Some common Ground between Camps

[BobRyan]

We know that the saints are saved by grace through faith according to Eph 2:8-10 and we know that we cannot add stuff to the Bible to make it fit OSAS.

So then when we get OSAS debunking texts such as -


Gal 5 (NASB)
. 4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace (NKJV)
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. (KJV)
Severed from Christ -- is lost.

Is the ending state - after being joined to Christ and then severed.

Which leads to being burned in the fire - no longer a living branch at all.

John 15:
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;
and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself,
unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit;
for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered;
and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire,
and it shall be done for you.
8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

---

We simply notice and accept "the details" rather than skimming over what does not please OSAS.

To be severed from Christ "is a bad thing" according to Gal 5:4 and John 15.

The saints have no other way to exist - but "joined to Christ" - for there is no salvation apart from Christ.

The lost do not stand by grace, stand by faith, live connected to Christ.

So to be severed from Christ, to be fallen from Grace, to be cut off after standing by faith alone - is to lose salvation.


Can we then "imagine" that those joined to Christ and then severed from Christ - were not joined by faith - but by some "other" Gospel?


Not according to Paul.


[FONT=&quot]Rom 11
20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, andyou stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off


[/FONT]
in Christ,

Bob

 

[The Biblicist]

We know that the saints are saved by grace through faith according to Eph 2:8-10 and we know that we cannot add stuff to the Bible to make it fit OSAS.

So then when we get OSAS debunking texts such as -


Gal 5 (NASB)
. 4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace (NKJV)
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. (KJV)
Severed from Christ -- is lost.

Is the ending state - after being joined to Christ and then severed.

Which leads to being burned in the fire - no longer a living branch at all.

John 15:
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;
and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself,
unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit;
for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered;
and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire,
and it shall be done for you.
8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

---

We simply notice and accept "the details" rather than skimming over what does not please OSAS.

To be severed from Christ "is a bad thing" according to Gal 5:4 and John 15.

The saints have no other way to exist - but "joined to Christ" - for there is no salvation apart from Christ.

The lost do not stand by grace, stand by faith, live connected to Christ.

So to be severed from Christ, to be fallen from Grace, to be cut off after standing by faith alone - is to lose salvation.


Can we then "imagine" that those joined to Christ and then severed from Christ - were not joined by faith - but by some "other" Gospel?


Not according to Paul.


[FONT=&quot]Rom 11
20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, andyou stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off


[/FONT]
in Christ,

Bob

Don't you ever get tired of jerking these texts out of their context??? They have been interpreted according to their context and in their contextual applications they contradict your anti-OSAS position.

 

[BobRyan]

Don't you ever get tired of jerking these texts out of their context .

As usual - you object to the mere quote of these texts.

you are at war with the text itself. I cannot be blamed for that.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The sequence IN the John 15 is not what the OSAS-at-all-costs man-made tradition would have it be and Paul also gives us a clue about the reality of the saved saints - being severed from Christ should they fail to continue in the Gospel -

Gal 5 (NASB)
. 4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace (NKJV)
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. (KJV)
Severed from Christ -- is lost.

Is the ending state - after being joined to Christ and then severed.

Which leads to being burned in the fire - no longer a living branch at all.

John 15:
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;
and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself,
unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit;
for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered;
and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire,
and it shall be done for you.
8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

[FONT=&quot]
And of course let's not avoid Paul's example of being severed from Christ that we find in Romans 11


Rom 11
20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off[/FONT]

We have to view the text from our already established doctrine of saved by grace through faith only.


Does the passage speak of faith at all? .

There is no "back door" out of the obvious meaning of these texts.

Being severed from Christ - and fallen from Grace and burned in the fire - is the "lost condition" not some odd form of "being saved no matter what the Bible says".

Anyone can eisegete to the point of ignoring anything in the text that does not please OSAS.

Salvation is to "Whosoever will" - we must freely choose it - and once that is accepted - then also being saved - we can freely turn from that course.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[The Biblicist]

As usual - you object to the mere quote of these texts.

you are at war with the text itself. I cannot be blamed for that.

in Christ,

Bob

So, My objection is with the text? So, the mere mention of certain texts raises objections and causes to down size what they say, Huh? So immediate context means nothing huh??? Well, then here are scriptures that explicityl deny the loss of salvation of any true child of God. Here are scriptures that clearly state that spiritual life is eternal and cannot be lost. "of all...I SHALL LOSE NOTHING" does not mean "I shall lose some" and that is what your interpretation of these scriptures demand.


Jn. 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Jn. 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Jn. 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
30 I and my Father are one.

Philip. 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Philip. 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Heb. 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

1 Jn. 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Heb. 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;

Psa. 89:29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.
30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;
31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;
32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.
33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.
34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.
36 His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me.

Jd 24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

Rom. 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 ¶ What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Joh 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

 

[steaver]

So, My objection is with the text? So, the mere mention of certain texts raises objections and causes to down size what they say, Huh? So immediate context means nothing huh??? Well, then here are scriptures that explicityl deny the loss of salvation of any true child of God. Here are scriptures that clearly state that spiritual life is eternal and cannot be lost. "of all...I SHALL LOSE NOTHING" does not mean "I shall lose some" and that is what your interpretation of these scriptures demand.


Jn. 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Jn. 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Jn. 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
30 I and my Father are one.

Philip. 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Philip. 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Heb. 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

1 Jn. 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Heb. 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;

Psa. 89:29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.
30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;
31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;
32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.
33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.
34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.
36 His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me.

Jd 24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

Rom. 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 ¶ What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Joh 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

And these are just a few of the many. If we were to post every passage of scripture which describes the believer as preserved in Christ it would no doubt take up multiple pages of this thread. It would be much easier if everyone just takes the time to read the whole counsel of God's word for themselves and they will see.

 

[steaver]

Salvation is to "Whosoever will" - we must freely choose it - and once that is accepted - then also being saved - we can freely turn from that course.

in Christ,

Bob

Probably what confuses many and causes them to misinterpret these passages you bring up is that they have not yet grasped what Christ meant when He said "ye must be born-again", being born of the Spirit.

In John 4, Christ explained to the woman at the well that when a person is given the Gift of God, God gives them Living Water which is the Holy Spirit. Jesus tells her, and us, "But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life"

In John 10, Christ explains how His sheep, these are the one's who have received the Living Water, "shall never perish".

In Eph 4, Paul tells those who have been born of the Spirit that we are "sealed unto the day of redemption".

In Phil 1, Paul tells us, "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:"

In 1Thess 5, Paul says, "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful [is] he that calleth you, who also will do [it]. "

In 1Jo 5, John says, "For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith."

Just a few samples of how the Word of God is crystal clear when it comes to the children of God who are born of the Spirit having eternal life, which we should not have to explain means forever and ever, or never ending, never perishing, never running dry. When we understand what Jesus meant by "born again", by studying and letting the Scriptures speak to this subject, we then can understand what is meant by the doctrine of OSAS. Nicodemus had a hard time understanding this, but I believe later grasped the teaching Christ gave on OSAS.

 

[BobRyan]

By straining the text beyond what it says - the OSAS group find themselves in a corner.

These texts "should not exist" if OSAS were even remotely true.

The sequence IN the John 15 is not what the OSAS-at-all-costs man-made tradition would have it be and Paul also gives us a clue about the reality of the saved saints - being severed from Christ should they fail to continue in the Gospel -

Gal 5 (NASB)
. 4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace (NKJV)
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. (KJV)
Severed from Christ -- is lost.

Is the ending state - after being joined to Christ and then severed.

Which leads to being burned in the fire - no longer a living branch at all.

John 15:
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;
and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself,
unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit;
for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered;
and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire,
and it shall be done for you.
8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

[FONT=&quot]
And of course let's not avoid Paul's example of being severed from Christ that we find in Romans 11


Rom 11
20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off[/FONT]



There is no "back door" out of the obvious meaning of these texts.

Being severed from Christ - and fallen from Grace and burned in the fire - is the "lost condition" not some odd form of "being saved no matter what the Bible says".

Anyone can eisegete to the point of ignoring anything in the text that does not please OSAS.

Salvation is to "Whosoever will" - we must freely choose it - and once that is accepted - then also being saved - we can freely turn from that course.

in Christ,

 

[BobRyan]

Those who cling to OSAS yet deny perseverance (so that they can actually have eternal assurance) would do well to pay attention to the Word of God here

===============

Matt 10:22 but it is he who has endured until the end that will be saved.


1 Timothy 4:16
Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.


Heb 2:1-3
1. For this reason we must pay close attention to what have heard lest we drift away from it


Heb 3:6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence
and the boast of our hope firm until the end.


Heb 3:12-14
12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called ""Today,'' so that none of you will be hardened
by the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,


Heb 10:35-39
35 Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.
37 FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY.
38 BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM.
39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

1Cor 15:1-2
1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received,
in which also you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

Rom 11:22
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness,
if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

==============================================

By contrast those who cling to OSAS and also accept these texts - have no assurance at all - since they are forced to retro-delete today's assurance when it turns out that ten years from today - they fail to persevere.

The only valid solution is the Arminian one found in the Bible - Free will. Full assurance today but then fully accepting the Bible requirement to persevere firm unto the end. And if in your free will you do not choose to do so -

Then you who are joined to Christ - will then be severed from Christ. Gal 5:4

Then you who are under Grace - will then be fallen from Grace. Gal 5:4

Then you who are grafted in - will then be cut off Romans 11

This is as easy as it gets - and yet to cling to the man-made tradition of OSAS seems to enticing that some will turn a blind eye to even the plainest statements of Scripture against it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

Those who cling to OSAS yet deny perseverance (so that they can actually have eternal assurance) would do well to pay attention to the Word of God here


in Christ,

Bob

I for one understand OSAS from the scriptures....

Probably what confuses many and causes them to misinterpret these passages you bring up is that they have not yet grasped what Christ meant when He said "ye must be born-again", being born of the Spirit.

In John 4, Christ explained to the woman at the well that when a person is given the Gift of God, God gives them Living Water which is the Holy Spirit. Jesus tells her, and us, "But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life"

In John 10, Christ explains how His sheep, these are the one's who have received the Living Water, "shall never perish".

In Eph 4, Paul tells those who have been born of the Spirit that we are "sealed unto the day of redemption".

In Phil 1, Paul tells us, "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:"

In 1Thess 5, Paul says, "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful [is] he that calleth you, who also will do [it]. "

In 1Jo 5, John says, "For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith."

Just a few samples of how the Word of God is crystal clear when it comes to the children of God who are born of the Spirit having eternal life, which we should not have to explain means forever and ever, or never ending, never perishing, never running dry. When we understand what Jesus meant by "born again", by studying and letting the Scriptures speak to this subject, we then can understand what is meant by the doctrine of OSAS. Nicodemus had a hard time understanding this, but I believe later grasped the teaching Christ gave on OSAS.

...and I do not deny perseverance of the saints. Jesus made it clear....

"Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed;" (John 8)

Those who do not continue and produce fruit are not born of God, never were. We see this in the parable of the four soils, only the fourth soil is proven to be born of God.

There are many passages which teach that only those who endure until the end will be saved, you posted some of them for us even. Let the wheat grow along side of the tares, and then Jesus will harvest those whom He knows is His.

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity". (Matt 7)

As we can see, Jesus "NEVER" knew them, they were never born of God, ever.

Just far to many passages that bolster OSAS.

 

[The Biblicist]

Those who cling to OSAS yet deny perseverance (so that they can actually have eternal assurance) would do well to pay attention to the Word of God here

===============

Matt 10:22 but it is he who has endured until the end that will be saved.


1 Timothy 4:16
Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.


Heb 2:1-3
1. For this reason we must pay close attention to what have heard lest we drift away from it


Heb 3:6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence
and the boast of our hope firm until the end.


Heb 3:12-14
12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called ""Today,'' so that none of you will be hardened
by the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,


Heb 10:35-39
35 Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.
37 FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY.
38 BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM.
39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

1Cor 15:1-2
1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received,
in which also you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

Rom 11:22
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness,
if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

==============================================

By contrast those who cling to OSAS and also accept these texts - have no assurance at all - since they are forced to retro-delete today's assurance when it turns out that ten years from today - they fail to persevere.

The only valid solution is the Arminian one found in the Bible - Free will. Full assurance today but then fully accepting the Bible requirement to persevere firm unto the end. And if in your free will you do not choose to do so -

Then you who are joined to Christ - will then be severed from Christ. Gal 5:4

Then you who are under Grace - will then be fallen from Grace. Gal 5:4

Then you who are grafted in - will then be cut off Romans 11

This is as easy as it gets - and yet to cling to the man-made tradition of OSAS seems to enticing that some will turn a blind eye to even the plainest statements of Scripture against it.

in Christ,

Bob

You are plainly interpreting and teaching that salvation is ultimately obtained by perserving in good works rather than by grace because if salvation can be lost by bad works it must be ultimately obtained by good works. There are only two possible options (1) Grace or (2) works - Rom. 11:6; Eph. 2:8-9 and they cannot be mixed.

Works are defined in Romans 4 in direct relationship to Abraham who was justified by faith without works PRIOR to circumcision and PRIOR to Judaism and 430 years prior to the Mosaic Law covenant.

Hence, works do not refer to becoming a Jew through circumcision. Works do not refer to the Old Mosaic Covenant. Works refer to the personal obedience of Abraham as an uncircumcised GENTILE to what is right by conscience or any other revelation of truth.

 

[BobRyan]

You are plainly interpreting and teaching that salvation is ultimately obtained by perserving in good works rather than by grace .

You only say that because you don't like the texts I am posting (and will post again) and you choose of your own free will to cling to the man-made tradition of OSAS no matter what the Bible says to the contrary.

What is "odd" here is that there are a lot of Calvinists that DO accept the Bible doctrine on perseverance - so "odd" that you oppose those Calvinists.

But not so "odd" that you avoided the point in my prior post proving that Calvinists that DO accept the Bible doctrine on perseverance have LESS assurance (or none) as compared to Arminans - since those Calvinists cannot see the future.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[saturneptune]

You only say that because you don't like the texts I am posting (and will post again) and you choose of your own free will to cling to the man-made tradition of OSAS no matter what the Bible says to the contrary.

What is "odd" here is that there are a lot of Calvinists that DO accept the Bible doctrine on perseverance - so "odd" that you oppose those Calvinists.

But not so "odd" that you avoided the point in my prior post proving that Calvinists that DO accept the Bible doctrine on perseverance have LESS assurance (or none) as compared to Arminans - since those Calvinists cannot see the future.

in Christ,

Bob

You sound like John Kerry in the 2004 election. To paraphrase, "Christians were saved before they weren't."