So, what is wrong with Lordship salvation?

[Daniel David]

Murph, I will do my best on this, as it makes perfect sense to me.

Imagine a chart with 100 rows.

Each row equals a particular sin and is filled in completely black.

The goal is Christ.

Now, when you get saved, you start the race toward Christ. As you grow, you are slowly repelling the black.

Using the anger problem again:

You have an anger problem. You learn from the Scriptures that your problem is wrong, and you desire to glorify God. As you grow, you start recognizing obvious areas of your anger sin. You yell at your children, you discipline in anger, you are a person of revenge, etc.

As you continue to grow, you start overcoming those sins, SO THAT THEY ARE NOT AS MUCH AS A TEMPTATION AS THEY WERE PREVIOUSLY. You are still capable of those sins, but you do not do them as often.

Now, as you continue to grow, you start recognizing that your anger sin has other forms that you were previously blind to. You become cold hearted when your wife doesn't do _________ (fill in the blank). Your boss didn't give you the raise you thought you deserved. On and on. You always had those other problems, but you were blind to them. The previous problems aren't as much a temptation anymore, but now you have seen another realm to deal with.

The Holy Spirit is leading you toward Christlikeness. The more you grow, the more sin you repel.

You don't go backwards, because the roots of that particular sin have not been completely conquered. They won't be until we meet the Lord, either through death or the rapture.

The sin problem has very long tenticles. Whether you hate (inward sin), or harshly discipline your children (outward sin), it is still an anger problem. Both are manifestations of the same sin.

There is no going backwards.

 

[Daniel David]

Okay, I have provided all the Scripture here. I posted about how the Scriptures use the term 'backsliding'. I posted the theology behind us always moving forward. I posted the biblical usage of 'carnal'. I posted examples for clarity sake. I post a text which says we are always moving forward.

If there are no further questions, I will rest my case.

No one has been able to refute what I have put. I really do mean this humbly. I used to believe like many of you. How do you continue to believe that though in light of all the evidence? My study of the Scriptures is what changed my mind (before I became persuaded of calvinism by the way).

 

[Daniel David]

Could someone who disagrees with me please give the interpretation of Romans 8:14?

 

[C.S. Murphy]

Originally posted by Daniel David:
Could someone who disagrees with me please give the interpretation of Romans 8:14?

Thanks for the reply Daniel, as to Romans 8:14 I believe that as Christians we are led by the Spirit but I also believe that we can still veer off the path. IMO to do so one doesn't lose their salvation. I also don't believe that anyone has ever successfully followed the spirits direction completely with the exception of Christ of course.
Murph

 

[Jim1999]

There is an old saying, "If Jesus is not Lord of all, He is not Lord at all." This is indicative of the progression toward total holiness in the presence of God, or perseverance, an upward struggle toward holiness.

Yes, indeed, man can stumble along the way. We have plenty of scriptures exhorting us to continue, to climb, to always look up for help...These would, in essence, be meaningless if we could not stumble along the way. This backsliding has nothing to do with our salvation, which is secure, not in what we have done, but in what the Christ has done.

Let us spend more time climbing the ladder to perfection, than being concerned about how far we can backslide before...............whatever.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[superdave]

I would agree with many on this thread. Hard Believism it is for me I guess

I would say that those who do not persevere, were never possessors of true saving faith.

Many will say in that day "Lord, Lord" and hear the dreaded words, "depart from me"

I am not adding anything to salvation, it is a work of God, using the Spirit to impart spiritual life to the spiritually dead. But clearly someone whose life is not changed by their faith at least needs to evaluate the quality of their "faith" Many people have been guilted falsly into making a decision, that is not to be confused with true repentance and conversion.

 

[JGrubbs]

Can someone watch Mel Gibson's "The Passion", and "confess with their mouth", that they believe the events in the movie really did happen and by doing that become a Christian?

2 Corinthians 7:10 says, "For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death."

I was raised in church, and repeated the "sinner's prayer" many times at VBS, Sunday School, Summer Camp, etc. But, I believe that I did not become a Christian untill I was 17 years old and had "godly sorrow" and true repentance of my sins, and prayed and asked Jesus Christ to be the Lord of my life.

I have messed up since then, I don't think God is calling anyone to be perfect, but I do know that I have the Holy Spirit living in me, and when I do mess up I feel His conviction, and notice a break in my fellowship with the Lord.

 

[C.S. Murphy]

Originally posted by NetPublicist:
but I do know that I have the Holy Spirit living in me, and when I do mess up I feel His conviction, and notice a break in my fellowship with the Lord.

Welcome to the forum NetPublicist. good to have you with us.
Murph

 

[HankD]

The question of this thread is

So, what is wrong about Lordship salvation?

For years after hearing about the various definitions of LS, I felt (IMO) that there were flaws in the logic behind some of the supporting shibboleths such as “easy believism”.

Believing in Jesus Christ is the easiest thing I know how to do.

The crucifixion and mortification of the flesh is the difficult part.

Also I saw that in the Scriptures those who used the koine emphasis of repetition “Lord, Lord” who professed Him to be Lord but were in fact not even saved.

Why? “I never knew you”.

There is a song that has as it’s main phrase “looking for love in all the wrong places”.

So, that is what’s wrong (IMO) with the common idea of Lordship salvation so-called. Love, it doesn’t seem to enter into the LS equation. Looking at repentance (IMO) is looking at the wrong thing as scriptural as it indeed is.

If I am saved (and I am) then I am born of God and the love of the Father is in me. If the love of the Father is in me I love His Son with the supernatural love (agape) which has been infused into me by the Father.
He is the constant object of my thoughts and I want to please Him because it is now my nature to do so.

The tares are within the kingdom of God (by location) and they do “many wonderful works” but they do not love Him, they know “about” Him and have a kind of affection for Him, but do not know Him personally and have not realized what He has done for them. Hence “I never knew you”.

Humanly speaking, the tares (IMO) are those who have never had an enlightened view of Him even as Savior and are soothing their convicted hearts of sin by substituting their church activity for the work of His blood atonement. God knows.

So, the answer is love (or the absence thereof).

Those who love (agape) Him see Him not only as Savior but as “my Lord and my God” as well.
Those who are merely religious bring to Him the bloodless sacrifice of “church activity”.

And yet He calls to them:

Revelation 3
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches

1 John 5
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

 

[fcs25]

What's wrong with lordship salvation?It requires you to earn your salvation by your works and that is not the definition of a free gift.It is not biblical in the sense of God granting[giving] you eternal life.All that is required is to believe in the gospel message as proclaimed by both Paul and John.You put your entire trust in Christ and in his finished work on the cross for your salvation....nothing more will save you.

 

[JGrubbs]

Originally posted by fcs25:
What's wrong with lordship salvation?It requires you to earn your salvation by your works and that is not the definition of a free gift.It is not biblical in the sense of God granting[giving] you eternal life.All that is required is to believe in the gospel message as proclaimed by both Paul and John.You put your entire trust in Christ and in his finished work on the cross for your salvation....nothing more will save you.

I guess it depends on your deffinition of lordship salvation. I don't believe that anyone can get saved by simply believing that Jesus was God's son and that He died and rose again for their sins. A head belief is just knowledge.

I believe salvation happens when somoene has that belief and then in repenting of their sins, puts their faith and trust in what Jesus did on the cross to save them from their sins, and by accepting this FREE gift, they make Him their Lord and Saviour.

 

[Daniel David]

Originally posted by fcs25:
What's wrong with lordship salvation?It requires you to earn your salvation by your works and that is not the definition of a free gift.It is not biblical in the sense of God granting[giving] you eternal life.All that is required is to believe in the gospel message as proclaimed by both Paul and John.You put your entire trust in Christ and in his finished work on the cross for your salvation....nothing more will save you.

I recommend you studying what LS actually is instead of getting your info from webpages that don't know what they are talking about.

Requirement for salvation: repent and believe.

Without either, salvation is spurious.

 

[HankD]

Might I offer this possibility:

Going from the state of unbelief to belief IS "repentance".

HankD

 

[vaspers]

No going from unbelief to belief is most definitely not "repentance." It's called belief system modification. Repent means deep anguish and sorrow for offending God's laws, for treason against God's Rulership through sin and selfishness. If you have no clear idea on how horrible sin and selfishness is, there is no repentance. John the Baptist told pharisees to go away and show the fruits of repentance, not just "I changed my mind. I believe it now." Repentance is a revolution in the heart, not a simple shift in thoughts. Not to quibble over semantics, but casual conversion is not what Jesus or JtheB or Paul had in mind. II Corinthians 7:9,10 "godly sorrow worketh repentance." Wanting to "go to heaven" is weak, but good. Wanting to "be set free" from the penalty and slavery of sin is better attitude for seeking salvation by grace through faith in Christ. Daniel David, my only question to you is why a Christian would add a secondary human, "Calvinist" "Wesleyan" "John Haggeeist" "Spurgeonite" "Finneyite" "Mennonite" "Augustinian" when Apostle Paul said Do Not say "I am of Apollo" "I follow Cephas" "I am disciple of Paul" in I Corinthians 1:12. This is a very clear teaching. But don't think I'm critical of you, dear brother, you stand firmly for Biblical accuracy and that is soooooo rare today. I'm in awe of your sincere devotion. Keep up the good fight dear brother: I'm right next to you (by God's grace and mercy) cheering you on!

 

[JGrubbs]

Originally posted by HankD:
Might I offer this possibility:

Going from the state of unbelief to belief IS "repentance".

HankD

If you were driving down the road, and the person in the passenger seat asked you to turn at the next light, they would be asking you to change direction. Repentance is a change in direction, its turning from your sin and yourself and putting your faith in Jesus Christ. There are many people who have a belief about Jesus, but are not willing or ready to turn away from their sin and their self and "be crucified with Christ". Dietrich Bonhoeffer once said, "When Christ calls a man, he bids him come and die."

 

[HankD]

When I believed on Christ turning from sin was part of the package. But no one told me I had to turn from sin. It was an intuitive thing (no doubt from the Word and Spirit of God) when I was freed from sin. Why after being freed from sin, death and destruction could I possibly want to go back to my former slave-master?

I guess the essence of my problem with LS is why does any Christian need to be convinced that Jesus Christ is Lord of all. Still, I don't like the phrase "Lordship salvation" and the implications of it and I'm not exactly sure why. Maybe it is the delivery method and duplicitous lives of some of those who proclaim it.

One thing is for sure Jesus Christ is Lord of all and one day all will confess it.

Philippians 2:9-11
Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Proverbs 16:4
The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

HankD

 

[JGrubbs]

Originally posted by HankD:
When I believed on Christ turning from sin was part of the package. But no one told me I had to turn from sin. It was an intuitive thing (no doubt from the Word and Spirit of God) when I was freed from sin. Why after being freed from sin, death and destruction could I possibly want to go back to my former slave-master?

When you believe on Christ, someone did tell you you had to turn from your sin, that someone was the Holy Spirit. I have never called what I believe "Lordship Salvation". I just call it salvation. Admiting I'm a sinner, and that because of my sin I can not enter heaven and believing that Jesus paid the price for my sins, and accepting that gift to save me. Notice the Repentence involved with the belief.

What if someone who is living in sin, knows with a head knowledge that Jesus is God's son and that He died for their sins, but they don't care. They choose to continue in their sin, in spite of their belief. Can they call themselves a Christian because they believe, yet have not repented of their sins?

 

[HankD]

When you believe on Christ, someone did tell you you had to turn from your sin, that someone was the Holy Spirit. I have never called what I believe "Lordship Salvation". I just call it salvation.

Yes, of course, being born of the Spirit, we communicate. I'll leave it there.
Semantics.

What if someone who is living in sin, knows with a head knowledge that Jesus is God's son and that He died for their sins, but they don't care. They choose to continue in their sin, in spite of their belief. Can they call themselves a Christian because they believe, yet have not repented of their sins?

Yes, I would say that it is possible but they are probably not long for this world if they do not repent.

Jesus warned the church in Thyatira:
Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

Paul warned the Corinthians:
1 Corinthians 11: 30-32
For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world

So, if there is long standing sin without repentance and no subsequent chastisement:

NKJV But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.

HankD