Sobering Misconception

[Dr. Bob]

When folks would ask me "When will Jesus return? When will evil be judged and righteousness prevail in the world?" I always summarized it by saying "When the last of the elect are saved and the Father gives the word to His Son to go get His bride."

Jesus would not return a minute before that last soul is saved.

Reading with my bride about heaven/life/death (using some of Randy Alcorn's material for devotion time together). Rev 6:9-11 was referenced in another matter, but blew me away.

When the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been martyred for the Word of God and for the witness they had borne. They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and righteous, how long before You will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

Then they were each given a white robe and told to wait patiently a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

Wow. The return of Jesus for His own/to rule in His righteous kingdom and finally judge evil is NOT waiting for the last soul to be saved. It is waiting for the last of His elect chosen to die for the faith to be martyred.

Sobering.

 

[webdog]

This would have been good discussion to add to the 2 Peter 3:9 thread where that verse is used to support God waiting on His elect to repent.

I don't see how there is room for both perspectives.

 

[Jarthur001]

This would have been good discussion to add to the 2 Peter 3:9 thread where that verse is used to support God waiting on His elect to repent.

I don't see how there is room for both perspectives.

This is a good time to allow all of Scripture point to our understanding of the truth.

Both of these passages as well as others tell us that God has a plan and it will come to pass in his own time frame. He not only knows who the elect are, He also knows who the martyred will be. Each and every one of them. And ..........the plan will not go to its final state till each number is accounted for.

Poole says here...

God had yet more faithful witnesses to be martyred who would die for the faith.
​

Pulpit Commentary..

But the church's suffering has its limit definitely marked
​

Alford sees this as the same people, but I do't follow his logic on it. To me it seems like those that have been martyred and those that will someday be martyred. But in both cases it is God that knows who this is, and God only.

Fausset too says this only shows that the elect is a fixed number.

Barnes...

There were others who would yet be called to suffer as they had done, and they must wait until all that number was complete.
​

SUM

God knows all the stars...

God knows each hair in your head.

God know all of the elect.

God knows all of the martyed.

God knows, because he has decreed all things.

 

[lastday]

Lastday

Dr. Bob,

Good point:

"Then they were each given a white robe and told to wait patiently a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been". Rev.6:11.

Wow. The return of Jesus for His own/to rule in His righteous kingdom and finally judge evil is NOT waiting for the last soul to be saved. It is waiting for the last of His elect chosen to die for the faith to be martyred.

A still more "sobering" thought is that both ideas, i.e., (1) the last one saved being the final name "written in the Lamb's Book of Life" and
(2) the death of the last one who must die in God's plan,
should both be swept up in the stated fact that "every believer will be raised up on the last day"! Jno. 6:38-40.

We not only already know the Last Day occurs "immediately after the end of 1260 days of Great Tribulation"; but "we will know the end (of days) is near when we see the abomination standing in the holy place"!! Matt.24:29,33.

It just may be that, as the Old Testament dispensation of law was completed with Christ's death in the "fullness of time," so the New Testament economy of grace may be fulfilled in a given number of 19-year solar/lunar time cycles that began at Christ's first advent and will be completed at His second advent. The last day will occur shortly after the Two Prophets "finish their 1260-day task to manifest God's Kingdom Power and Christ's authority" by their being raised up on the "Last Day...as soon as the last believer is killed who must be killed"!!! Mel

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Very interesting Bob...thanks

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

This is a good time to allow all of Scripture point to our understanding of the truth.

Both of these passages as well as others tell us that God has a plan and it will come to pass in his own time frame. He not only knows who the elect are, He also knows who the martyred will be. Each and every one of them. And ..........the plan will not go to its final state till each number is accounted for.

Poole says here...

God had yet more faithful witnesses to be martyred who would die for the faith.
​

Pulpit Commentary..

But the church's suffering has its limit definitely marked
​

Alford sees this as the same people, but I do't follow his logic on it. To me it seems like those that have been martyred and those that will someday be martyred. But in both cases it is God that knows who this is, and God only.

Fausset too says this only shows that the elect is a fixed number.

Barnes...

There were others who would yet be called to suffer as they had done, and they must wait until all that number was complete.
​

SUM

God knows all the stars...

God knows each hair in your head.

God know all of the elect.

God knows all of the martyed.

God knows, because he has decreed all things.

That sounded like a short sermon....thank you. :applause:
Now how does it correlate to Webs question if you please?

 

[Jarthur001]

That sounded like a short sermon....thank you. :applause:
Now how does it correlate to Webs question if you please?

Yes...well...

Both are saying that God has a plan. Both the elect must be born, drawn, and believe...as well as those that will be martyed must be born, drawn, believe and die for the faith.

God has a time table.

I should add.......

That is this is the way Historicist can make all of Scripture fit together. There are as you know 4 schools of interpretation to Revelation. The Preterist would say this event has already came about and therefore they have no need to put the two together. The Idealist, don't need to put them together. Its only the Historicist and the Futurist that must have a understanding of both of them working together.

I offer one way for them to "correlate". There maybe more.

Bottom line….there is "room" to allow it to fit together. The problem is that we try often to take our understanding to fall.

Which comes 1st?

I don't know for sure based only on these two verses. The Bible is not clear. But it is clear that both all of the elect must believe (2 Peter) ....as well as all the set aside martyrs of the faith must die before Christ comes, from the Historicist view point.


How would you make both fit?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Jarthur....I am but a humble man who relys on pastors & then the HS to fit it together.