So, you say you like Spurgeon?

[psalms109:31]

Spurgeon is not inconsistent. He just does not reconcile scripture as some do bodly without regard with the text like all men meaning all men. When the scripture says this here and says another here he will agree with both and not reconcile what the Holy Spirit is saying to the audience out of the scriptures until only what you want the scripture to say remains. His love for his doctrine is not great enough for him to chop off one branch out of the forest of scripture through reconciliation .

When someone will do that with scriptures, what do you think they will do with what a great person who God used to win millions to Him. To have compassion for sinners the wicked sinners and see them as sheep who need a shepherd . That Jesus came to save sinners who I am the worst. I rather be inconsistent with my self than with the inspired word of God.

Regeneration before faith is ridiculous if you have no real food you have no life. The first we are bid to do is to eat the passover meal who is Christ and then say I have life. There is no life without Jesus and the working of the Holy Spirit through the words of Jesus and the words about Him the Gospel before Jesus and His word you was dead. We are born again through the enduring word of God.

 

[Yeshua1]

Spurgeon said,




Spurgeon's point was what Jesus said, that is the sick who need a physician (Luke 5:31). Spurgeon is not separating the regenerate from those who are saved. He understood the order of salvation well. He would agree with every other Calvinist that regeneration precedes justification, but only by the narrowest of measurement.

there does seem to be a difference on this though in cals camp!

reformed like say RC Sproul can see a person being regenerated for years before actually placing faith in christ, while baptists like Spurgeon, and myself, see regeneration/faith as happening pretty much at same time in a Christians salvation process/experience!

 

[MorseOp]

there does seem to be a difference on this though in cals camp!

reformed like say RC Sproul can see a person being regenerated for years before actually placing faith in christ, while baptists like Spurgeon, and myself, see regeneration/faith as happening pretty much at same time in a Christians salvation process/experience!

I agree. I have some good friends who believe in the possibility of a lengthy regeneration before justification. The good Dr. Sproul is a brilliant man but if he truly believes that then I disagree with him.

 

[Yeshua1]

I agree. I have some good friends who believe in the possibility of a lengthy regeneration before justification. The good Dr. Sproul is a brilliant man but if he truly believes that then I disagree with him.

yes, just don't push it so far out that one can see a person getting to heaven without even placing in jesus, as he was already "regenerated"!

 

[agedman]

I agree. I have some good friends who believe in the possibility of a lengthy regeneration before justification. The good Dr. Sproul is a brilliant man but if he truly believes that then I disagree with him.

I may disagree with Sproul on some areas, but in this area I see regeneration as the initial conception of the new nature in which the new birth will take place. The length of gestation is determined by the work of the Holy Spirit and the Scriptures in the yet to proclaim belief person.

Just as a baby born will let the world know they have arrived, I view Romans as teaching that before a person proclaims they already have the words in their heart and in their mouth.

If one is faithful to the typical Calvinistic view, the work of sanctification, and justification is complete at the point of predestination. The regeneration is the implementation of awareness given by the Holy Spirit through the Scriptures to the person that they can sense the Godly conviction in comparison to a worldly conviction. Paul is an example - kicking against the pricks of Godly conviction while those around were cast down only to rise in worldly excuse making. The jailer "what must I do to be saved" is a result of Godly conviction and not worldly conviction.

Such Godly conviction cannot be assigned to the dead in trespasses and sins person unless there be a work of regeneration having been appointed and begun by the Word and work of the Holy Spirit.

To give a human illustration it is sort of like the father that purchased the car for the son going off to college; however, the father did not have the car delivered until after high school graduation as a graduation gift.

The ownership was already established - purchase made, title delivered, insurance in place. The son had no concept of the delivery time, nor the ability to proclaim that the car was "his car" until after delivery and awareness.

However, it didn't mean that the car was not his before delivery - even an unknown delivery and unknown awareness (can one be unknowingly aware?).

 

[Yeshua1]

I may disagree with Sproul on some areas, but in this area I see regeneration as the initial conception of the new nature in which the new birth will take place. The length of gestation is determined by the work of the Holy Spirit and the Scriptures in the yet to proclaim belief person.

Just as a baby born will let the world know they have arrived, I view Romans as teaching that before a person proclaims they already have the words in their heart and in their mouth.

If one is faithful to the typical Calvinistic view, the work of sanctification, and justification is complete at the point of predestination. The regeneration is the implementation of awareness given by the Holy Spirit through the Scriptures to the person that they can sense the Godly conviction in comparison to a worldly conviction. Paul is an example - kicking against the pricks of Godly conviction while those around were cast down only to rise in worldly excuse making. The jailer "what must I do to be saved" is a result of Godly conviction and not worldly conviction.

Such Godly conviction cannot be assigned to the dead in trespasses and sins person unless there be a work of regeneration having been appointed and begun by the Word and work of the Holy Spirit.

To give a human illustration it is sort of like the father that purchased the car for the son going off to college; however, the father did not have the car delivered until after high school graduation as a graduation gift.

The ownership was already established - purchase made, title delivered, insurance in place. The son had no concept of the delivery time, nor the ability to proclaim that the car was "his car" until after delivery and awareness.

However, it didn't mean that the car was not his before delivery - even an unknown delivery and unknown awareness (can one be unknowingly aware?).

problem is that the NT view is ALWAYS that the person get a changed heart/mind by God inmediatly when hearing the Gospel, so regeneration/faith like 2 sides of same coin, no regeneration in NT for awhile before person finally receive Christ!

 

[agedman]

problem is that the NT view is ALWAYS that the person get a changed heart/mind by God inmediatly when hearing the Gospel, so regeneration/faith like 2 sides of same coin, no regeneration in NT for awhile before person finally receive Christ!

That isn't a problem.

Just as you stated, the hearing of the Gospel (work of the Holy Spirit and the Word) is the conduit to salvation. The ability to hear (those who have ears hear) is not conditioned upon human ability but Godly appointment opening of the ears to hear.

Therefore, if one "hears" and "responds" (such as the jailor and many through the ages) immediately - that is great.

However, that does not disqualify the view that one can undergo the process of being conceived long before birth takes place. Examples would include Paul and Nicodemus.

Being faithful to the Calvinistic view requires that both be true and that the "proclamation" of belief is NOT the "act" upon which salvation is imparted by God. For then salvation would demand some work of man.

As Romans states, the word and work was already in the heart and mouth and proclamation is made if such is the case.

Faith (according to the Scriptures) comes by "hearing and hearing by the Word of God." Notice the hearing part. The dead do not hear. Unless there is a definite work of conception (start of regeneration) there is no hearing. Recall that if in fact predestination is true, then sanctification and justification have taken place, already for that person.

The person is just being made aware of the claim of Christ ("Who are you Lord?") on their life, and then submission to that same Christ ("Lord, what do you want me to do?") as exampled by Paul.

Did Paul have a heart and mind change immediately upon hearing the Word of God? No - he was present at the condemnation and stoning of Stephen. Was the jailor and Nicodemus immediately upon hearing the Word changed? No, there was a segment of time lapse - though short, it was never the less there.

When Jesus healed the sightless, did he first not see men as trees, and then the sight was clear?

Many struggle in conviction and Godly sorrow that brings repentance unto salvation. Some for years, some for months, some for days, some for hours, some for moments.

Also, this word "receive" is a bit problematic to the Calvinistic view if taken that some words or actions are done by the person to accept, take, or grasp as the connotation.

The delivery of salvation is as a gift given by God. It matters not if the child picks up the gift, the gift is still given. The awareness of the presence of the gift and opening to use the gift are not considered when the gift is given. In fact, at times the gift is hidden until the appropriate time. The gift is given with the name tag already filled out. It (the gift) is delivered and merely waiting to be unwrapped and used.

Arminian folk would put much stock in the word "receive" as if there were some work of volition that needed done.

The Calvinistic thoughts generally reject any view suggesting any work or human volition can be done other than respond in gratitude to what has been given. That the imparted gift that the Word and work of the Holy Spirit implants as the measure of faith is making the receiving reflective and not active.

For instance, "I received the gift of salvation from the Father, through the Son," is a much different view statement in comparison to, "I took the gift of salvation from the Father, through the Son."

 

[Yeshua1]

That isn't a problem.

Just as you stated, the hearing of the Gospel (work of the Holy Spirit and the Word) is the conduit to salvation. The ability to hear (those who have ears hear) is not conditioned upon human ability but Godly appointment opening of the ears to hear.

Therefore, if one "hears" and "responds" (such as the jailor and many through the ages) immediately - that is great.

However, that does not disqualify the view that one can undergo the process of being conceived long before birth takes place. Examples would include Paul and Nicodemus.

Being faithful to the Calvinistic view requires that both be true and that the "proclamation" of belief is NOT the "act" upon which salvation is imparted by God. For then salvation would demand some work of man.

As Romans states, the word and work was already in the heart and mouth and proclamation is made if such is the case.

Faith (according to the Scriptures) comes by "hearing and hearing by the Word of God." Notice the hearing part. The dead do not hear. Unless there is a definite work of conception (start of regeneration) there is no hearing. Recall that if in fact predestination is true, then sanctification and justification have taken place, already for that person.

The person is just being made aware of the claim of Christ ("Who are you Lord?") on their life, and then submission to that same Christ ("Lord, what do you want me to do?") as exampled by Paul.

Did Paul have a heart and mind change immediately upon hearing the Word of God? No - he was present at the condemnation and stoning of Stephen. Was the jailor and Nicodemus immediately upon hearing the Word changed? No, there was a segment of time lapse - though short, it was never the less there.

When Jesus healed the sightless, did he first not see men as trees, and then the sight was clear?

Many struggle in conviction and Godly sorrow that brings repentance unto salvation. Some for years, some for months, some for days, some for hours, some for moments.

Also, this word "receive" is a bit problematic to the Calvinistic view if taken that some words or actions are done by the person to accept, take, or grasp as the connotation.

The delivery of salvation is as a gift given by God. It matters not if the child picks up the gift, the gift is still given. The awareness of the presence of the gift and opening to use the gift are not considered when the gift is given. In fact, at times the gift is hidden until the appropriate time. The gift is given with the name tag already filled out. It (the gift) is delivered and merely waiting to be unwrapped and used.

Arminian folk would put much stock in the word "receive" as if there were some work of volition that needed done.

The Calvinistic thoughts generally reject any view suggesting any work or human volition can be done other than respond in gratitude to what has been given. That the imparted gift that the Word and work of the Holy Spirit implants as the measure of faith is making the receiving reflective and not active.

For instance, "I received the gift of salvation from the Father, through the Son," is a much different view statement in comparison to, "I took the gift of salvation from the Father, through the Son."

based upon mu understanding, would it be correct to say that reform cals tend to see regeneration and faith as 2 seperated by lenght of time events in salvation process, while baptist cals see them as immediatly done, or at least at same time as per human understanding?

 

[agedman]

based upon mu understanding, would it be correct to say that reform cals tend to see regeneration and faith as 2 seperated by lenght of time events in salvation process, while baptist cals see them as immediatly done, or at least at same time as per human understanding?

I really don't know if there is a grouping or not.

I do know that most SB and IFB teach salvation and regeneration as occurring together. Most seem to be holding some form of Arminian thinking when attempting to reconcile true Godly conviction as occurring before "quickening" that provides an awareness of the need of God takes place. Hence such terms as "prevenient grace" which is not found anywhere in the Scriptures or even illustrated in the Scriptural example.

The baptist cals and reformed cals that I have encountered have been sort of split on the issue and hold it somewhat in flux as far as a final determination; rather, they reside mainly in the preference area of what they consider a supportable biblical view, but not completely opposed to the other view.

I'm to old to be flexible, and tend to state my views as the only acceptable rendering of truth.

Sort of like the blind examining parts of the elephant.

 

[MorseOp]

based upon mu understanding, would it be correct to say that reform cals tend to see regeneration and faith as 2 seperated by lenght of time events in salvation process, while baptist cals see them as immediatly done, or at least at same time as per human understanding?

No. Regeneration does proceed faith, but it happens so quickly that it is indistinguishable from the whole. I separate from those who believe a person can be regenerate for days, weeks, months, or years prior to their conversion. Once the Spirit moves to bring about conversion, He moves!

 

[Yeshua1]

No. Regeneration does proceed faith, but it happens so quickly that it is indistinguishable from the whole. I separate from those who believe a person can be regenerate for days, weeks, months, or years prior to their conversion. Once the Spirit moves to bring about conversion, He moves!

that is how i see it also!

 

[agedman]

No. Regeneration does proceed faith, but it happens so quickly that it is indistinguishable from the whole. I separate from those who believe a person can be regenerate for days, weeks, months, or years prior to their conversion. Once the Spirit moves to bring about conversion, He moves!

Who said regeneration proceeds faith?

The whole (in human) starts with the preaching of the Word and Work of the Holy Spirit. THAT is what the Scriptures teach is how God puts faith into the human.

Are not faith and regeneration at the same time?

The fact that a person may not acknowledge that gift for a period of time, may "kick against the pricks" and fall under sever conviction (as has been testified by even some members of the BB) does not prevent the the implantation of faith and the moving work of the Holy Spirit bringing conviction and Godly repentance unto salvation unlike the worldly sorrow which works death.

However, there is NEVER a case recorded in the Scriptures in which the preaching of the Word and work of the Holy Spirit were not involved FIRST with a person being converted. When the Spirit is involved, then the Christ (quickening spirit) is involved and salvation is concluded already. "My sheep hear My voice..."

Does faith and regeneration happen simultaneously? Of Course!

That is the point.

The acknowledgement of salvation is already in the heart and mouth ready to be proclaimed according to Romans.

The birth of the baby and the cry of the baby go hand in hand.

The birth is the result of the conception and gestation process. The baby already is before the cry to the world proclaiming great and might things.

 

[Jon-Marc]

I've never read anything of Spurgeon, but our pastor (and another one I sat under for 20 years) quotes him so often that I don't need to read him for myself. :laugh:

 

[Luke2427]

problem is that the NT view is ALWAYS that the person get a changed heart/mind by God inmediatly when hearing the Gospel, so regeneration/faith like 2 sides of same coin, no regeneration in NT for awhile before person finally receive Christ!

That's not true at all.

The bible does not teach that.

A person's regeneration process can be very lengthy and there is not a verse that says otherwise.

 

[Luke2427]

No. Regeneration does proceed faith, but it happens so quickly that it is indistinguishable from the whole. I separate from those who believe a person can be regenerate for days, weeks, months, or years prior to their conversion. Once the Spirit moves to bring about conversion, He moves!

The Bible doesn't teach that.

 

[MorseOp]

Who said regeneration proceeds faith?

The whole (in human) starts with the preaching of the Word and Work of the Holy Spirit. THAT is what the Scriptures teach is how God puts faith into the human.

Are not faith and regeneration at the same time?

The fact that a person may not acknowledge that gift for a period of time, may "kick against the pricks" and fall under sever conviction (as has been testified by even some members of the BB) does not prevent the the implantation of faith and the moving work of the Holy Spirit bringing conviction and Godly repentance unto salvation unlike the worldly sorrow which works death.

However, there is NEVER a case recorded in the Scriptures in which the preaching of the Word and work of the Holy Spirit were not involved FIRST with a person being converted. When the Spirit is involved, then the Christ (quickening spirit) is involved and salvation is concluded already. "My sheep hear My voice..."

Does faith and regeneration happen simultaneously? Of Course!

That is the point.

The acknowledgement of salvation is already in the heart and mouth ready to be proclaimed according to Romans.

The birth of the baby and the cry of the baby go hand in hand.

The birth is the result of the conception and gestation process. The baby already is before the cry to the world proclaiming great and might things.

Eph. 2:1 tell us that the unsaved man is spiritually dead. The Greek word in that verse, nekros, means dead as in a corpse; not a state of death - real death. Not only do "dead men tell no tales", they tell nothing. They are dead. God had to take unilateral action to make man able to believe (Eph. 2:4, 5). That is where regeneration comes into play; God removing man's heart of stone and replacing it with a heart of flesh (Ezekiel 36). Only after God makes that move can man believe.

 

[agedman]

Eph. 2:1 tell us that the unsaved man is spiritually dead. The Greek word in that verse, nekros, means dead as in a corpse; not a state of death - real death. Not only do "dead men tell no tales", they tell nothing. They are dead. God had to take unilateral action to make man able to believe (Eph. 2:4, 5). That is where regeneration comes into play; God removing man's heart of stone and replacing it with a heart of flesh (Ezekiel 36). Only after God makes that move can man believe.

Does not that fit to what what I was posting?

I don't see the conflict.

Perhaps I am missing a nuance or am too exuberant in my view of the whole of salvation being of God and not one wit, jot or mite of human volition.

 

[psalms109:31]

Regeneration before faith is ridiculous except to those who denies this truth. Why would they say the one who they follow is wrong, just like I will not say Spurgeon is wrong in that matter.

I do kind of agree with R.C. Sproul.

We all are different and God has to deal with each other differently to bring us to the same truth. Our own salvation experience does influence how we see His word

I was 8 years old when I heard God loved the world, the rest I did not understand. God loved the world, the universe, I loved Him because He loved me. It wasn't until I was 11 when the Father introduced me to His Son through His messenger and my need for a savior because I was a sinner and Jesus came to save me, praise Jesus. I read the Holy Bible and different commentaries plenty of times after I trusted in Jesus and couldn't understand a word of it, but I still believed in Jesus, trusted in Jesus believed in Him and you will be saved. In my late 20 my marriage was failing me and she was going to leave me. I read the Holy Bible to try to save my marriage, telling her that God hates divorce and she told me not to preach to her. God did not give me what I wanted at that time, He wanted me to have my time in the wilderness to teach me. One day during my separation from my wife in tears God opened my eyes to understand the scripture.

I believe we wait after we believe and when He feels we are ready He will give the Holy Spirit in His timing not ours. We have the Spirit given to us from His word to get us through until then.

 

[MorseOp]

Regeneration before faith is ridiculous except to those who denies this truth.

You come from the Winman and Van school of inflammatory rhetoric, I see.

 

[MorseOp]

Does not that fit to what what I was posting?

I don't see the conflict.

Perhaps I am missing a nuance or am too exuberant in my view of the whole of salvation being of God and not one wit, jot or mite of human volition.

I think what you may be missing is what transpires in Ephesians 2:4, 5. I believe we are already in agreement that man is spiritually dead, and thus unable to believe in God apart from God making man able to believe. It is that "making able" that introduces regeneration. I generally do not like analogies because they inevitably fail when used to explain God or something God does, but I will use one here. Regeneration is like God turning on the light to your soul. Before that you had no idea how dirty your spiritual house is. Now the light exposes everything. You see that sin abounds in every corner. Your vile deeds hang from the ceiling. Your blasphemies shout out at every step. Among all the wretchedness you see the source of the light. How could you not be drawn to it? As you approach the light you see a different reality; one of blessing and forgiveness. You choose to walk into that reality, forsaking the house of death you are now in. That light, of course, is Christ.

This is why I believe regeneration and faith take place so close together. They are, as I have said before, indistinguishable from the whole.