So... where is heaven?

[Yeshua1]

In another thread, there is a discussion of a book that alleges that the author "woke up in heaven" and was allowed/sent back to this type of life to testify about it. There's no shortage of these books out there, and one of them, "Heaven is For Real" is apparently being made into a motion picture based on a big advertising cutout I saw at a theater recently.

I give very little credence to these types of stories for lots of reasons, primarily theological, but they all beg the question:

Where is heaven?

In other words, what is the location of heaven? Is it somewhere far away or it is present with us, beyond our senses, just like God is with us, often beyond our senses unless He makes Himself manifest to us in some way.

If heaven is with us, that would explain the "great cloud of witnesses" that can see God's perfect will being worked out throughout the free will of humankind and His direct actions.

Any thoughts?

the highest dimension God created!

 

[OldRegular]

In another thread, there is a discussion of a book that alleges that the author "woke up in heaven" and was allowed/sent back to this type of life to testify about it. There's no shortage of these books out there, and one of them, "Heaven is For Real" is apparently being made into a motion picture based on a big advertising cutout I saw at a theater recently.

I give very little credence to these types of stories for lots of reasons, primarily theological, but they all beg the question:

Where is heaven?

In other words, what is the location of heaven? Is it somewhere far away or it is present with us, beyond our senses, just like God is with us, often beyond our senses unless He makes Himself manifest to us in some way.

If heaven is with us, that would explain the "great cloud of witnesses" that can see God's perfect will being worked out throughout the free will of humankind and His direct actions.

Any thoughts?

Try Revelation 4 & 5 and then Revelation 21 & 22!

 

[Greektim]

Since you seem to have not done a systematic study of all the places heaven, heavens and paradise are used in scripture, you have little basis to question the validity of my analysis.

Another aspect is when do we enter the heavenly. When God transfers us spiritually from the realm of darkness into the kingdom of His Son, we who are "in Him" are seated with Him in the heavenly or spiritual realm of God. See Ephesians 1:3 and 2:6.

Dude... I am trying to give you a little levity. Can you return the favor? I at least allow for the possibility that you are right (once holding your view strictly). I just wondered if you could chapter and verse the place that mentions the first and second heavens as the first and second heavens. That's all. What? You can't do that? Hmmmm. The study I have done is on the temple. And I am fairly confident knowing the background Paul is coming out of and using that he was influenced by 2nd temple Judaism which was influenced by a 3 stage understanding of the temple.

Here is another issue that I take odds with in your view. Greek and Hebrew did not have a seperate word for "sky" and "heaven" like we do. Nor did they have an interstellar understanding as we do. So I don't know if they could look up and see 2 different skies, the first heaven and the second heaven. Passage that talk about the heavens are just a way of referring to the sky, most of the time. Some times, the plural "heavens" is used of the abode of God. So there is not a hard and fast rule (i.e. systematization) of heaven in the Bible. But that is largely due to the fact that the Bible was not written by Westerners like you and me who systematize and linearize everything.

Theologically speaking, the Bible presents the abode of God as the true inner sanctuary/temple to which the earthly tabernacle/temple was patterned after. So if God's abode is a temple, wouldn't it stand to reason that our understanding of God's abode would be related to our understanding of a temple. Therefore, a 3rd heaven is just an influence from standard temple views seen throughout Scripture, starting at the Gardent/temple to Mt. Sinaii's 3 stages of the people, the 70, and Moses to the Tabernacle w/ Israel outside the tent, the priests inside, and the most holy place, and so on and etc.

 

[quantumfaith]

Dude... I am trying to give you a little levity. Can you return the favor? I at least allow for the possibility that you are right (once holding your view strictly). I just wondered if you could chapter and verse the place that mentions the first and second heavens as the first and second heavens. That's all. What? You can't do that? Hmmmm. The study I have done is on the temple. And I am fairly confident knowing the background Paul is coming out of and using that he was influenced by 2nd temple Judaism which was influenced by a 3 stage understanding of the temple.

Here is another issue that I take odds with in your view. Greek and Hebrew did not have a seperate word for "sky" and "heaven" like we do. Nor did they have an interstellar understanding as we do. So I don't know if they could look up and see 2 different skies, the first heaven and the second heaven. Passage that talk about the heavens are just a way of referring to the sky, most of the time. Some times, the plural "heavens" is used of the abode of God. So there is not a hard and fast rule (i.e. systematization) of heaven in the Bible. But that is largely due to the fact that the Bible was not written by Westerners like you and me who systematize and linearize everything.

Theologically speaking, the Bible presents the abode of God as the true inner sanctuary/temple to which the earthly tabernacle/temple was patterned after. So if God's abode is a temple, wouldn't it stand to reason that our understanding of God's abode would be related to our understanding of a temple. Therefore, a 3rd heaven is just an influence from standard temple views seen throughout Scripture, starting at the Gardent/temple to Mt. Sinaii's 3 stages of the people, the 70, and Moses to the Tabernacle w/ Israel outside the tent, the priests inside, and the most holy place, and so on and etc.

Kudos, I think very few around here REALLY understand this principle.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Here is another issue that I take odds with in your view. Greek and Hebrew did not have a seperate word for "sky" and "heaven" like we do. Nor did they have an interstellar understanding as we do.

I haven't read Van's post, so I'm not sure this is on point. I agree with your first statement. The Greek ouranos is translated both "sky" and "heaven" in the Bible. But you say they had no interstellar understanding, and that simply isn't true. The Jews received the science of the Persians both during captivity and afterwards, and the Persians had an intimate understanding of near-earth space, out to Saturn, which they, and the Romans too, for that matter, understood as a "planet" rather than a "star."

So I don't know if they could look up and see 2 different skies, the first heaven and the second heaven. Passage that talk about the heavens are just a way of referring to the sky, most of the time. Some times, the plural "heavens" is used of the abode of God. So there is not a hard and fast rule (i.e. systematization) of heaven in the Bible. But that is largely due to the fact that the Bible was not written by Westerners like you and me who systematize and linearize everything.

Though somewhat agreeing with this, it is obvious from Paul's writing in 2 Corinthians 12:2 of being "caught up" to the third heaven that he had an understanding of three separate "heavens", the sky, interstellar space, and God's abode. This dates back all the way to Moses.

The First Heaven: Earth Atmosphere

Deuteronomy 11, (NASB)
17 Then the LORD's anger will burn against you, and He will shut the heavens so that it will not rain and the ground will yield no produce....

Deuteronomy 28
12 The LORD will open the heavens, the storehouse of His bounty, to send rain on your land in season and to bless all the work of your hands.

Judges 5
4 O LORD, when You went out from Seir, when You marched from the land of Edom, the earth shook, the heavens poured, the clouds poured down water.

Acts 14
17 Yet He has not left himself without testimony: He has shown kindness by giving you rain from heaven and crops in their seasons ...

The Second Heaven: Interstellar Space

Psalm 19
4 In the heavens He has pitched a tent for the sun...
---
6 It rises at one end of the heavens and makes its circuit to the other ...

Jeremiah 8
2 They will be exposed to the sun and the moon and all the stars of the heavens which they have loved and served ...

Isaiah 13
10 The stars of heaven and their constellations will not show their light.

The Third Heaven: God's Dwelling Place

1 Kings 8
30 Then hear from heaven, Your dwelling place... [[Note: This phrase is repeated numerous tiimes in the following verses]

Psalm 2
4 The One enthroned in heaven laughs;
The LORD scoffs at them.

Matthew 5
16 In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.

The highest heaven: The third heaven is indicated by the reference to the Throne of God being the highest heaven

1 Kings 8
27 But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain You.

Deut. 10
14 To the LORD your God belong the heavens, even the highest heavens, the earth and everything in it.
​

Theologically speaking, the Bible presents the abode of God as the true inner sanctuary/temple to which the earthly tabernacle/temple was patterned after. So if God's abode is a temple, wouldn't it stand to reason that our understanding of God's abode would be related to our understanding of a temple. Therefore, a 3rd heaven is just an influence from standard temple views seen throughout Scripture, starting at the Gardent/temple to Mt. Sinaii's 3 stages of the people, the 70, and Moses to the Tabernacle w/ Israel outside the tent, the priests inside, and the most holy place, and so on and etc.

While the first sentence in that portion of the post is accurate, the Temple of God in heaven is essential to the understanding of heaven. As we've seen from the many verses I've posted, the Jews had an intimate understanding of the nuances of heaven, and the Temple most assuredly exists there, but it is in heaven, not heaven itself.

 

[Van]

Yes, of course you would have to have no understanding of the cultural framework of the authors of scripture to conclude a first and second heaven might be in the mind of the author who writes of the third heaven.

And of course no one would have any idea of the view that a dome, an inverted brass bowl has been beaten out to enclose the heavens including the stars and birds.

Naturally, lets assume everyone else has no idea, because we are know-it-all blowhards.

 

[preachinjesus]

PJ, the words of Christ when he tells us that he is going to prepare a place for us, what exactly does that mean? Why would he need to "prepare" a place?

I think its a covenantal preparation as well as an eschatological statement.

 

[Van]

Hi QF, you asked a thoughtful question. God, who can create out of nothing, anything imaginable, would not need time to prepare or construct an abode or home in the spiritual realm.

So, just what is the actual idea?

 

[saturneptune]

It's certainly not here. Jesus said He was going to prepare a place for us, and when He comes back, He will take us there. Now, the "there" is where? Up above?

Where is heaven? Not far from you brother, just go across the Kentucky border.

 

[Van]

Food for Thought

Where do we go spiritually if God credits our faith as righteousness? If that is the heavenly place Jesus will go to prepare, could that trip include the cross?

 

[saturneptune]

Hi QF, you asked a thoughtful question. God, who can create out of nothing, anything imaginable, would not need time to prepare or construct an abode or home in the spiritual realm.

So, just what is the actual idea?

Believe it or not, I agree with you. I believe heaven to be in some other dimension, which makes it invisible to us. Every time we say a prayer to the Lord, there is a message that travels from us to Him. Every time there is a temptation, there is a message sent from Satan or one of his demons to us. Of course, I am guessing Satan is also in another dimension, but not the one God is in.

What boggles the human mind is, in eternity, there is no time or space. So in our human language, to ask WHERE is heaven, that is probably not the right word. Where there is no space, there is no where. Another word that probably does not describe eternity is when. When we all get to heaven, what a day............etc, Where there is no time, there is no when.

 

[Van]

Hi S/N, did you read that the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Does the creation of time in the physical realm preclude preexisting divine time in the spiritual realm?

Scripture tells us of places in heaven, and describes the space involved.

 

[saturneptune]

Hi S/N, did you read that the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Does the creation of time in the physical realm preclude preexisting divine time in the spiritual realm?

Scripture tells us of places in heaven, and describes the space involved.

Very good point. There is probably something like time and space as we know it, but who knows in what form? I for sure believe in the theory of dimensions. I have no problem believing that the Lord has created other life in either this realm we live in or another realm of His choosing.

You know, for example, if you could imagine a 2 D realm, or a piece of paper. If a creature was living in that 2D, and he tried to contact you, he might want to see what you looked like. Well, to reveal yourself, you might stick your fingers through that paper. All he would see would be five small circles, but not you as you appear. A crude example, but you get the idea going the other way.

It is nice talking to you in this manner. Things have happened in my life as of late, and I am worn out and through with the degrading remarks to anyone. Thanks for your civil response.

 

[Van]

Not a problem S/N, I have behaved poorly many times.

 

[Van]

Hi TND, thanks for post #25, I think it is spot on!

 

[Greektim]

I haven't read Van's post, so I'm not sure this is on point. I agree with your first statement. The Greek ouranos is translated both "sky" and "heaven" in the Bible. But you say they had no interstellar understanding, and that simply isn't true. The Jews received the science of the Persians both during captivity and afterwards, and the Persians had an intimate understanding of near-earth space, out to Saturn, which they, and the Romans too, for that matter, understood as a "planet" rather than a "star."Though somewhat agreeing with this, it is obvious from Paul's writing in 2 Corinthians 12:2 of being "caught up" to the third heaven that he had an understanding of three separate "heavens", the sky, interstellar space, and God's abode. This dates back all the way to Moses.

The First Heaven: Earth Atmosphere

Deuteronomy 11, (NASB)
17 Then the LORD's anger will burn against you, and He will shut the heavens so that it will not rain and the ground will yield no produce....

Deuteronomy 28
12 The LORD will open the heavens, the storehouse of His bounty, to send rain on your land in season and to bless all the work of your hands.

Judges 5
4 O LORD, when You went out from Seir, when You marched from the land of Edom, the earth shook, the heavens poured, the clouds poured down water.

Acts 14
17 Yet He has not left himself without testimony: He has shown kindness by giving you rain from heaven and crops in their seasons ...

The Second Heaven: Interstellar Space

Psalm 19
4 In the heavens He has pitched a tent for the sun...
---
6 It rises at one end of the heavens and makes its circuit to the other ...

Jeremiah 8
2 They will be exposed to the sun and the moon and all the stars of the heavens which they have loved and served ...

Isaiah 13
10 The stars of heaven and their constellations will not show their light.

The Third Heaven: God's Dwelling Place

1 Kings 8
30 Then hear from heaven, Your dwelling place... [[Note: This phrase is repeated numerous tiimes in the following verses]

Psalm 2
4 The One enthroned in heaven laughs;
The LORD scoffs at them.

Matthew 5
16 In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.

The highest heaven: The third heaven is indicated by the reference to the Throne of God being the highest heaven

1 Kings 8
27 But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain You.

Deut. 10
14 To the LORD your God belong the heavens, even the highest heavens, the earth and everything in it.
​

While the first sentence in that portion of the post is accurate, the Temple of God in heaven is essential to the understanding of heaven. As we've seen from the many verses I've posted, the Jews had an intimate understanding of the nuances of heaven, and the Temple most assuredly exists there, but it is in heaven, not heaven itself.

None of those passages you cite actually use the term "first" and "second" as if they did draw a distinction between the sky and space. I know there was a knowledge of space for the ancients. I am just saying that it was not as cut and dry as we make it. I am really saying that Paul only called it the 3rd heaven b/c it was the abode of God, the inner sanctum. This comes from a temple mindset of 3 stages. I hardly think Paul or the other Biblical writers care about explaining what the other 2 heavens are. That misses the illustration or the point.

 

[Yeshua1]

None of those passages you cite actually use the term "first" and "second" as if they did draw a distinction between the sky and space. I know there was a knowledge of space for the ancients. I am just saying that it was not as cut and dry as we make it. I am really saying that Paul only called it the 3rd heaven b/c it was the abode of God, the inner sanctum. This comes from a temple mindset of 3 stages. I hardly think Paul or the other Biblical writers care about explaining what the other 2 heavens are. That misses the illustration or the point.

Would tend to see in as distinct outside/apart fromt the universe, beyonfd"normal time and space" realm of God, where no time exists , just God presense , and His creation where angels and the redeemed shal spend Eternity in....

 

[Van]

As an example of how the view of three heavens is important, consider Jesus say no one as ascended to heaven, yet Enoch was taken up. If he had been taken up to the abode of God, Jesus would be mistaken at John 3:13. However, if the heaven in view in the Elijah passage is heaven number one, then it all fits. They both went not to the abode of God, per John 3:13, but to "Abraham's bosom.

There is no need to muddy the water and claim the concept is so muddled we cannot simply understand it as described in scripture.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

I hardly think Paul or the other Biblical writers care about explaining what the other 2 heavens are. That misses the illustration or the point.

Why would they need to explain them? It is obvious from the passages I cited that they had a view of a three-stage heaven -- sky, interstellar space, God's abode -- that they expected their readers to understand without a second thought. I hardly think it is accurate to view God's abode as being a giant, infinite temple. There's no evidence for that, but the definition of either shamayim in the Hebrew or ouranos in the Greek certainly don't describe a temple.

 

[Greektim]

Why would they need to explain them? It is obvious from the passages I cited that they had a view of a three-stage heaven -- sky, interstellar space, God's abode -- that they expected their readers to understand without a second thought. I hardly think it is accurate to view God's abode as being a giant, infinite temple. There's no evidence for that, but the definition of either shamayim in the Hebrew or ouranos in the Greek certainly don't describe a temple.

You can talk all you want, but you still haven't cited a place that says first or second heaven. The 3 stage concept comes from their understanding of the temple. Since God's abode is the true sanctuary, then the term "heaven" would thus be the 3rd stage. They didn't concern themselves w/ stage 1 or 2. All the passages you quoted about the first and seconed "heaven" could just as easily be translated as sky. So they are not thinking, "Stars which means 2nd heaven" and so forth. They are thinking, "stars which means skies."

My point is, this concept of 3rd heaven is born from the temple model. It is not the other way around. The temple is not a 3 stage structure patterned after sky, space, and heaven. But the concept of the abode of God is patterned after the temple since his throne is in heaven and his footstool was in the most holy place on earth in the temple.