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Sola Scripture?
- Thread starter nate
- Start date
Why are you so defensive. It is unrealistic to discuss sola scriptura in the light of Ellen White. How are you going to defend Ellen White using sola scriptura? That I would like to see. BTW, I would take the response that you made to Nate as a false allegation, for you know nothing about Nate and his knowledge of the SDA movment.
DHK
Jarthur001
Active Member
?????
I do not understand this post? sola scriptura was a battle cry against the RCC.
Please give understanding to your post.
In Christ..James
James,
If there was a topic on policemen someone would bring up the idea of criminals and if theres a topic on Sola Scriptura there will be people who would bring up the idea of the Catholic church, dont you think?
When you talk about something thats for something usually the ones on the other side will talk about something against it.
Because everybody knows the catholic church doesnt believe in going by the Bible alone.
If there was a topic on policemen someone would bring up the idea of criminals and if theres a topic on Sola Scriptura there will be people who would bring up the idea of the Catholic church, dont you think?
When you talk about something thats for something usually the ones on the other side will talk about something against it.
Because everybody knows the catholic church doesnt believe in going by the Bible alone.
DHK
I guess its because on that other thread "Our People in Heaven"... Nate kept bringing up Ellen White to me when all I did was quote one scripture after another in defense of my position.
I tried putting him on ignore but I guess the ignore feature doesnt do what I thought it would.
I will just not respond to him anymore.
Claudia
[ April 19, 2006, 12:10 AM: Message edited by: Claudia_T ]
I guess its because on that other thread "Our People in Heaven"... Nate kept bringing up Ellen White to me when all I did was quote one scripture after another in defense of my position.
I tried putting him on ignore but I guess the ignore feature doesnt do what I thought it would.
I will just not respond to him anymore.
Claudia
[ April 19, 2006, 12:10 AM: Message edited by: Claudia_T ]
Sola Scripture is a completely Protestant view. It has nothing to do with the Roman church. We're discussing what guidlines we use to interpet Scripture which is our supreme guide in all matters of Faith and Doctrine. The RCC has never spoken on such a topic seeing as how they view their Pope and Tradition as being infallible and equal with Scripture.
In Christ,
Nate
DHK
and also if people of other religions actually understood the SDA church and the role of Ellen White they would know that the Scriptures themselves say that the remnant church will have the Spirit of Prophecy. And so in a way it IS Sola Scriptura.
Rv:19:10:Rv:12:17: And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rv:19:10: And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
Most people dont have any idea about the Bible prophecies for the last days and what they are all about and the church that is described in prophecy. And so they do not understand at all the role of Ellen White. She points people to the Bible and to Jesus Christ. The Catholic Church points people to the church leaders.
Sorry but he just irked me when I did nothing but post Bible verse after Bible verse and he just kept bringing up Ellen White.
but as I said, I will put him on ignore by gliding past his posts from now on without reading them.
Claudia
and also if people of other religions actually understood the SDA church and the role of Ellen White they would know that the Scriptures themselves say that the remnant church will have the Spirit of Prophecy. And so in a way it IS Sola Scriptura.
Rv:19:10:Rv:12:17: And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rv:19:10: And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
Most people dont have any idea about the Bible prophecies for the last days and what they are all about and the church that is described in prophecy. And so they do not understand at all the role of Ellen White. She points people to the Bible and to Jesus Christ. The Catholic Church points people to the church leaders.
Sorry but he just irked me when I did nothing but post Bible verse after Bible verse and he just kept bringing up Ellen White.
but as I said, I will put him on ignore by gliding past his posts from now on without reading them.
Claudia
DHK,
Since you asked here is just a short run down of what the role of the Spirit of Prophecy is in the Seventh Day Adventist Church. It is nothing like the Roman Catholic Church. As I said before, in a way it IS Sola Scriptura because the Bible itself says it is going to come and be from God.
...and so it would be nice if Nate didnt accuse us of being hypocrites.
This is all I have to say on thr subject,
Eph:4:
10: He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
11: And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12: For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ
13: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ
14: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive
Ellen White, The Faith I Live By, page 294, paragraph 3
Chapter Title: A Purified Church
I related this vision to the believers . . . , who had full confidence that it was from God. The Spirit of the Lord attended the testimony, and the solemnity of eternity rested upon us. An unspeakable awe filled me, that I, so young and feeble, should be chosen as the instrument by which God would give light to His people. . . .
In a second vision, which soon followed the first, I was shown the trials through which I must pass, and that it was my duty to go and relate to others what God had revealed to me. . . .
I prayed earnestly for several days, and far into the night, that this burden might be removed from me and laid upon someone more capable of bearing it. But the light of duty did not change.
My Saviour declared me to be His messenger. "Your work," He instructed me, "is to bear My word. . . . My Spirit and My power shall be with you. . . . It is the Lord that giveth the messages."
I do not write . . . expressing merely my own ideas. They are what God has opened before me in vision--the precious rays of light shining from the throne.
Rv:12:17: And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy . Rev. 19:10.
Above all other books, the Word of God must be our study, the great textbook, the basis of all education.
The Testimonies are not to belittle the Word of God, but to exalt it and attract minds to it, that the beautiful simplicity of truth may impress all.
I took the precious Bible and surrounded it with the several Testimonies for the Church . . . . Here, said I, the cases of nearly all are met. The sins they are to shun are pointed out. The counsel that they desire can be found here, given for other cases situated similarly to themselves. God has been pleased to give you line upon line and precept upon precept. But there are not many of you that really know what is contained in the Testimonies. You are not familiar with the Scriptures. If you had made God's Word your study, with a desire to reach the Bible standard and attain to Christian perfection, you would not have needed the Testimonies . . . .
The Lord designs to warn you, to reprove, to counsel, through the testimonies given, and to impress your minds with the importance of the truth of His Word. The written testimonies are not to give new light, but to impress vividly upon the heart the truths of inspiration already revealed. Man's duty to God and to his fellow man has been distinctly specified in God's Word; yet but few of you are obedient to the light given. Additional truth is not brought out; but God has through the Testimonies simplified the great truths already given and in His own chosen way brought them before the people to awaken and impress the mind with them, that all may be left without excuse.
If we disregard them [the warnings in the Testimonies ], what excuse can we offer?
Quench not the Spirit. Despise not prophesyings. Prove all things; hold fast that which is good . 1 Thess. 5:19-21.
"In ancient times God spoke to men by the mouth of prophets and apostles. In these days He speaks to them by the testimonies of His Spirit. There was never a time when God instructed His people more earnestly than He instructs them now concerning His will and the course that He would have them pursue."
Since you asked here is just a short run down of what the role of the Spirit of Prophecy is in the Seventh Day Adventist Church. It is nothing like the Roman Catholic Church. As I said before, in a way it IS Sola Scriptura because the Bible itself says it is going to come and be from God.
...and so it would be nice if Nate didnt accuse us of being hypocrites.
This is all I have to say on thr subject,
Eph:4:
10: He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
11: And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12: For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ
13: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ
14: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive
Ellen White, The Faith I Live By, page 294, paragraph 3
Chapter Title: A Purified Church
I related this vision to the believers . . . , who had full confidence that it was from God. The Spirit of the Lord attended the testimony, and the solemnity of eternity rested upon us. An unspeakable awe filled me, that I, so young and feeble, should be chosen as the instrument by which God would give light to His people. . . .
In a second vision, which soon followed the first, I was shown the trials through which I must pass, and that it was my duty to go and relate to others what God had revealed to me. . . .
I prayed earnestly for several days, and far into the night, that this burden might be removed from me and laid upon someone more capable of bearing it. But the light of duty did not change.
My Saviour declared me to be His messenger. "Your work," He instructed me, "is to bear My word. . . . My Spirit and My power shall be with you. . . . It is the Lord that giveth the messages."
I do not write . . . expressing merely my own ideas. They are what God has opened before me in vision--the precious rays of light shining from the throne.
Rv:12:17: And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy . Rev. 19:10.
Above all other books, the Word of God must be our study, the great textbook, the basis of all education.
The Testimonies are not to belittle the Word of God, but to exalt it and attract minds to it, that the beautiful simplicity of truth may impress all.
I took the precious Bible and surrounded it with the several Testimonies for the Church . . . . Here, said I, the cases of nearly all are met. The sins they are to shun are pointed out. The counsel that they desire can be found here, given for other cases situated similarly to themselves. God has been pleased to give you line upon line and precept upon precept. But there are not many of you that really know what is contained in the Testimonies. You are not familiar with the Scriptures. If you had made God's Word your study, with a desire to reach the Bible standard and attain to Christian perfection, you would not have needed the Testimonies . . . .
The Lord designs to warn you, to reprove, to counsel, through the testimonies given, and to impress your minds with the importance of the truth of His Word. The written testimonies are not to give new light, but to impress vividly upon the heart the truths of inspiration already revealed. Man's duty to God and to his fellow man has been distinctly specified in God's Word; yet but few of you are obedient to the light given. Additional truth is not brought out; but God has through the Testimonies simplified the great truths already given and in His own chosen way brought them before the people to awaken and impress the mind with them, that all may be left without excuse.
If we disregard them [the warnings in the Testimonies ], what excuse can we offer?
Quench not the Spirit. Despise not prophesyings. Prove all things; hold fast that which is good . 1 Thess. 5:19-21.
"In ancient times God spoke to men by the mouth of prophets and apostles. In these days He speaks to them by the testimonies of His Spirit. There was never a time when God instructed His people more earnestly than He instructs them now concerning His will and the course that He would have them pursue."
Must add one last thing...
See verses 3,4 and 15
The very line the Catholic church uses to justify going by "church tradition" ibstead of the Bible, here in verse 15 "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle"... in these very verses Paul was adminonishing the believers to hold fast to WHAT THEY HAD ALREADY BEEN TAUGHT... because the Papacy was then being formed and its errors were being introduced into the church, "the mystery of iniquity oth already work"...3: Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4: Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
...so the catholic church's ideas about sola scriptura and the Seventh Day Adventist church's ideas about it are polar opposites...
2Thes:2:
1: Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2: That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3: Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4: Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5: Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6: And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7: For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8: And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10: And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11: And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13: But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15: Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
Claudia
See verses 3,4 and 15
The very line the Catholic church uses to justify going by "church tradition" ibstead of the Bible, here in verse 15 "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle"... in these very verses Paul was adminonishing the believers to hold fast to WHAT THEY HAD ALREADY BEEN TAUGHT... because the Papacy was then being formed and its errors were being introduced into the church, "the mystery of iniquity oth already work"...3: Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4: Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
...so the catholic church's ideas about sola scriptura and the Seventh Day Adventist church's ideas about it are polar opposites...
2Thes:2:
1: Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2: That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3: Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4: Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5: Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6: And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7: For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8: And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10: And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11: And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13: But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15: Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
Claudia
That is very similar to the visions that Mohammed had before he was ordered to the write the Koran by the angel Gabriel. At least Mohammed was honest enough with himself to admit that he thought that his visions (experiences) were from demons. It was his wife (a Jew) that convinced him otherwise--that they were from God. And thus Islam was born.
Most false religions and cults begin with some sort of vision that strays away from the truths of the Bible. The same is true here. Ellen G. White is false prophet, who, under Old Testament law, would have been stoned to death. Many of her prophecies have failed to come true, and that in itself makes her a false prophet. Secondly the fact that it is totally against New Testament Scripture for a woman to have authority over a man or even to teach a man, makes her postion as the leader of a cult totally unbibiblical.
Any Charismatic, Third Waver, Islamic mystic, or Hindu Guru, can describe the type of experience that Ellen White described when it is stripped bare of vague irrelevant references to the Bible. Mohammed did that too. There are hundreds of quotes from the Bible in the Koran. All of these people base their religion on experience. So does White. That is not sola scriptura.
DHK
I'll give you that, but why does it always have to be, if you'll pardon the topical pun, sola Catholicism? There's more than one non-SS way to skin the cat here.
http://www.egwtext.whiteestate.org/issues/scripsda.html
forgot to stick that on here, its the Seventh Day Adventist stance on Ellen White and the Scriptures
forgot to stick that on here, its the Seventh Day Adventist stance on Ellen White and the Scriptures
But surely even with whatever spin can be put upon it, SDAs are not sola Scriptura in that they have, in addition to Scripture, the teachings/ prophecy/ interpretation/ 'Tradition' of Ellen White? For instance, if I said: "Well, I hold to SS but believe Ellen White's utterances to be out of line with Scripture (which is of course my sole rule of faith, me being SS and all that), would I be allowed to join?
Doubting Thomas
Active Member
But the "truth" according to whose interpretation of scripture--yours? And how is it exactly that you get to be closest to the "truth" by "neglecting doctrine"? What doctrine are you talking about? Does not the Apostle Paul stress the importance of sound doctrine (which of course includes how we should act as well as what we should believe)? Are these groups neglecting doctrine because they've purposefully abandoned the traditions which Paul and the other apostles delivered to the church and which he commanded them to keep (2 Thess 2:15)? If that's the case, they are in fact neglecting doctrine but they certainly aren't closest to the truth as a result.
Also, you list several groups which you allege have projected their "traditions" back into Bible, but why do you think that you, or the independent churches you've cited, have avoided doing that very same thing, given the influences and presuppositions that you (and they) bring to the text?
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
#1. Yes - acceptance of Ellen White was never made a test of fellowship.
#2. But if you denied the teaching of 1Cor 12 you would be denying one of the 27 FB.
#3. The NT saints (and also OT) had prophets (Like Anna and Simon and Agabus in the NT) as well as "all those who prophesied in 1Cor 14" -- that did not stop them from relying on the Sola Scriptura model as the standard for all doctrine.
The same rule continues to this very day. The Bible and the Bible alone is the standard and rule for all doctrine.
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Matt, you beat me to it.
</font>[/QUOTE]Not by the ones that gave us the "DARK AGES".NOT by the ones that claimed to exterminate 75 million Christians.
NOT by the ones that gave us "Bible burning"
NOT by the ones that gave us "prayers to the dead"
NOT by the ones that gave us "Mary sinless like Christ, queen of heaven, prayers at Mary's altars".
NOT by the ones that gave us "magic powers of the priest able to transform bread into God"...
-- by that standard we could have a hot dog vendor as your "interpreter" and it would be a huge step forward gentlemen. (Assuming you are still looking for someone to tell you what to think).
In Christ,
Bob