Sodomites and Baptists

[Songbird]

Well, a former Southern Baptist Church in my hometown (which is smack dab in the middle of the Bible Belt), baptized to opening gay men a few years ago. Fortunately the county Baptist Association immediately kicked the church out of the association.

When the pastor was interviewed on TV he sounded more like a pastor from a very liberal denomination and not Baptist at all.

 

[AVL1984]

Originally posted by J.R.Maddox:
[QB] </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Again, there is a difference between "cannot" and will not. And, they won't necessarily be given "ye ol' boot", as you stated. The SBC national convention is very aware of these churches. The issue has been brought up by several delegates for the past few years.

Your knowledge and understanding of the SBC and it's polity is painfully lacking. First of all we do not have 'delegates'...we have messengers...big difference.</font>[/QUOTE]AVL...A matter of symantics and my typing at 3 am without sleep. Either way your messengers were given that position by the church. I fully understand the SBC having been in it back in the early 80's and then again for the past four years. So, until you know what you're talking about, you might want to close your pie hole.

If you don't know the difference then you should not comment. When you say something like that you loose your credibility to speak to the subject matter because you are obviously pulling your information out of the bottom desk drawer of opinion and not fact.If you want to know the difference between a messenger and a delegate then as you say..."You do the research'.

AVL....Again, see above. You're not quite as smart as you think you are, JR.

There are not SBC church's that are openly supporting Homosexuality in friendly cooperation with the convention...there were some...they have been removed from the convention.

Hogwash. There are here in Tennessee, and there are in Georgia, and a few in NC. You SBC people will go to any lengths to defend that lie that the SBC has been rescued from liberalism.

Here in Texas we just removed from fellowship a church that was simply allowing their facilities to be used by a advocacy group for weekly meetings because they were deemed "Gay friendly" (The advocacy group, not the church) and by the way...GOOD FOR US! Any church that advocates either passively or aggressively that kind of mindset needs to be removed.

Oh, yes, again...good for you. Removing a church from fellowship because it supports anything shows an ability for other churches to control any one church, therefore making the SBC church's non-autonomous. And don't give me that garbage about the SBC doesn't impose it's will on the churches, because that's hogwash, too. The way it forced the Holman Bible down our throats here wasn't pressure on an automous church...no...never....horse puckey!

Again, I agree with rbell...name 3 church's that are openly advocating homosexuality and I will show you 3 church's that will no longer be SBC in about 3 months. THEY WILL BE REMOVED FROM THE CONVENTION!

Maybe the SBC should be looking at their own churches, especially since the SBC headquarters isn't too far from here. I don't owe you or anyone else the names of these churches. And, why would it take 3 months for the churches to be excluded? Wow, seems like an awfully long time for a Godly body...a body that has been rescued from liberalism. Give me a break!

[quote}Maybe you should read the BFM 2000 and the resolutions that have come out of the SBC before you comment on what you do not know anything about. [/QUOTE]

I have read it, several times, and even helped form a church in the area that intends to go SBC, of which I am ashamed because of it's liberal leanings. But, no, in case you're wondering, it's not one of those that supports homosexuals in the SBC. It's more of a charismatic/apostolic type thing. Glad we left that mess.

You can try to goad me into giving you the names if you wish, but, it's not going to help you. The local conventions and the state conventions have known about these churches for some time. It would be hard for me to believe that the headquarters for the SBC wouldn't have been notified by other churches. Yep, the SBC has surely been rescued from liberalism! I find that hard to believe. If it ever was, it has declined since that time that it split, and now the SBC is getting far closer to being what they got rid of.

 

[rbell]

AVL...if the SBC is so reprobate, liberal, and beyond any form of redemption...why were you in it for the past four years?

And I'm still convinced that the reason you won't "help us" in knowing of even three SBC (not CBF) churches that affirm gays, is because you can't back that up. Undocumented claims don't hold much validity.

Buddy, you seem really, really angry.

 

[Songbird]

That was supposed to have said "two openly gay men..." sorry!

 

[rbell]

Originally posted by Songbird:
That was supposed to have said "two openly gay men..." sorry!

Holy typo, Batman! I missed that funny the first time around...

 

[AVL1984]

Originally posted by rbell:
AVL...if the SBC is so reprobate, liberal, and beyond any form of redemption...why were you in it for the past four years?

And I'm still convinced that the reason you won't "help us" in knowing of even three SBC (not CBF) churches that affirm gays, is because you can't back that up. Undocumented claims don't hold much validity.

Buddy, you seem really, really angry.

Ah, the typical comebacks..."You can't back them up"...the difference is I WON'T back them up, and that ticks you off...admit it. You can use the "undocumented claims" ploy all you want, but, as I stated, YOU are not getting the answers...The SBC already has them.

Me? Angry? I think not...Another typical ploy from the SBC playbook. Keep on trying, rbell. Maybe one day, you'll get it right.

 

[J.R.Maddox]

Well, a former Southern Baptist Church in my hometown (which is smack dab in the middle of the Bible Belt), baptized to opening gay men a few years ago. Fortunately the county Baptist Association immediately kicked the church out of the association.

Thats my point...they ARE GONE!

j

 

[J.R.Maddox]

***Personal attack deleted***

The thing is that when I read your retorts, you don't sound like you know anything about Baptist polity at all...you go on about the SBC "Cramming" the Holman bible down our throats. GEE, I have been a pastor in the SBC for 16 years...never once has the SBC tried to cram anything down my throat...do you even understand what a convention is and how it works? DO you know anything at all about local church autonomy. DO you understand in the least bit the difference between congregation and Presbyterian (federalist) polity? You go on and on with your pseudo conspiracy theory approach about Southern Baptists, their liberal leaning ways, their openness to all things wrong, yet in your profile you say you are Southern Baptist and at the same time you say something about starting a church and 'helping' them become southern Baptist, and then I don't know what you meant by the Charismatic/apostolic thing. why in the world would you be a part of and help others to be a part of something that is so wrong? Again, credibility.

Again, brother...how about some facts...not just accusations that have no backing.

**Personal Attack deleted**

Moderator warning!! Posters will conduct themselves in a Christ like spirit or be subject to suspension!
J

[ April 18, 2006, 09:19 AM: Message edited by: blackbird ]

 

[rbell]

AVL,

my friend, there's a whole lot of stuff in this world more likely to tick me off than a BB thread...water off a duck's back here.

God's on His throne, my church is absolutely rockin', and folks are coming to Jesus. I couldn't be happier. So whether you respond to my questions or not, I'm cool either way...

I will restate a question you didn't address: if the SBC is so reprobate, liberal, and beyond any form of redemption...why were you in it for the past four years?

 

[AVL1984]

Originally posted by J.R.Maddox:
***Personal attack deleted***

The thing is that when I read your retorts, you don't sound like you know anything about Baptist polity at all...you go on about the SBC "Cramming" the Holman bible down our throats. GEE, I have been a pastor in the SBC for 16 years...never once has the SBC tried to cram anything down my throat...do you even understand what a convention is and how it works? DO you know anything at all about local church autonomy. DO you understand in the least bit the difference between congregation and Presbyterian (federalist) polity? You go on and on with your pseudo conspiracy theory approach about Southern Baptists, their liberal leaning ways, their openness to all things wrong, yet in your profile you say you are Southern Baptist and at the same time you say something about starting a church and 'helping' them become southern Baptist, and then I don't know what you meant by the Charismatic/apostolic thing. why in the world would you be a part of and help others to be a part of something that is so wrong? Again, credibility.

**Personal attack deleted***

Again, brother...how about some facts...not just accusations that have no backing.

J

OH, yes...whatever....I've been in the ministry for 22 years, and I don't particularly care what you think. You're just a few words on a screen on a message board. If you looked at my profile as you stated, I am no longer SBC. The church we were in up until 5 or 6 weeks ago, which is now defunct, had voted to go SBC, but went to the devil instead. They went into all sorts of liberal standings, and we left. My profile says that I am at Victory Baptist Church...it is far from SBC. And again, I have nothing to prove to you since the SBC knows of the situation and has done nothing to date about the churches involved.

Me? Angry? I don't think so. But, I can tell you I have better things to do with my time than to go round and round with someone who defends the SBC tooth and nail. I know a lot more about church polity than you think..and I know a lot more about the SBC than you think. Continue to yammer on all you want...I'm done with this thread. As stated, I've got better things to do with my time than to waste it here being told I can't defend my position. Apparently it does tick you off because I won't tell you the names. All I can say is "Oh well". I'm glad the SBC works for you....it doesn't for me. I wish you well, friend.

[ April 18, 2006, 09:21 AM: Message edited by: blackbird ]

 

[AVL1984]

Originally posted by rbell:
AVL,

my friend, there's a whole lot of stuff in this world more likely to tick me off than a BB thread...water off a duck's back here.

God's on His throne, my church is absolutely rockin', and folks are coming to Jesus. I couldn't be happier. So whether you respond to my questions or not, I'm cool either way...

I will restate a question you didn't address: if the SBC is so reprobate, liberal, and beyond any form of redemption...why were you in it for the past four years?

My wife and I went to the SBC in 2002 because of the abuses of a hyperfundamentalist IFB church. God used the SBC to help my wife and I have some time to heal, recover, and He ended up bringing us "Full Circle", which is the name of a book that I'm working on. It was during my time in the SBC that I questioned the teachings of the Ind. Fundy Bapt churches and why I believed what I believed, if I believed anything at all, or was just brainwashed into believeing some extra-biblical doctrines.

During our time in the SBC, we attended a very convservative SBC church. But, some events in the church started leading that church down the road to more liberal positions, and many of the people who were so-called fundamentalists were attacked and eventually chased away from their positions of leadership and staff in the church. Things continued to get worse in the church, and we had a minor split just after the building program was completed. Since we had moved out of town and the church was so far away, we joined a small country church (SBC...both were, not the other faction that split as you and the other brother have tried to imply several times). After several months in the church, events took place which gave a deacon more power, and the balance in the church turned. We were gone for six weeks because of my mother in laws hospitalization from a fall in her home, her hospitalization, diagnosis of terminal lung cancer (they gave her 45 days to live) and then her death. We were there for the funeral and some other legal matters, and when we came back at the end of the six weeks, we walked into a war in the church. The deacon had gained a majority of the control in the church and there was a major vote that evening on the changing of the church by-laws and constitution. The deacon packed the church, and his side won. The pastor and assistant left the church, and I was left as interim of the church. After three weeks, I was led out of there, praise the Lord! These people wanted to follow the deacon more than the Bible. We ended up with those who had split in forming a new church.

In the first few weeks and months, the new church was on the right track. But, our pastor started taking it down a road that wasn't Biblical. He later resigned, leaving the associate pastor, who was of a Charismatic/Pentecostal background as pastor. I was a non-staff preacher for the church because of it's size. This church started going down the apostolic/charismatic road, they adopted a constitution and bylaws that would have allowed divorced pastors, single pastors and in some cases women pastors. I had been on the constitution and bylaw committee. But, I was the only Fundamentalist on the committee. When I missed a meeting because of an illness in the family, before the document was presented to the church for confirmation as the one that they wanted to adopt, it had been changed to what I stated above.
They wanted to adopt "private prayer language" positions, and we didn't find that as scriptural, nor did several others who debated all the above items. At any rate, because we felt the church could be educated and possibly turn around, we stayed. The Lord hadn't told us to go yet. Plus, though we had voted to become SBC, we had no sponsor church to present us for membership, and were essentially an independent Baptist Church. We had recommended that they stay that way from the beginning, and knowing that it would take time to be sponsored, etc., and brought into the convention, we stayed. But, when the church took the leanings that were mentioned above, we knew it was time to leave, and the Lord opened the door for us to do so. Three to four weeks later, the church went defunct when the pastor resigned.

We had been visiting around in IFB churches for several weeks, and started attending Victory, and will probably be joining there in a few weeks.

 

[J.R.Maddox]

This is my final post on this subject. Apparently the Mods felt I was personally attacking AVL. I guess it is ok to use ad homonym attacks on the SBC and her church's and men like Johnny Hunt (another thread) but my comments were deemed as a personal attack. I will abide by the rules of the board and I offer my personal apology to AVL if my 'verbal sparing' seemed too abrasive. AVL...I apologize...I do not have to agree with you in order to dialogue and be your friend. I have read many of your posts and you and I are much more on the same page than one would think.

TO the moderator...a personal message would be appreciated on why my post was deemed a personal attack when earlier I was told to "Shut my Pie Hole", and that was not deleted...since I am new I would like to know what line I crossed.

Now I got to go and weed out the Homosexuals and women preachers in my convention (Just joking guys...everybody relax)

J

 

[AVL1984]

JR, I didn't take it as a personal attack. I agree that we don't have to disagree to be friends and Brothers in the Lord. But, your apology is accepted.