So, what is wrong with Lordship salvation?

[donnA]

The question is how much? and how visible? This is really the crux between the two camps. Lordship advocates(at least ones I have known in person) seem to be watching people looking for a laundry list of things they would like to see a new convert. If they don't see them, they write the person off as not being saved. Thats what is wrong.

I've seen this too and it's too bad. We don't change everything about us the moment we are saved, some changes come more slowly. Our sin is forgiven, but the inclination to sin is still there, as you said the old man remains. This is in my opinion a judgment of the work of God. The work that only God can do. 1John 1:9 is written to Christan's, and it doesn't say if we sin, but when we sin, we will never stop sinning till death. And before someone jumps on it, this is not an excuse for sin, but a fact it is still going to exist. I think the difference is the Christian will desire not to sin, the unsaved won't care.
We can never know whats going on in a persons heart.

I believe Jesus must be our Lord, this is not a test of salvation though. Jesus being Lord to me means I will seek to obey His word, though I will not always be successful. It is my desire to bring all of me under subjection to Him.

These are just my thoughts and don't have to mean anything to anyone else. Nor are they all inclusive of my total thoughts on the topic.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by IfbReformer:


Lets take a young student on a college campus for example:

Lets say I am witnessing to him and I find out he is living with a female student there. I will present to him that he is a sinner and has violate God's commands and one of those is not to commit fornication. If he acknowledges his sin before God and accepts Christ as Savior and Lord(God) he is saved and I will tell him such.

I will also tell him at the same time that God can give him the freedom from his sin, and that God will only bless him when his stops living in this sin with this women. But I will not tell him he must stop sinning(stop living with this women) before Christ will accept him. In fact I will tell him that he can do nothing in his own power until he comes to faith in Christ.

I would also add that he will not be able to grow as he should and become a member of a local Bible believing church until he stops this sin of fornication.

The Lordship advocate on the other hand, would tell this student that Christ will not accept him until he gives up this sin. If he says he does not know how, or that he just can't, then he proves his unwillingness to surrender to Christ.

I am about half way through "Hard to Believe" by MacArthur. He doesn't teach this concept in that book. What he does teach is that one must be willing to give up everything to include his own family. He acknowledges that this is a new direction of life rather than a sudden appearance of moral perfection.

The Lordship advocates position adds something to salvation that God did not add. We cannot clean ourselves up,that why God made a way for us through his son. Certainly Christ empowers us and gives us opportunity to do right, but we still must choose and we do not always make the right choices.

What LS advocate thinks we can clean ourselves up? All I have known give complete credit from predestination to ultimate glorification to God.

Let me give you a quick illustration.

Let's say you and someone you don't know are stranded in a burning building and just before the phones go out, he is told that there is one safe passage out of the building. If you stay, you die. If you go the wrong way, you die.

He is a visitor. You have worked in the building for many years. He tells you the path out... and it doesn't make sense. You object. He insists. You think you know the way to save yourself. He is telling you a way that makes no sense to you at all. Your life depends on the decision...

What determines if you believe the visitor or not? It is what you do that demonstrates your belief or disbelief. Not what you say or even how you feel.

In the same way, genuine belief in Christ as Savior will result in a change in direction. I believe someone can fail significantly after being truly saved... but the direction of a person's life will change and they will not stay in sin.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by IfbReformer:

In fact mostly growing up I probably would have subscribed to the Lordship position without knowing what it was. I was raised in a good Christian Family, went to a IFB church every service.

I accepted Christ when I was 7 years old. I can't remember a time when I did not accept Christ. I just always trusted him and always believed he was the only way.

I used to think I was good church boy, I knew I did some bad things like lying sometimes. But I never really understood what forgiveness was until I was a young adult and got away from the Lord for awhile and did some things I am not proud of.

When I asked God for forgiveness and received it, For the first time in my life I really- really understood what it meant to be forgiven. And this was years after I was saved.

I understood the real potential for sin in my own life, even as a believer. From that moment on I began to see none of us are perfect, and to be careful of saying that no Christian could live this way or that, or do this or that. Why? Because I have been there. I began to see in the scriptures that the forgiveness of God not only extends to those who are unsaved and come to Christ, it continues for those of us who have been in Christ for many years.

What if I had not asked God's forgiveness, or what if wanted it but could not give up my sin? Would I have proven I was never really saved? In the Lordship advocates opinion they would have to say yes!

I have an almost identical testimony to yours. I thank God that He insisted on being my Lord because He was my Savior... Otherwise, I would have undoubtedly continued in the destructive spiral of sin.

 

[C.S. Murphy]

Originally posted by Kiffin:

A common theme of New Testament teaching is Are you Trusting Christ as Your Lord and Savior NOW since a so called conversion experience that does not produce a living faith is irrelevant. A living Faith is Bible faith!

Sorry but much of this reminds me of church of christ doctrine. Once I talked with an elder and we were discussing OSAS. He explained to me that their teaching is that if one dies with unrepentant sin in their life they can lose their salvation. I asked him what if I sat here in your office and told you a lie and then left the building crossed the street and was killed by a truck, would I go to heaven or hell. He thought a moment and said I suppose it depends on whether or not I knew you were lying. It is a stupid illustration but friends you cannot with certainty discern my salvation or lack therof by my actions or words. Thank God I don't have to be judged by men but by Jesus Christ alone. I want to add that my statement still stands, some here seem to have forgotten the lost condition from which they were saved and that they are not sinless now. I understand the way we can look at fruit and see some who are walking closer than others but God accepts repentance and on this I hope we can all agree. I feel the problem here is that some think they have arrived and they can judge others. Paul said he hadn't arrived so how can we honestly think we have. God accepts repentance and if your walk is more perfect than mine good for you, but you are not perfect only forgiven. Concerning Kiffens remarks above, his interpretation of the NT sounds good but how does it compare to Jesus saying nobody can pluck me out of His hand. If I follow his thinking Jesus would be saying "what have you done for me lately" that is not grace my friends and if it is not grace it is works. Sorry but I seem to hear some boasting here.
Murph

 

[Daniel David]

If I can, I would like to point out a few myths about Lordship salvation:

1. All Lordship advocates are 5pt Calvinists.
2. All Lordship advocates believe in limited atonement.
3. Lordship advocates believe you must clean up before you get saved.
4. Lordship advocates don't care about evangelism.
5. All Lordship advocates believe regeneration precedes faith.
6. Lordship advocates require sinless perfection.
7. Lordship advocates believe you can't fall into sin.
8. Lordship advocates are closet catholics.
9. Lordship advocates despise separation from the world.
10. Lordship advocates are Gator fans.
_____

Here is how I deal with each of the above. I know several Lordship advocates that would disagree with me on certain points.

1. I am not a 5pt calvinist.
2. I do not believe in limited atonement as defined by covenant theologians.
3. I do not believe you must clean up to be saved.
4. I care about evangelism. In fact, I am preaching to a group of lost men Tuesday night.
5. I believe faith precedes regeneration.
6. I do not require sinless perfection.
7. I believe you can fall into sin.
8. I DESPISE catholic theology.
9. I teach separation from the world.
10. I am a Seminole fan. Being a gator fan might be the unpardonable sin.

 

[IfbReformer]

Originally posted by Daniel David:
If I can, I would like to point out a few myths about Lordship salvation:

1. All Lordship advocates are 5pt Calvinists.
2. All Lordship advocates believe in limited atonement.
3. Lordship advocates believe you must clean up before you get saved.
4. Lordship advocates don't care about evangelism.
5. All Lordship advocates believe regeneration precedes faith.
6. Lordship advocates require sinless perfection.
7. Lordship advocates believe you can't fall into sin.
8. Lordship advocates are closet catholics.
9. Lordship advocates despise separation from the world.
10. Lordship advocates are Gator fans.
_____

Here is how I deal with each of the above. I know several Lordship advocates that would disagree with me on certain points.

1. I am not a 5pt calvinist.
2. I do not believe in limited atonement as defined by covenant theologians.
3. I do not believe you must clean up to be saved.
4. I care about evangelism. In fact, I am preaching to a group of lost men Tuesday night.
5. I believe faith precedes regeneration.
6. I do not require sinless perfection.
7. I believe you can fall into sin.
8. I DESPISE catholic theology.
9. I teach separation from the world.
10. I am a Seminole fan. Being a gator fan might be the unpardonable sin.

Heres one thats not a myth - and please correct me if I am wrong.

Lordship Advocates believe it is impossible for a Christian to die in a backslidden state.

Although they might have problems with passages like this then:

What about Ananias and Sapphira(Acts 5)? They were Christians who lied to God publicly and God took them home.

What about the Corinthians who fell asleep (died) because they abused the Lord's Supper(1 Cor 11)?

These were Christians who died in a backslidden state.

What about those Christians that "will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames" as Paul tell us.
(1 Corinthians 3:15)

The description in the passage is of a Christian who builds his foundation on Christ(is saved) but does not build properly on it,he will still be saved, but only by fire.

IFBReformer

 

[IfbReformer]

Scott,

Just wanted to zoom in on this statement of yours:

"What LS advocate thinks we can clean ourselves up? All I have known give complete credit from predestination to ultimate glorification to God."

This brings up a good point I forgot about as well. Many Lordship advocates have said to me that they believe Christ does the cleaning up. Regardless though, the believe the cleaning up must take place. Then they throw out this strawman argument or question "Don't you believe God can clean up those he truly saves?"

To that I simply answer, God could have made us all superman and bullet proof, God can do anything he wants. The question is not what God can do, or what we think he should do, but what he does do.

I refuse take a laundry list of items and look at someone who I believe made a genuine heart felt profession of faith and say that person is not saved because they have not fulfilled the requirements on my list.

Jesus said all the work that was required to be saved in John 6:

John 6:28-29(NIV)
"28Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
29Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

God's gift in salvation is not "cheap grace" its "free grace" - praise God.

IFBReformer

 

[Daniel David]

1. Heres one thats not a myth - and please correct me if I am wrong.

2. Lordship Advocates believe it is impossible for a Christian to die in a backslidden state.

3. What about Ananias and Sapphira(Acts 5)? They were Christians who lied to God publicly and God took them home.

4. What about the Corinthians who fell asleep (died) because they abused the Lord's Supper(1 Cor 11)?

5. These were Christians who died in a backslidden state.

6. What about those Christians that "will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames" as Paul tell us.
(1 Corinthians 3:15)

The description in the passage is of a Christian who builds his foundation on Christ(is saved) but does not build properly on it,he will still be saved, but only by fire.

1. Sorry Larry, this one also falls into the category of myth.

Of course, it assumes certain things that we do not agree with.

2. Christians cannot backslide (see the thread started by C.S. Murphy in which I post just about every text on backsliding).

However, many Christians die during a time of disobedience in their life. I don't deny that and don't know of any Lordship felluz that do.

3. Can you point out where in Scripture it says that either party of this couple was saved? Even if they were, I would say that they died as a result of disobedience.

4. Again, they died because they disobeyed God.

5. See No. 2.

6. They are saved people who do not build as well as they should. Much (if not most) of their effort will be for not.

I think Paul was addressing the cheap grace advocates personally. Just kidding.

 

[IfbReformer]

Kiffin,

Your statement:
"It actually is the wrong question. The fact is YOU DID ask God's forgiveness because of the Holy Spirit's indwelling of you. A unconverted person would have cared less about living wrongly. They Holy Spirit will not let Christians apostazize but will bring us back though we may stumble for awhile."

It is one thing to apostazize(this is to deny Christ as Savior) and it is quiet another for a Christian to fall into sin. This is actually one thing I disagree with Hodges and Ryrie on. I believe our faith and trust in Christ is something we can never truly loose in our heart. We may deny Christ in a moment of fear as Peter did, or we may sin or fall into a sinful lifestyle but we can never loose that belief because we are sealed with the Holy Spirit.

I believe that is it very possible for a person who is truly saved to fall into sin and never come out of it before they die. I also believe this person will be miserable because they know what is right like I did. But they may not repent in time before they die, and I will not, nor do the scriptures warrant that I right them off as an unbeliever.

The persaverance spoken of in the Bible, and the endurance to the end spoken of in the Bible, refers to the belief that God stamps on the heart of every child who is his. It does not mean that they will continue in righteous living their whole life and cannot die in a state of backsliddeness.

IFBReformer

 

[Kiffin]

Originally posted by Kiffin:

A common theme of New Testament teaching is Are you Trusting Christ as Your Lord and Savior NOW since a so called conversion experience that does not produce a living faith is irrelevant. A living Faith is Bible faith!


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry but much of this reminds me of church of christ doctrine. Once I talked with an elder and we were discussing OSAS. He explained to me that their teaching is that if one dies with unrepentant sin in their life they can lose their salvation. I asked him what if I sat here in your office and told you a lie and then left the building crossed the street and was killed by a truck, would I go to heaven or hell. He thought a moment and said I suppose it depends on whether or not I knew you were lying. It is a stupid illustration but friends you cannot with certainty discern my salvation or lack therof by my actions or words. Thank God I don't have to be judged by men but by Jesus Christ alone. I want to add that my statement still stands, some here seem to have forgotten the lost condition from which they were saved and that they are not sinless now. I understand the way we can look at fruit and see some who are walking closer than others but God accepts repentance and on this I hope we can all agree. I feel the problem here is that some think they have arrived and they can judge others. Paul said he hadn't arrived so how can we honestly think we have. God accepts repentance and if your walk is more perfect than mine good for you, but you are not perfect only forgiven.

Murph apparently you are not reading my posts nor the Baptist confessions quoted but are putting your own spin on what I said. I would suggest you read more carefully before accusing me of being a Cambellite

You appparently do not understand what LS salvation teaches for

1. No one here is saying Believers must reach sinless perfection. That is a ridiculous accusation that has been refuted again and again.

2. No one here is saying that have arrived as a believer. LS salvation teaches that we never truly arrive until glorification.

Concerning Kiffens remarks above, his interpretation of the NT sounds good but how does it compare to Jesus saying nobody can pluck me out of His hand. If I follow his thinking Jesus would be saying "what have you done for me lately" that is not grace my friends and if it is not grace it is works. Sorry but I seem to hear some boasting here.
Murph

Once again you need to read what has been said previously. I have never stated a believer can lose their salvation. You misrepresent my position because you did not read posts carefully. If you would have read my earlier quotes from the First London and New Hampshire you would have indeed see that I hold to Preservation and Perseverance of all saints and that no child of God can lose their salvation.

Here is the problem and the danger of the logic you used, Murph.

I stated, A common theme of New Testament teaching is Are you Trusting Christ as Your Lord and Savior NOW since a so called conversion experience that does not produce a living faith is irrelevant. A living Faith is Bible faith!

You responded If I follow his thinking Jesus would be saying "what have you done for me lately" that is not grace my friends and if it is not grace it is works. Sorry but I seem to hear some boasting here.

From that response, you apparently are stating Faith is a WORK. FAITH however is not a work but a Gift of God (Eph. 2:8-9). I REPEAT, FAITH IS NOT A WORK! Once Faith is worked in a believer at Salvation, that faih will grow and endure. The 1689 London Confession states,

"And though they may, through the temptation of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins, and for a time continue therein,whereby they incur God's displeasure and grieve His Holy Spirit, come to have their graces and comforts impaired, have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded, hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgements upon themselves, yet shall they renew their repentance and be preserved through faith in Christ Jesus to the end."


FAITH has nothing to do with "what have you done for me lately" but Faith exists in a saint because of the Grace of God. To believe FAITH is "what have you done for me lately" implies it is a Work. Faith is the Work of Grace.

Not only does God completely justify and someday will glorify the saint but it is the Grace of God that sanctifies the saints and the works that proceed from Faith are in the end because of the Grace of God that works in saints. I hope you will read more careful and understand the subject better in the future rather than make misrepresentations in that this has been a civil debate among most here, so far.

 

[IfbReformer]

Here is another observation of the Lordship movement:

I have met many good men of God(on this forum and off it) that believe in the LS position.

I think where they have gone wrong is in taking up an offense for God. They are upset at Christians not living up to their potential. They are upset at Christians in churches not serving as they should.

They think to themselves, how could anyone not live as I do for the Lord after he has done so much for me and them?

Then they come to this conclusion - "they can't be Christians" and they write off all these people they are upset at as unsaved.

But God does not need us to take up an offense for him, he knows who are his, we do not always know that. I do not claim that every person who professes the name of Christ is truly a believer. But if they do claim Christ as their savior, I cannot take out my laundry list and go down it to determine if I as a man can tell if they are saved.

Lordship advocates don't want to leave these things in the Lord's hands, they want to pass judgment here and now - but like I said, God knows who are his.

Yes we need to discipline people who are members of churches and claim Christ and live in open sin. Yes it is a privaledge to serve in the church, and only those who are faithful should be allowed to serve. But we have not Biblical warrant to right off these same people that we discipline as unsaved - only God knows that.

IFBReformer

 

[Daniel David]

Larry, that is why I am a 'means' kinda guy.

I think the harsh examination of the life is unfortunate.

Doctrine on the other hand, they are fair game, as even Paul called them dogs.

 

[IfbReformer]

Kiffen,

Your statement:
"1. No one here is saying Believers must reach sinless perfection. That is a ridiculous accusation that has been refuted again and again.

2. No one here is saying that have arrived as a believer. LS salvation teaches that we never truly arrive until glorification."

You are right Kiffen that LS don't teach sinless perfection. I would say it is more like you teach 'almost sinless perfection'. Because as John MacArthur says you can have "moments" of failure - but failure could never be the pattern of a true believers life in his estimation.

What then does he do with Solomon? Solomon lived a very immoral life and he was a believer, yes it seems that he repented at the end, but certainly his was life was not a "pattern" of righteous living.

IFBReformer

 

[Kiffin]

IFBReformer,

Once again I appreciate the tone of your arguments and your view is much more balanced than that of Ryrie and others. You are correct there is a differance between apostazize(this is to deny Christ as Savior) and it is quiet another for a Christian to fall into sin. The Key Teaching is that Believers will manifest fruit and that a sinful, godless lifestyle will not be the pattern of a believer. I believe any of us could fall into sin but I also believe because of the Grace of God and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, we will return back to the right way.

Well, I will be away fror 2 weeks on vacation, so ya'll can pound on me now.

 

[Daniel David]

Larry, this is how sanctification works:

God directs the life of the believer. If and when the believer falls into sin, the Lord is working on other areas, or perhaps even creating consequences on the current action so that the believer won't want to go there again.

So even if the believer's sanctification slows down, it doesn't stop, and it NEVER goes backwards.

 

[IfbReformer]

Here is another way to look at how the differing views see the issues regarding the security of the believer's salvation.

If a person professed faith in Christ but does not pursue a righteous life after that here is how it is explained by the various schools of thought:

Catholic:
The person will not be saved.
END RESULT: The person goes to hell.

Means of Salvation and Lordship Salvation Views:
The person was never saved.
END RESULT: The person goes to hell.

Loss of Salvation View(Arminian, Holiness, Charismatic):
The person was saved and lost their salvation.
END RESULT: The person goes to hell.

Loss of Rewards, Eternal Security, Free Grace or as its opponents lovingly call it "Easybelievism" View:
The person may still be saved and they have chosen to reject the prodding of the Holy Spirit and waste their life. They loose the rewards they could have had.
END RESULT:The person goes to heaven

So really no matter how you spin it, there are really only two sides of this debate, they just explain things differently, but there are only two end results here.

IFBReformer

 

[Daniel David]

Does not the N.T. command us to examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith?

Well, what do you do if you don't think you are?

Cheap grace advocates:
Don't worry about it. You really are saved, you are just gunna miss out on some rewards.

Means and Lordship views:
It isn't too late yet. Repent and trust Christ. Don't deceive yourself into hell.

Larry, what do you do with Romans 4, which teaches that assurance is an undeniable aspect of salvation?

 

[Kiffin]

IFB,

Let mev respond before my 2 week exile from here.

You stated,

You are right Kiffen that LS don't teach sinless perfection. I would say it is more like you teach 'almost sinless perfection'. Because as John MacArthur says you can have "moments" of failure - but failure could never be the pattern of a true believers life in his estimation.

Incorrect. MacArthur admits that believers can and will have sinful habits though we must be carefull in using MacArthur only for LS salvation and would be better to use Baptist and Reformed Confessions (1s and Second London Baptist, New Hampshire Confession, Westminister). LS Salvation advocates believe that we all commit sins everyday and will until we die because of our unredeemed flesh. Sinless perfection view is a Holiness Arminian Wesleyan View.

What then does he do with Solomon? Solomon lived a very immoral life and he was a believer, yes it seems that he repented at the end, but certainly his was life was not a "pattern" of righteous living.

Good Question. It might be debated whether his life was or was not a "pattern" of righteous living. Solomon did many good things and many evil things and many believe Ecclesiates is his repentance. It is I believe however dangerous to use Old Testament saints in the Lordship Debate simply because they lacked the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which all New Testament saints have.

 

[C.S. Murphy]

Originally posted by Kiffin:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> What then does he do with Solomon? Solomon lived a very immoral life and he was a believer, yes it seems that he repented at the end, but certainly his was life was not a "pattern" of righteous living.

Good Question. It might be debated whether his life was or was not a "pattern" of righteous living. Solomon did many good things and many evil things and many believe Ecclesiates is his repentance. </font>[/QUOTE]Solomon while an OT saint is a very good picture of a sinner saved by grace. Thankfully God does not weigh our good deeds against our bad. Sadly some men seem to do so. Kiffen I am sorry if I am not paying close enough attention to your posting, I am a little slow maybe try typing slower. I may be wrong but I still sense some boasting here.
Murph

 

[IfbReformer]

Originally posted by Daniel David:
Does not the N.T. command us to examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith?

Well, what do you do if you don't think you are?

Cheap grace advocates:
Don't worry about it. You really are saved, you are just gunna miss out on some rewards.

Means and Lordship views:
It isn't too late yet. Repent and trust Christ. Don't deceive yourself into hell.

Larry, what do you do with Romans 4, which teaches that assurance is an undeniable aspect of salvation?

Daniel,

This is a good question, how would I as a Free Grace proponent help this person who is doubting their salvation?

I would ask them why? I would ask them if they have and are placing their faith and trust in Christ as their savior. If they answer that they have and are, but are worried that because of a repetitous sin in their life that God will not save them or they are not saved I would tell them thats not true.

You see Daniel, most people I have ran into in my life who doubt their salvation doubt it because they have a sin, or couple of sins they have never had victory over. While LS advocates will tell the person they probably were never saved, I will tell them if I think they understand the Gospel and have accepted Christ that they are saved but have not totally given that sin to the Lord. They need his power to overcome it, and they have to stop trying to do things in their own power.

I would tell them that they need to continue to confess their sin before God, and lean on his power and strength to overcome it. Some people have been given the wrong idea that unless you think you have totally kicked whatever you sin is, its useless to confess and ask forgiveness because God won't forgive you. Thats is a lie from the pit of hell.

I would never tell a person not to worry about their sin. But the reasons are different than yours. My reason for them to worry about their sin is that God will discipline them eventually. That is the negative reason, the postive reason is that they are missing out on the joy they can have in this life, before the next, if they would only give their sin to the Lord.

You say you would tell a person who is doubting their salvation to "Repent and trust Christ. Don't deceive yourself into hell." You sound almost word for word with a charismatic preacher I used to work with. If you don't have you sins confessed and forgiven on a daily basis - you go to hell. Certainly you will try an explain it differently than he does, but as I said in an earlier post, the end result is the same.

Why would someone who has trusted Christ as Lord and Savior, even one who is dealing with a repetitive sin in their life, have to repent as to go to hell? Have they not passed(past tense) from death to life as the scriptures say? Isn't their no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus? Or is their still the possibility?

Daniel, I understand your heart, and I know you are not teaching sinless perfection. Yet the Means Group(you) and the LS group have effectively shattered the doctrine of assurance of salvation.

Here is the problem, you base our assurance of salvation on subjective things like how we behave after salvation and on the objective truth that Christ is our guarentee and will keep us to the end. The problem is, no matter how Schreiner says, the two don't mix.

Your house can't be built on the rock and the sand, if part of the house(assurance) is built on the rock(Christ), and part of the house(assurance) is built on the sand(subjective behavior) then the house will not stand. It must be all the rock or their is no assurance.

IFBReformer