Sola Scriptura

First, you cannot quote INDIVIDUALS to exonerate a whole denomination as a "true" denomination or church.

Second, I have already said that the apostolic fathers are closer to the apostolic faith than volumes 2-9 of the Ante-Nicene, much less the Nicene and Post Nicene.

Third, there is a progressive departure from truth that have their origin even in the Apostolic Fathers and soon grows worse and worse as you proceed through the ECF.

So, your argument is baseless and does not contradict the BIBLICAL characteristics of Apostasy in the least or their application to the ECF as they progressively depart from the faith.

 

What kind of exegesis demands GENERAL CHARACTERISTICS must be restricted to the specific and contextual named person's or movements? The eisgetical kind!

You have got to be kidding me???? The very wording of I tim. 4:1 and John 8:44; 16:1-5 demands they are GENERAL CHARACTERISTICS of apostates ANY TIME, ANY WHERE by ANY NAME.

1. Satanic characteristics cannot be limited to the Jewish false religion - Jn. 8:44; 16:1-4

2. "IN THE LATTER TIMES...SOME" cannot be restricted to Timothy or the church at Ephesus he pastored.

3. "if ANY MAN...preach ANOTHER GOSPEL....let him be accursed" cannot be limited to the Galatian churches.

All these are GENERAL CHARACTERISTICS of apostate religions ANY TIME under ANY NAME including the specific contextual application.

 

You have an amazing perverted concept of logic. The only churches that I have claimed to be Apostolic in doctrine are the ones found in the pages of the New Testament Scriptures - Period.

I have never at any time stated or otherwise implied that any individual within ECF represents those churches - that is your position and inference.

I have said the very opposite. I have said they represent the original source of progressive apostasy and the further you read the more obvious the truth of my assertion is demonstrated.

Even for the sake of argument if I admit the apostolic Fathers were orthodox that does not mean their later followers and churches that followed them remained so? Apostasy BEGINS at some point and it is obvious from the ECF that in regard to the gospel it began at a very early point where baptismal regeneration is expressed among these ECF prior to 200 A.D.

 

It is very very difficult for me to believe we are actually having to discuss much less debate such an infantile understanding of basic hermeneutics.

First, I never stated that the contextual audiance for each of these texts are the same.

Second, I did demand that there are general principles in each context that exceed complete restriction to the specific audiance.

If I followed your understanding of hermeneutics then NOTHING in the Scriptures are applicable to anyone outside the Apostolic era unless the immediate context specifically states that is the case. Hence, that does away with the discipline of Sytematic Theology. Systematic theology takes general precepts and principles applied to specific contextual audiances and conditions and applies them to similar audiances and conditions that fit those general precepts and principles.

For example, 1 Timothy 4:1 is by specific context addressed to Timothy as the pastor of the church at Ephesus. However, Paul uses GENERIC or GENERAL terms "some" "in latter times" for a specific kind of action "depart from the faith" due to a specific stated source "doctrines of demons". To demand this is restricted to Timothy or the first century audiances is absurdly rediculous as the GENERIC terms and GENERAL truths apply in all ages to all peoples in regard to the specific issues and sources stated.

Likewise, John 8:29-44. If we followed your view then John 8:30-32, 44 could NOT be applied to anyone but the specific contextual audiance hearing Jesus at that point in history because the prounoun "ye" is found in each of these verses. However, those things in John 8:29-44 are concerned with GENERAL TRUTH as well as GENERAL CHARACTERISTICS taught throughout the New Testament that are applicable to ANY PEOPLE at ANY TIME which fit the same general descriptions. If not, then you better not use the following teachings to apply to yourself or anyone else today:

31 ¶ Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Neither ought you use the characteristics in John 8:44 or John 16:1-4 to describe or apply t anyone but the Jews.

 

It is obvious to me that you have no intent on being objective in this argument but simply want to argue for the fun of it. That is your right to do so but I don't have to stoop that low.

For you to argue that the word "CLOSER" means that I am admitting they ARE apostolic in doctrine is pure evidence that you are not in this debate for truth. At the very point a false gospel is embrace they are apostates even though they progressively keep on moving worse and worse in that false gospel. At the very point they depart from essential truths of the faith they are apostates regardless if they are continuing worse and worse in that departure.

If we followed your line of thinking apostasy could never happen as long as they are in progression in their departure from the faith. As soon as they enact MURDER upon others they are apostates.

 

The only churches that I have claimed to be Apostolic in doctrine are the ones found in the pages of the New Testament Scriptures - Period. - DW

Then is it your contention they disapeard for the next 1400 years?- Thinkingstuff

You know fully well that it is my position that the ECF is not the history of New Testament Christianity at the very point where they DEPARTED from any essential of the faith and refused to repent and return. There were those right at the end of the Apostolic period that departed into a Christian gnosticism. There are those among the rest that began to do this as early as 150A.D where those churches true to the Apostolic faith took a stand against them and continued to do as others progressively departed from the faith (Montanists, Novationists, Donatists, Paulicians, Waldenses, Anabaptists, Baptists).

The preservation of the ECF while systematically destroying the writings of the Montanists, Donatists, Novationists, Paulicians, etc., was to preserve their own history of APOSTASY.

 

If you have followed this debate then it is quite obvious that those opposing my view beleive you can murder Christians and not be regarded as an apostate religion, however, it is clear the Jewish religion could not escape that application could it?

It is quite obvious that those opposing my view beleive you can preach "another gospel" and be regarded as a "true" church instead of an "accursed" church because the Galatians could not get away with it could they?

It is quite obvious that those opposing my view believe you can depart from essentials of the faith and still be considered a "true" Church or house inhabited by the Spirit of God but those in 1 Tim. 4:1 could not get away with being considered as such could they as they departure is expressly given to demons and doctrines of demons.

At the POINT any church/denomination embraces these characteristics it is proof they are to be regarded as APOSTATE rather than "true" churches. Their PROGRESSION in such error only confirms they have already become apostates under the leadership of demons and doctrines of demons.

1. Those teach heaven is determined by works are such.

2. Those who have a history of killing Christians are such.

3. Those who have a history of progessing in departure from essentials of the faith are such.

 

As you can see those who reject these conclusions have to stoop to the rediculous to defend their positions.

I Timothy 4:1 clearly teaches as a GENERAL truth that apostasy originates with demons and is composed of "doctrines" contrary to "the faith."

John 8:44 clearly teaches as a GENERAL truth that murder is a trait of Satan and not of God and is also a trait of those who oppose Biblical Christianity regardless who they might be or what time they exist as Satan is the "father" OF ALL SUCH.

Galatians 1:6-8 clearely teaches as a GENERAL truth anyone at anytime who preaches another gospel as its characteristic message is to be regarded as "accursed" rather than a "true" preacher, church, denomination.

 

The attempt to formulate an orderly, rational, and coherent account of the Christian faith is by gleaning general precepts and principles applied to specific contextual audiances and conditions throughout the scriptures and presents them as GENERAL truths for all generations. Indeed, pick up any Systematic theology and you will see hundreds of references where a specific truth is applied to a specific subject in a specific context. For example, John 8:44 would be used as an example to teach the general truth that Satan is the father of all murderers.

For Example Berkhof in his systematic theology lists John 8:44 as supportive of several GENERAL TRUTHS in regard to Satan, the origin of sin, the instrumentality of Satan through men. - churches/denominations are composed of men and thus can be used/dominated/led by Satan.

For Example Berkhof uses 1 Tim. 4:1 for the Great Apostasy.

Bushnell uses John 8:44 to teach general truths about the same thing as Berkhof. Bushnell applies 1 Tim. 4:1 in general to the "organized church."

A.H. Strong in his sytematic theology uses these texts to teach the same GENERAL truths and I could go on and on with quotations from fifteen other sytematic theologies in my library that do the same thing.

1. Therefore your demand that these texts do not have GENERAL applications is refuted by Theologions of different denominational persuasions.

2. Your restriction to isolated contexts is eisgetical based when these scriptures clearly contain GENERAL principles.

 

When the apostles have put in place "the faith" as the gold standard for doctrine and practice then it is a GENERAL TRUTH that Satan will fight it in the future by the GENERAL TRUTH of a departure from the faith. FUTURE expectation from an Apostolic era and perspective is a GENERAL truth.

 

therefore Galatians 1:6-9 is a timeless general truth that is to be applied to ANY preacher, church/denomination at ANY period in history ANY place. Such are not a "true" preacher, church or demonation but by apostolic command to be regarded and treated as "ACCURSED."

This necessarily includes ECF from 150 A.D onward This necessarily includes Rome, Greek Orthodox. This necessarily includes all who teach regeneration occurs in connection with baptism (Methodist, Lutheran, Church of England). This necessarily includes all who believe entrance into heaven is justified by works (Churches of Christ, SDA, JW's, LDS, Methodists, and the list goes on and on).