IfbReformer
New Member
Kiffen,
Your Statement:
"Incorrect. MacArthur admits that believers can and will have sinful habits though we must be carefull in using MacArthur only for LS salvation and would be better to use Baptist and Reformed Confessions (1s and Second London Baptist, New Hampshire Confession, Westminister). LS Salvation advocates believe that we all commit sins everyday and will until we die because of our unredeemed flesh. Sinless perfection view is a Holiness Arminian Wesleyan View."
Kiffen,
I know you going on vacation, so I will try not to pounce on you here. I just wanted to acknowledge that I have read(many times) the confessions that you have spoken of. I do realize that both the General Baptists(Arminian) and Particular Baptists(Calvinists) believed that if someone fell into sin after salvation and does not repent before they die they go to hell.
The General Baptists just explained it as the Arminians did that the person was saved, but lose their salvation due to unrepentant sin.
The Particular Baptists explained it as the person was never truly saved, because a truly saved person could not die in a backslidden state. So in this way LS advocates are very close to the Historic Baptist tradition(specifically the particular Baptists).
Having said that, just becauses Baptists in the past thought that way that does not make them right. I hold no tradition as sacred except the Word of God(I am not saying that you do either, but appealing to the historic belief can sometimes give people that impression).
Here is what I believe happened. We know from the Scriptures that even while the Apostles were alive and still writing the Scriptures false doctrine and practices had krept into the church.
It would be nieve to think that false doctrine would'nt have flooded in after they died(which it did) and then you have the Catholic church forming a few hundred years later with all this false doctrine that had been accumulated.
I believe the true Gospel has always been out there from the time of Christ, but many times it had rubble all over the top if it. Christians throughout the years have had to clear that rubble to get down to the purest form of the Gospel.
I have read much on the reformation, and while I rejoice that a heap of "rubble" was removed by great reformers like Calvin and Luther, they did not remove all of it.
It was not until in the last 150 years or so, that the Gospel was completely clear of the rubble that had been placed on it.
You see the reformers knew and understood that in their day the church was interwoven in society. The church was what helped keep the peace to a certain extent. If men did not feel that they would perish and go to hell for their sins, society would run wild.
That is why it would have been untenable to speak, even in their own mind to say that salvation by grace through faith eliminates works from the equation, that our works after salvation are for rewards and blessings in this life alone. That they are pleasing to God as token of our love and gratitude.
They had to keep them in the equation, but they simply removed them from being meritorious as the Catholic church stated they were. The General Baptist said works maintained your salvation. The Particular Baptists said works prove your salvation. Unfortuneatly they could not see past their time and culture.
That is why I rejoice to live the age I do, even with seeing the world becoming more and more evil each day. You know why? The gloves are off, and the true Gospel can be shouted from the hill tops. There are no govermental or cultural concerns to hold it back, we can preach the true, free Gospel of Christ.
Do we still preach against sin? Absolutely. Too many churches have stopped preaching against sin and they should be ashamed. But do we tell people that living as Christ would have them in a God honoring fashion is necessary to maintain or prove their salvation? Absolutely no. It is love for Christ that compels us, not fear.
IFBReformer
Your Statement:
"Incorrect. MacArthur admits that believers can and will have sinful habits though we must be carefull in using MacArthur only for LS salvation and would be better to use Baptist and Reformed Confessions (1s and Second London Baptist, New Hampshire Confession, Westminister). LS Salvation advocates believe that we all commit sins everyday and will until we die because of our unredeemed flesh. Sinless perfection view is a Holiness Arminian Wesleyan View."
Kiffen,
I know you going on vacation, so I will try not to pounce on you here. I just wanted to acknowledge that I have read(many times) the confessions that you have spoken of. I do realize that both the General Baptists(Arminian) and Particular Baptists(Calvinists) believed that if someone fell into sin after salvation and does not repent before they die they go to hell.
The General Baptists just explained it as the Arminians did that the person was saved, but lose their salvation due to unrepentant sin.
The Particular Baptists explained it as the person was never truly saved, because a truly saved person could not die in a backslidden state. So in this way LS advocates are very close to the Historic Baptist tradition(specifically the particular Baptists).
Having said that, just becauses Baptists in the past thought that way that does not make them right. I hold no tradition as sacred except the Word of God(I am not saying that you do either, but appealing to the historic belief can sometimes give people that impression).
Here is what I believe happened. We know from the Scriptures that even while the Apostles were alive and still writing the Scriptures false doctrine and practices had krept into the church.
It would be nieve to think that false doctrine would'nt have flooded in after they died(which it did) and then you have the Catholic church forming a few hundred years later with all this false doctrine that had been accumulated.
I believe the true Gospel has always been out there from the time of Christ, but many times it had rubble all over the top if it. Christians throughout the years have had to clear that rubble to get down to the purest form of the Gospel.
I have read much on the reformation, and while I rejoice that a heap of "rubble" was removed by great reformers like Calvin and Luther, they did not remove all of it.
It was not until in the last 150 years or so, that the Gospel was completely clear of the rubble that had been placed on it.
You see the reformers knew and understood that in their day the church was interwoven in society. The church was what helped keep the peace to a certain extent. If men did not feel that they would perish and go to hell for their sins, society would run wild.
That is why it would have been untenable to speak, even in their own mind to say that salvation by grace through faith eliminates works from the equation, that our works after salvation are for rewards and blessings in this life alone. That they are pleasing to God as token of our love and gratitude.
They had to keep them in the equation, but they simply removed them from being meritorious as the Catholic church stated they were. The General Baptist said works maintained your salvation. The Particular Baptists said works prove your salvation. Unfortuneatly they could not see past their time and culture.
That is why I rejoice to live the age I do, even with seeing the world becoming more and more evil each day. You know why? The gloves are off, and the true Gospel can be shouted from the hill tops. There are no govermental or cultural concerns to hold it back, we can preach the true, free Gospel of Christ.
Do we still preach against sin? Absolutely. Too many churches have stopped preaching against sin and they should be ashamed. But do we tell people that living as Christ would have them in a God honoring fashion is necessary to maintain or prove their salvation? Absolutely no. It is love for Christ that compels us, not fear.
IFBReformer
