I disagree with you.
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So, you say you like Spurgeon?
- Thread starter MorseOp
- Start date
I disagree with you.
psalms109:31
Active Member
You come from the Winman and Van school of inflammatory rhetoric, I see.
I don't believe in free will. We are saved by the will of God.
Lord save me or I will perish . The greatest truth is Jesus came to save sinners and I am the worst . Not my will but His will. If you can't comprehend how Jesus saved me because it is not your salvation experience don't question it or try to categorize me.
Those who trust in Jesus will be saved,God made a promise they will not be disappointed. Jesus loved the sinner, He only had problems with the teachers of that day who hated those heathens. You are Israels teacher and you don't know these things. When you try to save the saved this is when you will run into difficulties because it is ridiculous.
"Whoever preaches in this fashion may preach much of the gospel, but the whole gospel of the free grace of God in its fulness he has yet to learn. In our own day certain preachers assure us that a man must he regenerated before we may bid him believe in Jesus Christ; some degree of a work of grace in the heart being, in their judgment, the only warrant to believe. This also is false. It takes away a gospel for sinners and offers us a gospel for saints. It is anything but a ministry of free grace."
C.H. Spurgeon
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That's not true at all.
The bible does not teach that.
A person's regeneration process can be very lengthy and there is not a verse that says otherwise.
Please show me a NT verse that states that the two are NOT done at same time, in same process to save us?
I disagree with you.
waiting for Luke to give us NT verse that shows they are seperted, and not sone same time as parts of salvation process!
If we have no free will to choose or reject Christ, then that means that Judas had no choice but to betray Jesus? God condemned him in order to use him? I cannot believe a holy, righteous, and loving God would do that. Jesus said, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me." John 12:32. ALL, not just the "elect". Jesus came to "seek and to save the lost", and that includes ALL people and not just a few as some believe. He calls and it's up to us to respond or reject that call. The will of God is that NO one will perish, but not everyone will accept His free gift of forgiveness and salvation.
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psalms109:31
Active Member
If we have no free will to choose or reject Christ, then that means that Judas had no choice but to betray Jesus? God condemned him in order to use him? I cannot believe a holy, righteous, and loving God would do that.
I believe in a free agency, and by His will revealed to us by His word we fight our will to disobey and in Christ we will not lose.
Spurgeon also believed free will is ridiculous, but I wish you would not focus on that, but this his explanation of why, for only He has defeated the flesh and only in Him we will.
"Freedom cannot belong to will any more than ponderability can belong to electricity. They are altogether different things. Free agency we may believe in, but free-will is simply ridiculous. The will is well known by all to be directed by the understanding, to be moved by motives, to be guided by other parts of the soul, and to be a secondary thing."
C.H. Spurgeon
I understand and will not condemn no one who has trusted in Jesus no matter if we see our will differently.
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I believe in a free agency, and by His will revealed to us by His word we fight our will to disobey and in Christ we will not lose.
Spurgeon also believed free will is ridiculous, but I wish you would not focus on that, but this his explanation of why, for only He has defeated the flesh and only in Him we will.
"Freedom cannot belong to will any more than ponderability can belong to electricity. They are altogether different things. Free agency we may believe in, but free-will is simply ridiculous. The will is well known by all to be directed by the understanding, to be moved by motives, to be guided by other parts of the soul, and to be a secondary thing."
C.H. Spurgeon
I understand and will not condemn no one who has trusted in Jesus no matter if we see our will differently.
The will is not free from influence, but that does not mean a person cannot truly make a choice.
For example, I once found a wallet with about $500 in it. This was back in the 70's and was a lot of money. I also happened to be pretty broke at the time (married with young children) and could have really used the money. Was I tempted for a few seconds to keep the money? You bet. I could have pocketed the money and thrown the wallet in the bushes, no one was around, no one saw me. But I also knew that God would want me to return the money. To keep it would have been stealing. So, this was an influence as well.
Anyway, in this one occasion I did the right thing and contacted the owner and returned the wallet. I wish I could always say I have chosen the right thing to do, but that would be a lie.
The point is, it is a false argument to talk about a will free from influence. Such a thing does not exist, it is simply a distraction and deflection from the real issue. The real issue is whether a man can choose to do what is right or what is wrong, and all men have this ability. This is what most folks mean by free will.
I know you love Spurgeon Psalms, but he was a man like any other. He was often very inconsistent, at times it seems he could not quite make up his mind what he believed. Depending on his sermon, he could sound like a strict Calvinist, his next sermon he sounded like an Arminian.
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psalms109:31
Active Member
The will is not free from influence, but that does not mean a person cannot truly make a choice.
For example, I once found a wallet with about $500 in it. This was back in the 70's and was a lot of money. I also happened to be pretty broke at the time (married with young children) and could have really used the money. Was I tempted for a few seconds to keep the money? You bet. I could have pocketed the money and thrown the wallet in the bushes, no one was around, no one saw me. But I also knew that God would want me to return the money. To keep it would have been stealing. So, this was an influence as well.
Anyway, in this one occasion I did the right thing and contacted the owner and returned the wallet. I wish I could always say I have chosen the right thing to do, but that would be a lie.
The point is, it is a false argument to talk about a will free from influence. Such a thing does not exist, it is simply a distraction and deflection from the real issue. The real issue is whether a man can choose to do what is right or what is wrong, and all men have this ability. This is what most folks mean by free will.
I know you love Spurgeon Psalms, but he was a man like any other. He was often very inconsistent, at times it seems he could not quite make up his mind what he believed. Depending on his sermon, he could sound like a strict Calvinist, his next sermon he sounded like an Arminian.
My will is to keep the wallet I will not deny that, but my free agency and my conscience to do the right thing taught in my by my parents teaching my free agency choose to return that wallet. My will still wants that wallet, but I fought against it. This is what God wants to teach us to fight our will and follow His will.
Ezekiel 18 :
23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign Lord. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
24 “But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.
25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Hear, O house of Israel: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust? 26 If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin, he will die for it; because of the sin he has committed he will die. 27 But if a wicked man turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he will save his life. 28 Because he considers all the offenses he has committed and turns away from them, he will surely live; he will not die. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Are my ways unjust, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are unjust?
30 “Therefore, O house of Israel, I will judge you, each one according to his ways, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!
All I'm saying is that those who demand that a free will be absolutely free of outside or internal influence are putting forth a false form of argument, no such thing exists.
What matters is if whether a person can choose to do right or wrong, and it is obvious all people have this ability. Even non-Christians will often do the right thing and return a lost wallet, in fact, we had a person in our town who found $9000 dollars in a paper bag and returned it just this week. The money belonged to a business and was their weekly deposit, the owner dropped it.
No one is enslaved to sin in the sense they are compelled to sin. Even non-Christians often do what is right. If they were truly enslaved by sin they would ALWAYS do the most evil thing possible.
People are enslaved to sin in that they are condemned to death by sin and cannot escape except for the grace of God through Jesus Christ.
What matters is if whether a person can choose to do right or wrong, and it is obvious all people have this ability. Even non-Christians will often do the right thing and return a lost wallet, in fact, we had a person in our town who found $9000 dollars in a paper bag and returned it just this week. The money belonged to a business and was their weekly deposit, the owner dropped it.
No one is enslaved to sin in the sense they are compelled to sin. Even non-Christians often do what is right. If they were truly enslaved by sin they would ALWAYS do the most evil thing possible.
People are enslaved to sin in that they are condemned to death by sin and cannot escape except for the grace of God through Jesus Christ.
psalms109:31
Active Member
All I'm saying is that those who demand that a free will be absolutely free of outside or internal influence are putting forth a false form of argument, no such thing exists.
What matters is if whether a person can choose to do right or wrong, and it is obvious all people have this ability. Even non-Christians will often do the right thing and return a lost wallet, in fact, we had a person in our town who found $9000 dollars in a paper bag and returned it just this week. The money belonged to a business and was their weekly deposit, the owner dropped it.
No one is enslaved to sin in the sense they are compelled to sin. Even non-Christians often do what is right. If they were truly enslaved by sin they would ALWAYS do the most evil thing possible.
People are enslaved to sin in that they are condemned to death by sin and cannot escape except for the grace of God through Jesus Christ.
Romans 8 "5 Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind of sinful man[Or mind set on the flesh] is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7 the sinful mind[Or the mind set on the flesh] is hostile to God. It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.
9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.
12 Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, 14 because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship.[Or adoption] And by him we cry, “Abba,[Aramaic for Father] Father.” 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs —heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
Our will always go toward our sinful nature. It is something within our soul that either follows the Spirit of God and live or follow the sinful will of of our sinful nature and die. I do not see it as the will would, but there is something within us that makes this choice. I see it as the free agency not the will of the flesh. If we do any good, it doesn't come from our will but our free agency, taught to fight the will. I will not deny denial is not a way to realize we have a problem. My will would keep the wallet. The only way to go toward God is walking by the Spirit the word of life.
Romans 7 :
21 So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
1 Corinthians 9:27
No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.
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What matters is if whether a person can choose to do right or wrong, and it is obvious all people have this ability.Even non-Christians will often do the right thing and return a lost wallet...
It is not obvious from scripture:
Isaiah 64:6 6 For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.
Winman said:No one is enslaved to sin in the sense they are compelled to sin.
Romans 6:16 16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
Ephesians 2:1-3 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
"in which you formerly walked".
"Walked" is synonymous with practicing. There is not one single verse in the bible that indicates a sinful person can act righteously. Poof?
Hebrews 11:6 6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him..."
The person who does good works does so out of faith. The person who has faith is saved. Ergo, a person who does not have faith cannot do a good work. A person may do a work that is beneficial. The deed itself may be good, but the work performed is not. If man could do good works while in his lost state then he has something to brag about, but not before God.
Romans 4:2 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
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I don't believe in free will. We are saved by the will of God.
Lord save me or I will perish . The greatest truth is Jesus came to save sinners and I am the worst . Not my will but His will. If you can't comprehend how Jesus saved me because it is not your salvation experience don't question it or try to categorize me.
Those who trust in Jesus will be saved,God made a promise they will not be disappointed. Jesus loved the sinner, He only had problems with the teachers of that day who hated those heathens. You are Israels teacher and you don't know these things. When you try to save the saved this is when you will run into difficulties because it is ridiculous.
"Whoever preaches in this fashion may preach much of the gospel, but the whole gospel of the free grace of God in its fulness he has yet to learn. In our own day certain preachers assure us that a man must he regenerated before we may bid him believe in Jesus Christ; some degree of a work of grace in the heart being, in their judgment, the only warrant to believe. This also is false. It takes away a gospel for sinners and offers us a gospel for saints. It is anything but a ministry of free grace."
C.H. Spurgeon
Please forgive me. I read your original post wrong.
This verse does not say one word about a person being compelled to sin.It is not obvious from scripture:
Isaiah 64:6 6 For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.
Romans 6:16 16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
This verse says to whom we YIELD (KJB) ourselves servants to obey, we become his servant. The word yield implies we have choice. It does not say we are COMPELLED to sin.
Ephesians 2:1-3 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
"in which you formerly walked".
"Walked" is synonymous with practicing. There is not one single verse in the bible that indicates a sinful person can act righteously. Poof?
You are absolutely wrong.
Eze 18:27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
This verse says the wicked can consider his ways and turn from his wickedness, and if he does he shall live.
Hebrews 11:6 6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him..."
The person who does good works does so out of faith. The person who has faith is saved. Ergo, a person who does not have faith cannot do a good work. A person may do a work that is beneficial. The deed itself may be good, but the work performed is not. If man could do good works while in his lost state then he has something to brag about, but not before God.
Romans 4:2 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
I agree without faith it is impossible to please God, but there is not one word of scripture that says an unregenerate man cannot believe. To the contrary, there is scripture that shows an unregenerate man can believe. Romans 8:9 clearly says that unless the Holy Spirit dwells in a man, that man is not spritual, he is "in the flesh".
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
No man is spiritual until he has the indwelling Holy Spirit, he is still "in the flesh", yet Paul's question demands the answer that a person does not receive the Holy Spirit until he first hears the gospel and believes. Therefore the natural man has the ability to believe. After he believes he receives the Spirit and is no longer in the flesh.
So, there is indeed scripture that shows the natural man can believe and afterwards receives the Spirit.
This verse does not say one word about a person being compelled to sin.
For the natural man all his deeds are done in sin. All of them are like an unclean garment. He is not able to please God, nor is there anything righteous in him (Romans 3:10).
Winman said:This verse says to whom we YIELD (KJB) ourselves servants to obey, we become his servant. The word yield implies we have choice. It does not say we are COMPELLED to sin.
Paul is using rhetoric to make a point. The fact is that the unsaved man is already yielded to sin.
Romans 6:17-21 7 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification. 20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death.
Paul is talking about the Corinthians previous spiritual state prior to salvation. They were slaves to sin. They were bound to sin. While a person is a slave to sin the are "free in regard to righteousness" (Rom. 6:20). This is a euphemism that means anything but free. There is no freedom in sin or in the natural state.
Winman said:I agree without faith it is impossible to please God, but there is not one word of scripture that says an unregenerate man cannot believe.
1 Corinthians 2:14 14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
Cannot, cannot, cannot.
I'll end it here for now because I have lesson to prepare for tomorrow.
Goodnight.
This verse does not say one word about a person being compelled to sin.
This verse says to whom we YIELD (KJB) ourselves servants to obey, we become his servant. The word yield implies we have choice. It does not say we are COMPELLED to sin.
You are absolutely wrong.
Eze 18:27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
This verse says the wicked can consider his ways and turn from his wickedness, and if he does he shall live.
I agree without faith it is impossible to please God, but there is not one word of scripture that says an unregenerate man cannot believe. To the contrary, there is scripture that shows an unregenerate man can believe. Romans 8:9 clearly says that unless the Holy Spirit dwells in a man, that man is not spritual, he is "in the flesh".
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
No man is spiritual until he has the indwelling Holy Spirit, he is still "in the flesh", yet Paul's question demands the answer that a person does not receive the Holy Spirit until he first hears the gospel and believes. Therefore the natural man has the ability to believe. After he believes he receives the Spirit and is no longer in the flesh.
So, there is indeed scripture that shows the natural man can believe and afterwards receives the Spirit.
Paul was enslaved by his sin principle even AFTER being saved By god! Romans shows to us that even after saved by God, a believer can be defeated and still found in sin, but by submitting to Christ, yielding to the Holy spirit in us, walking in his power, we can experience freedom in christ!
So we can still be on bondage, but jesus can and does set us free IF we chose to do it his way!
Since christians can still be in bondage, how can the unsaved with NO help overcome bondage by sin nature?
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markwaltermd
New Member
No. Regeneration does proceed faith, but it happens so quickly that it is indistinguishable from the whole. I separate from those who believe a person can be regenerate for days, weeks, months, or years prior to their conversion. Once the Spirit moves to bring about conversion, He moves!
I don't know. I'm of the opinion that God moves when and how he sees fit.
convicted1
Guest
For the natural man all his deeds are done in sin. All of them are like an unclean garment. He is not able to please God, nor is there anything righteous in him (Romans 3:10).
Paul is using rhetoric to make a point. The fact is that the unsaved man is already yielded to sin.
Romans 6:17-21 7 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification. 20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death.
Paul is talking about the Corinthians previous spiritual state prior to salvation. They were slaves to sin. They were bound to sin. While a person is a slave to sin the are "free in regard to righteousness" (Rom. 6:20). This is a euphemism that means anything but free. There is no freedom in sin or in the natural state.
1 Corinthians 2:14 14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
Cannot, cannot, cannot.
I'll end it here for now because I have lesson to prepare for tomorrow.
Goodnight.
So, lemme get this straight. If a sinner is walking, or driving by, and sees someone drowning, if he stops, jumps in and saves this person, its a sin, eventhough he did the right thing. If he keeps on driving, or fails to stop walking, and allows the man to drown, its sin. Either way, this man has sinned in y'alls camp. I agree that none of this can save him/her, but if he saves someone from drowning, in no way is that a sin. If he allows that person to drown, then that is.
So, lemme get this straight. If a sinner is walking, or driving by, and sees someone drowning, if he stops, jumps in and saves this person, its a sin, eventhough he did the right thing. If he keeps on driving, or fails to stop walking, and allows the man to drown, its sin. Either way, this man has sinned in y'alls camp. I agree that none of this can save him/her, but if he saves someone from drowning, in no way is that a sin. If he allows that person to drown, then that is.
Rescuing a drowning person is certainly beneficial for the person being rescued. The question is whether that rescue is a meritorious work on the part of the rescuer. In society's eyes it is. In God's eyes it is not. The sinner has not performed a good work because scripture says that "all our righteous deeds are as filthy rags." I never said the "good works" of a sinner are actually sin. The "good works" of a sinner are not seen as good according to the standard scripture sets for good.
So, lemme get this straight. If a sinner is walking, or driving by, and sees someone drowning, if he stops, jumps in and saves this person, its a sin, eventhough he did the right thing. If he keeps on driving, or fails to stop walking, and allows the man to drown, its sin. Either way, this man has sinned in y'alls camp. I agree that none of this can save him/her, but if he saves someone from drowning, in no way is that a sin. If he allows that person to drown, then that is.
Hello Willis,
4 An high look, and a proud heart, and the plowing of the wicked, is sin
Why is the plowing of the wicked....sin..
A field needs to be worked or plowed......so why is it sin when the wicked do it?????:wavey: