That's a healthy view IMHO.
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So, you don't like to be labeled?
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That's a healthy view IMHO.
I don't think the issue here is what denomination we align ourselves with, although a denomination is a label. This issue is what we believe and how that is described.
For instance, you call yourself a Christian. Fair enough. Now, overlooking the fact that "Christian" is a label, what type of Christian are you? You may say, "Well, I'm a bible believing Christian." Many of our Roman Catholic and Mormon friends would say the same thing, but I'm sure you don't want to be categorized with either of those groups. "Okay, then I'm a follower of Jesus." Even Muslims can say that since they believe Jesus was a good teacher. See my point?
Now, I'm not saying we should be pointing out everyone's labels and using that as a way to define them, but it's very important to know what people believe. It's nothing to be feared, although many people fear allowing themselves to be defined.
I don't have a problem with labels if they clearly define the position of the individual so labeled and/or are accepted by the labelee.
i.e. I accept the label of "Christian" although many others who wear that label would not align with my doctrinal point of view. It is a label which is clearly understood as being nebulous.
Or "futurist" as opposed to "preterist", clearly defines my point of view.
Also "Trinitarian", though there is more than one flavor of trinitarianism - i.e. Latin, Greek and Orthodox. Most American Trinitarians are of the Latin variety and are probably not aware of the subtle differences within trinitarianism.
"Dispensational" is a label which generally defines my echatological point of view but I avoid it because there is so great differences in that school of thought with so much variation.
Also I avoid labels which are the names of mortal men because IMO the scripture implicitly (although not exactly explicitly) discourages their use, even apostolic names...
I am of Paul, I am of Apollos, Cephas, etc...
If someone would ask as to my point of view concerning labels such as Calvinism or Arminianism because it would be necessary as to my service at a local church at this point in time I would say "neither" but I lean towards being a "Christmas Calvinist (no "L")".
However "undecided" is the more honest answer or the label "mugwump" (A mugwump is someone with his/her 'mug" on one side of the fence and their "wump" on the other) which label someone here at the BB gave me.
Also, these labels which are derived from the names of men seem to be the most divisive and hurtful.
The only labels of any real importance to me are the ones which our father in heaven gives us to each one of us - "saved", "redeemed", "children", "babes", "young men", etc...
HankD
i.e. I accept the label of "Christian" although many others who wear that label would not align with my doctrinal point of view. It is a label which is clearly understood as being nebulous.
Or "futurist" as opposed to "preterist", clearly defines my point of view.
Also "Trinitarian", though there is more than one flavor of trinitarianism - i.e. Latin, Greek and Orthodox. Most American Trinitarians are of the Latin variety and are probably not aware of the subtle differences within trinitarianism.
"Dispensational" is a label which generally defines my echatological point of view but I avoid it because there is so great differences in that school of thought with so much variation.
Also I avoid labels which are the names of mortal men because IMO the scripture implicitly (although not exactly explicitly) discourages their use, even apostolic names...
I am of Paul, I am of Apollos, Cephas, etc...
If someone would ask as to my point of view concerning labels such as Calvinism or Arminianism because it would be necessary as to my service at a local church at this point in time I would say "neither" but I lean towards being a "Christmas Calvinist (no "L")".
However "undecided" is the more honest answer or the label "mugwump" (A mugwump is someone with his/her 'mug" on one side of the fence and their "wump" on the other) which label someone here at the BB gave me.
Also, these labels which are derived from the names of men seem to be the most divisive and hurtful.
The only labels of any real importance to me are the ones which our father in heaven gives us to each one of us - "saved", "redeemed", "children", "babes", "young men", etc...
HankD
ALL would hold that we are sinners, that HAVE to have the Lord appleal His grace towards us in order to be able to trust in christ...
Think he has problems with those !
As we can freely chose to accept jesus, inate faith in us, per him!
You are either an extremely poor reader, or you intentionally misrepresent me. I clearly wrote that no man can be saved without the grace of God.
So, which is it? Are you dull or dishonest?
I explained. I do not hold to Perseverance of the Saints. To persevere by definition means we endure, or hold faithful to the end. It is a form of works salvation.
I believe that when you trust on Jesus you are born again. You are literally transformed into a son of God. You cannot be "unborn again". We are sealed and indwelt by the Holy Spirit who has promised to never leave us. I could try as hard as I want to leave Jesus, but he will never leave me. Now, I do not want to leave Jesus, I was just saying that so you would understand my position.
I can grieve the Holy Spirit, but I cannot abandon the Holy Spirit. Where I go, he goes, I am preserved in Christ.
This is called the Preservation of the Saints. I am not saved because I am always faithful to Jesus. Any Christian who is truly honest will admit he is not always faithful to Jesus. I am not saved by my perseverance and faithfulness THANK GOD!! I am saved because Jesus will always be faithful to me and never leave me. He will in no wise (that means for ANY reason) cast me out (John 6:37)
I am glad I do not have to endure or persevere, because I know I would fail. But thank God, Jesus NEVER FAILS.
Arminianism and Calvinism are really the same thing, both believe a person is saved by persevering. That is a person saving themselves.
I do not depend on myself, I depend only on Jesus to save me.
Talk about a huge misunderstanding of that doctrine.
YUPP!!! Simply not understood....worrying about a "division" and a "strife of words".....it isn't a works Salvation....never was, never will be.
convicted1
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First off, I do not want to be a moderator or pastor of a church. If God led me to be one, I would tell any church that wanted to look at me as their prospective pastor, I would tell them everything I believe the bible to state. I would not hide anything. If a church believes in a fall from grace, I would them I do not. If that church believed in reformed theology, I would tell them I do not. I would not go into a church "incognito", but tell them the way I see the word of God.
It would be wrong for me to go into any church with a hidden agenda.
Well then, you explain it to me. I certainly know what the word persevere means.
I am not persisting to be saved, I am saved now. I am not holding on, I have let go.
Now, it is true that a person who is saved will persevere, because they are sealed and indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
1 Jhn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
A person who is truly born of God cannot apostate, because his seed (the Holy Spirit) REMAINETH in him. We are sealed by the Holy Spirit, and he will never leave us under any circumstance. We do not have to endure to be saved.
It is like circumcision. Circumcision was the seal of the righteousness imputed to Abraham when he believed. Once you are circumcised, it is final. You cannot reverse it, you cannot become uncircumcised again. It is once-for-all. Once you are circumcised, you do not have to do anything to remain circumcised.
Today we are sealed by the Holy Spirit. It is the same as circumcision, it is once-for-all, FINAL. You cannot become unborn again. You have eternal life and shall NEVER perish.
You do not have to persevere or endure to be kept by the Holy Spirit, you are preserved and sealed forever the moment you believe.
It is clear from scripture that we do have to persevere:
Mat_10:22 and you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
Mat_24:13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
Php_2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,
Just because we endure does not mean we get the credit for it. and we need to watch out for fallacious definitions of works. That always seems to lead to all kinds of weird doctrines like yours.
So this by itself would say why you are not a calvinist, not why are not an arminian.
I think this is essentially the calvinist position on perserverance. However, it could also be the position of an arminian who does not believe a person can lose their salvation.
Actually, the Calvinist position is that God keeps a person perservering...which sounds like what you are saying here...unless you are saying that even if you abandon the faith and cease believing in christ, you will still remain a saved person.
I don't think I have heard anyone accuse the calvinist position of "a person saving themselves" before.
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Well, good luck with that enduring.
Look, if we are not instantly saved forever, then many scriptures cannot be truth.
Jhn 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Jesus said whoever comes to him, he will in no wise cast them out. If a true believer who came to Jesus could apostate and lose their salvation, then this verse would be a lie.
Jhn 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
If a true believer can apostate, then this verse is a lie. They will perish. Jesus did not give them eternal life, only temporary life (if your view is true).
2 Tim 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
If a true believer can fall away later and be lost, then this verse is a lie, they are not kept at all.
Circumcision was an OT figure of being sealed by the Holy Spirit in the NT. It cannot be undone, it is final, forever. Once you have been circumcised, no matter what you do you will remain circumcised. It is the same when we are sealed by the Spirit.
Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
You see, circumcision was an OT figure of the sealing of the Holy Spirit in the NT. It cannot be undone. You do not have to endure to remain circumcised, and you do not have to endure to remain sealed by the Holy Spirit.
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:thumbsup::thumbs: If i can disagree with you often, I need to take the time to agree with you when i can:thumbs:
Winman, earlier in this thread you said there is nothing "supernatural" about regeneration. We do not agree on this at all,and now you see it leads down a wrong path.
and now....the 1689 confession on this for your reading pleasure:
Chapter 17: Of The Perseverance of the Saints
1._____ Those whom God hath accepted in the beloved, effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit, and given the precious faith of his elect unto, can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved, seeing the gifts and callings of God are without repentance, whence he still begets and nourisheth in them faith, repentance, love, joy, hope, and all the graces of the Spirit unto immortality; and though many storms and floods arise and beat against them, yet they shall never be able to take them off that foundation and rock which by faith they are fastened upon; notwithstanding, through unbelief and the temptations of Satan, the sensible sight of the light and love of God may for a time be clouded and obscured from them, yet he is still the same, and they shall be sure to be kept by the power of God unto salvation, where they shall enjoy their purchased possession, they being engraven upon the palm of his hands, and their names having been written in the book of life from all eternity.
( John 10:28, 29; Philippians 1:6; 2 Timothy 2:19; 1 John 2:19; Psalms 89:31, 32; 1 Corinthians 11:32; Malachi 3:6 )
2._____ This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father, upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ and union with him, the oath of God, the abiding of his Spirit, and the seed of God within them, and the nature of the covenant of grace; from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof.
( Romans 8:30 Romans 9:11, 16; Romans 5:9, 10; John 14:19; Hebrews 6:17, 18; 1 John 3:9; Jeremiah 32:40 )
3._____ And though they may, through the temptation of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins, and for a time continue therein, whereby they incur God's displeasure and grieve his Holy Spirit, come to have their graces and comforts impaired, have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded, hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves, yet shall they renew their repentance and be preserved through faith in Christ Jesus to the end.
( Matthew 26:70, 72, 74; Isaiah 64:5, 9; Ephesians 4:30; Psalms 51:10, 12; Psalms 32:3, 4; 2 Samuel 12:14; Luke 22:32, 61, 62 )
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Icon said;
That is absolutely false. I have always said that regeneration is a supernatural work that only God can perform. Show where I said regeneration is not supernatural.
What I have said is that believing is not supernatural. All men have the ability to believe. It is a God-given ability all men are born with and quite natural to all men.
Now, the Word of God is supernatural, Jesus said his words were spirit and they were life. Unless God graciously revealed Jesus Christ to us through the scriptures or the preaching of the scriptures, then no man could be saved.
But when a man hears the Word of God, a man has the ability to choose to believe it, or to reject it.
If a person chooses to believe the Word of God and trusts Jesus, at that moment God will supernaturally regenerate that person, he will give them the power to become a son of God, they will be born again, spiritually alive.
If you fellas really believed you were winning the debate, you would not find it necessary to misrepresent me, and put words in my mouth I never said.
I thought Christians were always to speak the truth. Some of you fellas could sure fool me.
That is absolutely false. I have always said that regeneration is a supernatural work that only God can perform. Show where I said regeneration is not supernatural.
What I have said is that believing is not supernatural. All men have the ability to believe. It is a God-given ability all men are born with and quite natural to all men.
Now, the Word of God is supernatural, Jesus said his words were spirit and they were life. Unless God graciously revealed Jesus Christ to us through the scriptures or the preaching of the scriptures, then no man could be saved.
But when a man hears the Word of God, a man has the ability to choose to believe it, or to reject it.
If a person chooses to believe the Word of God and trusts Jesus, at that moment God will supernaturally regenerate that person, he will give them the power to become a son of God, they will be born again, spiritually alive.
If you fellas really believed you were winning the debate, you would not find it necessary to misrepresent me, and put words in my mouth I never said.
I thought Christians were always to speak the truth. Some of you fellas could sure fool me.
As far as that 1689 Confession, from what I briefly read it seemed OK.
However, perseverance is a poor choice of words. If we are kept by God from falling away, that is preservation, not perseverance. Words have meaning, and the meaning is important. To persevere and to be preserved are not the same things whatsoever. We are not saved because we persevere, that would be salvation through our own effort and merit, we are saved because we are sealed by the Holy Spirit and preserved, we are KEPT from falling.
However, perseverance is a poor choice of words. If we are kept by God from falling away, that is preservation, not perseverance. Words have meaning, and the meaning is important. To persevere and to be preserved are not the same things whatsoever. We are not saved because we persevere, that would be salvation through our own effort and merit, we are saved because we are sealed by the Holy Spirit and preserved, we are KEPT from falling.
For those not familiar with the extensive namecalling protocol of these Reformed Baptist types, here is a chart compiled by their Elder Nichols, complete with glossary, outlining the numerous damning heretical doctrines and bugaboos (for them) such as sovereign grace, congregationalism, decisionism, dispensationalism, etc., etc. etc.:
http://www.ccel.org/creeds/bcf/docdist.htm
http://www.ccel.org/creeds/bcf/docdist.htm
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i do not think I mis-read it because you then say this:
Now, if ever there was a time to tell folks that regeneration is necessary for a person to hear and believe the gospel, this passage is where Paul should have told us. But Paul does not mention one word about the necessity of being regenerated to have the ability to hear and believe here, or anywhere else in all of scripture. It is incredible to believe that Paul would forget to mention such an important doctrine if it were true, but that is exactly what happened, Paul did not mention the need for regeneration to hear or believe.
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