SOL Editor declares "Calvinism leaves a dearth"

[webdog]

Your humanism and man centered theology is just that... man centered.

...and your strawmen are just that...strawmen. This is NOT what the majority of non cal's believe, and you know it.

 

[reformedbeliever]

...and your strawmen are just that...strawmen. This is NOT what the majority of non cal's believe, and you know it.

Strawman? What strawman? I answered something skypair contended. How is that a strawman? To ask him if he has read Psalms 139 is a strawman? Get real webdog.

 

[David Lamb]

Fatalist means that all things are decided already -- all is fate. Calvinists appear so believe this.

I don't think God is fatatlistic -- I believe that Calvinists make their God out to be fatalistic.

skypair

I think "fatalism" is not the right word to apply to almighty God, but the bible certainly tells us that all He has planned will come to pass. For example, Isaiah 46.9-10:

9 Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,’

Then there's Ephesians 1.6-9:

7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace
8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence,
9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself,

I get the impression that many who don't believe the "Doctrines of Grace" have a wrong idea about those like me who do. Let me assure you that we don't believe that sinners might as well just sit back and do nothing, and if God wants to save them He will. Nor do we believe that evangelistic outreach is a waste of time; far from it. The biblical balance between God's sovereignty and man's responsibility is exemplified in the words of Jesus Christ Himself in John 6.37:

All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

Yours by God's Grace,

 

[webdog]

Strawman? What strawman? I answered something skypair contended. How is that a strawman? To ask him if he has read Psalms 139 is a strawman? Get real webdog.

You know what the strawman is...contending that non cal's are "human centered". Come on! Quit misrepresenting what we believe. I'm as real as you get.

 

[Scott J]

Yes, and many of those same churches persecuted Baptists before during and after the Rebellion.. So you defend them?

Same question could be asked of you concerning the AV1611.

 

[Scott J]

The same thing is true of Baptists in Britain. The first Baptist churches here were "General Baptist" - that is they believed that Christ died for all without exception, but only those who used their free will to exercise belief would be saved. These died out or degenerated into unitarianism within a century.

Has it ever been any different than this?

Any group that ascribes to an elevated view of certain men or man in general degenerates into doctrinal and practical error. It seems to be inevitable. Unfortunately, those with a biblically low view of man and high view of God often degenerate into the group you describe.

This seems to fit the cyclical pattern we see in history.

 

[reformedbeliever]

You know what the strawman is...contending that non cal's are "human centered". Come on! Quit misrepresenting what we believe. I'm as real as you get.

What else would you call a theology that puts man's will above God's? When man's free choice is put sovereign over God's choice, I call that man centered theology. You call it what you want. A strawman if you will.

 

[webdog]

God has more than one will. He has a permissive will and a declarative will. The problem I see is in your theology failing to separate the two. This leads to the heretical God authoring all our actions, sin included.

 

[reformedbeliever]

God has more than one will. He has a permissive will and a declarative will. The problem I see is in your theology failing to separate the two. This leads to the heretical God authoring all our actions, sin included.

In the biblical view, He is not the author of sin. He simply allows men to act according to their nature. Even regenerate believers act according to the flesh on occasion. I never make God the author of sin. I believe He has decreed all things... because that is what the Bible says. I just believe that when it comes to sin, what men meant for evil, God meant for good. Do you have a problem with that?

 

[webdog]

You state in the biblical view He is not the author of sin...and later state He decrees all things. How is sin not part of "all things"?

He simply allows men to act according to their nature.

This has not been proven biblically.

I just believe that when it comes to sin, what men meant for evil, God meant for good. Do you have a problem with that?

No problem at all, we agree on this.

 

[npetreley]

You know what the strawman is...contending that non cal's are "human centered". Come on! Quit misrepresenting what we believe. I'm as real as you get.

That does not meet the definition of a straw man. A straw man is a deliberately absurd simile or non-sequitur of the opposing point of view which is meant to discredit that point of view.

Here's an example of a straw man: If Calvinism is true, then all men are nothing but robots.

I believe that free-willism is, indeed, man-centered. That isn't a straw man, it's an opinion of the source or nature of free-willism.

 

[webdog]

I stand by what I said. Stating all non calvinists or freewillers are "human centered" is a strawman.

So if I stated I believe before it...it's no longer a strawman?

 

[Martin]

Fatalist means that all things are decided already -- all is fate. Calvinists appear so believe this.

I don't think God is fatatlistic -- I believe that Calvinists make their God out to be fatalistic.

==But if Calvinists claim that God is the one who has decided all things already, then by saying Calvinism is fatalism you are, in effect, saying God's will, plan, purpose (etc) is (or could be) fatalistic.

 

[Jim1999]

ONe day I would like to see where some people get their concept of Calvinism. They obviously have never studied it in the least.

Lord save us from such ignorance! It does get wearisome.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[webdog]

The same rings true for those who are not calvinists.

 

[l_PETE_l]

The same rings true for those who are not calvinists.

I do not agree with this at all. Most of the Calvinists I know, including myself, held the other postion first. Many of the opposing statements I read, I have said to others. So Iwould say that many of us know the other side.

Also I still read many books and listen to many pastors who are not Calvinists. My favorite is Chuck Swindoll. How many non Calvinists read or listen to the other side?

 

[skypair]

Have you ever read Psalms 139 skypair? It is not what the Calvinist says... it is what God says. That is what counts. Your humanism and man centered theology is just that... man centered.

Uh, yeah.

O LORD, thou hast searched me, and known me.
2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.
3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.
4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.
5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.
7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.
12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.
13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.
15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.
and for His infinite mercies
17 How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!
18 If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee.
19 Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: depart from me therefore, ye bloody men.
20 For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain.
21 Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?
22 I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.
23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:
24 And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.

Where do you see anything but foreknowledge and omnipresence (God is everywhere David is)? And how can there be any IF if God predestined everything?

skypair

 

[reformedbeliever]

Uh, yeah.

O LORD, thou hast searched me, and known me.
2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.
3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.
4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.
5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.
7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.
12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.
13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.
15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.
and for His infinite mercies
17 How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!
18 If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee.
19 Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: depart from me therefore, ye bloody men.
20 For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain.
21 Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?
22 I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.
23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:
24 And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.

Where do you see anything but foreknowledge and omnipresence (God is everywhere David is)? And how can there be any IF if God predestined everything?

skypair

Did you read verse 16? What do you think predestination is?

 

[Jim1999]

Would one of the non-calvinists please tell me what is the Permissive Will of God in relation to His sovereignty?

Thank you.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[J.D.]

Would one of the non-calvinists please tell me what is the Permissive Will of God in relation to His sovereignty?

Thank you.

Cheers,

Jim

Good question Jim. The non-cal teaching on permissive will was one of the issues that drove me toward calvinism. My teachers would say "if you move to Detroit, and God didn't want you to move to Detroit, but you moved anyway, then you may be in God's "permissive" will, but not his "perfect" will." To which I would reply "God's permissive will is still will, isn't it?" Of course they would say that it's not His "perfect" will, but He "permits" people to do things He would rather they didn't do. Me: "Rather they didn't do?" "If he would rather they didn't do it, then it's not his will at all, permissive or otherwise." Them: "Smart aleck."

Thanks to good calvinistic teaching, I came to understand that God has only one will - that which He has purposed to do, and He has two methods of executing His will - passively and actively. All other "wills" of God such as "will of command" "secretive will", "declarative will", etc., are merely the machinations with which he accomplishes His will of purpose. All the peices of the puzzle fit now.