourage the riot and unrest at the Capital. That is beyond question. Trump supporters who got caught up in the thing stated as much.

I'm sorry brother, but I cannot help but see hypocrisy on all sides (to include yours). The only differenced between the riots this summer related to the DNC and the riot at the Capital was timing. The DNC wanted to use the riots for their advantage (they blamed them on Trump). Trump wanted to use the rally's to his advantage.

Both Trump and the DNC continued the rhetoric, continued the lies, continued the propaganda. But Trump took it too far when he held a rally to his devoted, at the Capital, when the electoral votes were being received (which is largely ceremonial). Had he done the same thing two months earlier then it would have been perfectly acceptable.

But sometimes we have to demand our leaders act as leaders.

 

[Reformed1689]

The Democrats DID NOT tell people to riot. Trump DID NOT tell people to riot.

The Democrat's words and actions WERE used to encourage riots during the summer.

Trump's words WERE used to encourage the riot and unrest at the Capital. That is beyond question. Trump supporters who got caught up in the thing stated as much.

We disagree on what the Democrats did or did not do.

 

[Reformed1689]

Trump wanted to use the rally's to his advantage.

The rally does not equal the riot.

 

[Reformed1689]

But Trump took it too far when he held a rally to his devoted, at the Capital, when the electoral votes were being received (which is largely ceremonial). Had he done the same thing two months earlier then it would have been perfectly acceptable.

It is not mere ceremonial. There is precedent for what he was asking for. So the rally was perfectly appropriate.

 

[percho]

Have any watched PYSOP?

I know it is long but it explains exactly who is responsible for the, "RIOT".

 

[Reformed1689]

He is responsible for exercising his First Amendment right as an individual at the expense of being the leader he was called to be.

See this is an opinion, but I do not agree that this opinion is reality. I believe he was, in fact, being the leader he was called to be when making those statements. More exposing the deep swamp that is in American politics.

 

[Salty]

I think the real concern is when did Trump realizes that the rally became illegal - ie storming the capitol bldg? Should he have twixed? sooner?, should he have went on TV to inform those who stormed to stop?

 

[JonC]

We disagree on what the Democrats did or did not do.

No. We agree on what they did and what they said, just as we agree on what Trump did and said.

We disagree on accountability/ responsibility.

 

[JonC]

See this is an opinion, but I do not agree that this opinion is reality. I believe he was, in fact, being the leader he was called to be when making those statements. More exposing the deep swamp that is in American politics.

I think you are mistaking here. Trump was actively campaigning for a second term (he was not speaking as President but as a candidate for the 2021 Presidency).

He should have taken off the campaign hat and put on the President hat when the election was over.

 

[Salty]

No. We agree on what they did and what they said, just as we agree on what Trump did and said.

We disagree on accountability/ responsibility.

So are you agreeing that you don't agree????

 

[JonC]

The rally does not equal the riot.

I agree. It does not equal the riot. There were several things that came together for the riot (anarchists, DNC propaganda, Trump propaganda, fraud in the state elections, media bias and ignoring issues, "sheeple" on both sides, and Trump's speech after the election was over).