Some false views of Election examined and refuted

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

John 1:12-13. Here is a perfect example of what John would have been thinking about there. Do you remember Simon Magus? He is one who "believed" but wasn't "regenerated" (no one was until Peter and John came to Samaria). At that time, Simon "proved" the reason for his profession -- he really wanted to have the Spirit indwelling and power (1:13) without the life-changing commitment of "receiving" Christ (1:12).

Therefore, when John penned 1:13, he was thinking about those like Simon who would think that it was by their own desire that one could receive "regeneration" (which is what 1:13 is talking about).

The point would be that you MUST commit to Christ (1:12) -- THEN it is up to God's will that we receive the Spirit of regeneration.

skypair

GE:

Eisjh! Je ne comprend pas! This sounds like a strange tongue! This is garbled!
Here's the right order and the true fact - one single fact - of the matter:

The point is that it is up to God's will that we receive the Spirit of regeneration. THEN: that you SHALL commit to Christ (1:12)

 

[webdog]

I'll wait and see if webdog agrees.

Would it make a difference? I doubt the dishonesty from you would stop, even if I do, as you know my take on that, and you still feel you need to represent me and erect your strawmen. That's why I stopped interacting with you on here.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Would it make a difference? I doubt the dishonesty from you would stop, even if I do, as you know my take on that, and you still feel you need to represent me and erect your strawmen. That's why I stopped interacting with you on here.

GE:

Is the dog webbed because he is so vicious?

 

[webdog]

The dog is fed up with intentionally being misrepresented, as jarthur constantly does.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

The dog is fed up with intentionally being misrepresented, as jarthur constantly does.

GE:

I'm so relieved you haven't taken that as 'name calling'! Thanks!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Jarthur001:

"1. The view that men are elected when they believe.
2. The view that election pertains only to the Jews.
3. The view that election took place in eternity, but that it was in view of foreseen repentance and faith.

Examined and refuted

"Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." "

GE:

Best explanation you could have given, this text!
It baffles me, and keeps on baffling me, that some cannot see.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Eric B:

"Also, webdog didn't actually say he believed #2. He just said the page didn't refute it."

GE:

As I understand Jarthur's opening post, he supports the refutation of point 2.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Eric B:

"Also, webdog didn't actually say he believed #2. He just said the page didn't refute it."

GE:

As I understand Jarthur's opening post, he supports the refutation of point 2.

GE:

Did I say this? I must have! a bit mixed up - sorry.

 

[BobRyan]

1. The view that men are elected when they believe.


2. The view that election pertains only to the Jews.


3. The view that election took place in eternity, but that it was in view of foreseen repentance and faith.

God is NOT willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance 2Peter 3.

God so Loved the WORLD that He gave... yes really!

God knows all - but God also "DRAWS ALL" John 12:32.

Read it - believe it.

God in KNOWING all can certainly claim to have authored and designed events such that the "Whosoever will" that comes were known from eternity past.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Rippon]

BR :You have made an error regarding John 12:32 .It means : will draw all mine to myself . If you think that God has drawn every single person to Himself -- past , present and future -- you've drawn ( pun intended ) a wrong conclusion . Scripture and even common sense is agin ya' . How in the world of BR do you explain away John 6:37, 44 and 65 ? Either He draws some of His choosing as these verses say or you believe in Universalism . Which is it ?

As for 2 Peter 3:9 : Peter was writing to God's elect ( see 1 Peter 1:1 ). In 2 Peter 3:8 Peter says "dear friends" or "beloved" . In the Greek it's agapetoi which is a term for God's elect or simply -- Christians .The thrust of 3:9 is intended for believers only . If you think it is intended for every person -- past , present and future you are making the Scripture nonsensical . In Romans 11:25 it says : .. "until the full number of Gentiles come in " . That is , until all whom the Lord is determining to save from among the Gentiles be saved .

 

[BobRyan]

John 16: 8-13 God "Convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment"

John 12:32 God draws ALL (not merely the FEW of Matt 7)

John 1:5-8 "Christ is the light that coming into the world enlightens EVERY man".

Rev 3 "I stand at the door and knock if ANYONE opens the door I WILL come in"

John is very VERY consistent on this DRAW ALL and enlighten ALL -- enlighten EVERY man etc

This is not robot-universalism as the bogus robot-centric argument of Calvinism likes to pretend. It is the Gospel in a FREE WILL system.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

As for 2Peter 3:9 -- Christ said "I have come to SEEK and SAVE the LOST" the bogus robot-centric idea that God only reaches out to saved church members with the Gospel text of the NT is totally debunked.


Calvinism insists on pretending that the NT text is not intended to be read by the LOST -- If such bogus-calvinist ideas had an ounce of truth to them thenk NNE would have been saved after the letters of the NT were written.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR:
John 16: 8-13 God "Convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment"

HP: Note: Sin and righteousness does not equate to the gospel message.

BR: John 12:32 God draws ALL (not merely the FEW of Matt 7)

HP: This again in no way insinuates that all are drawn to salvation. God draws those He so desires to taste of His mercy and grace. Because He grants the opportunity to some in no way makes God out to be a respecter of persons. He simply does not grant to us all the reasons why he is selective in allowing some to hear the gospel message and yet others He indeed leaves in their sins. His hands are willingly tied by Himself for reasons known only to Himself, for indeed He does desire that all would hear and respond, but again for reasons known only to Himself, He has not insured that happening by force or coercion, but has engaged man in those efforts, as feeble and inept as we often are.

BR: John 1:5-8 "Christ is the light that coming into the world enlightens EVERY man".

HP: Indeed He does, but that enlightenment does not equate to granting all the gospel message itself. His enlightenment to all in no way mandates that it includes the message of salvation, nor does it.

BR: Rev 3 "I stand at the door and knock if ANYONE opens the door I WILL come in"

HP: This again does not state that He stands with the gospel message at the door of everyone’s heart, but rather to those that have the opportunity to hear and respond, He indeed does stand at their hearts door and knocks. Any that opens the door will find that He is willing and able to come in.

BR: John is very VERY consistent on this DRAW ALL and enlighten ALL -- enlighten EVERY man etc

HP: You beg the question as to what that drawing and enlightenment entails, and fail to support the notion that all are given the gospel message.

BR: This is not robot-universalism as the bogus robot-centric argument of Calvinism likes to pretend. It is the Gospel in a FREE WILL system.

HP: Amen. In this we agree.

 

[BobRyan]

HP: Note: Sin and righteousness does not equate to the gospel message.

Try the "Gospel preached to US just as it was to THEM also" without starting with the fall of man and our need of salvation sir.

HP: This again in no way insinuates that all are drawn to salvation. God draws those He so desires to taste of His mercy and grace.

John 12:32 does not say "God just draws those He selectively desires to taste of His Mercy" - it says ALL.

In John 1 "HE is the light that coming into the world enlightens EVERY man".

REV 3 He stands at the door and knocks "IF ANY man hears AND OPENS I will come in"

Because He grants the opportunity to some in no way makes God out to be a respecter of persons.

Indeed for God calls "All men everywhere to repent"

God "sent His Son to be the Savior of the WORLD" 1John 4.

God is "not a partial" to ANY Romans 2.

he is selective in allowing some to hear the gospel message and yet others He indeed leaves in their sins. His hands are willingly tied by Himself for reasons known only to Himself,

Another Gospel and "Another" Bible -- one that apparenly you are not willing to quote other then making your own comments.

for indeed He does desire that all would hear and respond, but again for reasons known only to Himself, He has not insured that happening

How sad that you would view him that way. How wonderful for you view IF some text had said "God desire ALL to come to repentance BUT FOR SOME innexplicable reason does not set events in motion that would ALLOW what He WANTS to happen".

How wonderful for the rest of us that no such text exists!!

HP: Indeed He does, but that enlightenment does not equate to granting all the gospel message itself. His enlightenment to all in no way mandates that it includes the message of salvation, nor does it.

Was Enoch "saved" according to Heb 11?? Exactly WHAT Gospel message did HE have according to you?


You have inserted a false I idea of "saved by perfect story telling" and that has never been the criteria - read Romans 2:10-14.

Read Heb 4:1

With an understanding of those basics it is easy to accept

John 16: 8-13 God "Convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment"

John 12:32 God draws ALL (not merely the FEW of Matt 7)

John 1:5-8 "Christ is the light that coming into the world enlightens EVERY man".

Rev 3 "I stand at the door and knock if ANYONE opens the door I WILL come in"

John is very VERY consistent on this DRAW ALL and enlighten ALL -- enlighten EVERY man etc

This is not robot-universalism as the bogus robot-centric argument of Calvinism likes to pretend. It is the Gospel in a FREE WILL system.



in Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: Another Gospel and "Another" Bible -- one that apparenly you are not willing to quote other then making your own comments.

HP: Not so BR. Scripture is crystal clear on this issue. Ro 9:14 ¶ What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Ro 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called,

Can you show us one text where the context is salvation and it sets forth that all have heard? Please, no need to repeat the ones you have already listed in which the context in no way implies the salvation message.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

John 16: 8-13 God "Convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment"

John 12:32 God draws ALL (not merely the FEW of Matt 7)

John 1:5-8 "Christ is the light that coming into the world enlightens EVERY man".

Rev 3 "I stand at the door and knock if ANYONE opens the door I WILL come in"

John is very VERY consistent on this DRAW ALL and enlighten ALL -- enlighten EVERY man etc

This is not robot-universalism as the bogus robot-centric argument of Calvinism likes to pretend. It is the Gospel in a FREE WILL system.

In Christ,

Bob

GE:

BR, "John 16: 8-13 God "Convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment"

GE,
"God", you say, 'jugdes'. Right! because the whole world has sinned and is sinful and unrighteous - has brought ITSELF under the just judgment of God of condemnation.

John 12:32 God draws ALL (not merely the FEW of Matt 7)

GE,
God draws all, 'drawn'. What would He draw any for if any could 'draw' themselves to God for salvation? Those not drawn, God does not draw. And , as a plain fact the majority of the 'world' (Jh16:8-13) are never 'drawn', but are already condemned.
The logic and thrust of this statement of Scripture says the opposite of what you force it to say.

BR, "John 1:5-8 "Christ is the light that coming into the world enlightens EVERY man"."

GE,
"every man", "enlightened". Where in this world do you find 'every man' of this world, 'enlightened'? Either in the sense of to be brought to the place where every one will be able to distinguish the options between the salvation in Christ or to be lost; or, 'enlightened' in the sense here in John implied, that of being saved eternally? Neither is universally true, while John's statement is universally true, in that "God enlightens every man" that is enlightened. Again, the crux is no man can enlighten himself, but has to wait for God to enlighten him or stay in the darkness earned by himself always. Again the logic overturns your precluded idea.

Rev 3 "I stand at the door and knock if ANYONE opens the door I WILL come in"

GE,
It seems per accident you put the emphasis on the right place, which is, on the wrong place for you! "I stand at the door and knock if ANYONE opens the door I WILL come in". Your true intention would have been to put the emphasis on 'if' - never a dull moment till Hercules has swayed the cross roads in one direction! 'IF, anyone open the door, then, I will be able to come in'.

How many times more will you fall back, not onto this Scripture, but onto your corruption of it? It is not John, but you, who are, "... very VERY consistent on this DRAW ALL and enlighten ALL -- enlighten EVERY man etc" !

What is easier than to sommer take THREE FALSE presuppositions at once, and to think one concludes a real case : "This is not robot-universalism as the bogus robot-centric argument of Calvinism likes to pretend. It is the Gospel in a FREE WILL system." It takes no academic degree to see the mere pretense; not even much of intelligence; simply a bit of honesty and intellect.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

HP:

"God draws those He so desires to taste of His mercy and grace."

GE:

God draws those He so might desire to draw; drawing and creating in such a taste - the palate -, to taste of His mercy and grace. The desire and yearning after God and His salvation, are the work and feat of God, and of Him only - even in us.

 

[BobRyan]

God said

"there is NO partiality with God" Rom 2:10-13

But HP said

he is selective in allowing some to hear the gospel message and yet others He indeed leaves in their sins. His hands are willingly tied by Himself for reasons known only to Himself,

God said "God so loved the WORLD" John 3

But HP said

he is selective in allowing some to hear the gospel message and yet others He indeed leaves in their sins. His hands are willingly tied by Himself for reasons known only to Himself,

God said that He "CONVICTS THE WORLD of sin and righteousnessa and Judgment"John 16:8-11 and "DRAWS ALL" unto HIM John 12:32


But HP said

he is selective in allowing some to hear the gospel message and yet others He indeed leaves in their sins. His hands are willingly tied by Himself for reasons known only to Himself,

God said in John 4 He "gave His son to be the Savior of the WORLD"
and that "He is not willing that ANY should perish" 2Pet 3:9
and that His Son is "the atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the whole WORLD" 1 John 2:2


But HP said

he is selective in allowing some to hear the gospel message and yet others He indeed leaves in their sins. His hands are willingly tied by Himself for reasons known only to Himself,

So WHERE is the text that HP uses to reject this all-evangelizing God who "Sending his Son into the World as the LIGHT of the World..enligtens EVERY man" John 1??

What text SAYS "God desire ALL to come to repentance BUT FOR SOME innexplicable reason does not set events in motion that would ALLOW what He WANTS to happen".

HP suggests it is Romans 9 "God hardens whom He will" but in Romans 9 we find "God continues to endure with MUCH patience vessels of wrath" IN ORDER that the saints will SEE that mercy and patience and longsuffering toward those whom He knows to finally reject HIm and in that way the riches of His glory will be MADE KNOW to vessels of Mercy--

The idea that God LAVISHES His Love and the blood of His Son on those whom HE foreknows to be finally and ultimately lost -- JUST so the saints will SEE the overflowing abundant loving kindness of God as it is shown EVEN to those whom He foreknows will reject it - and in SEEING it they will discern a loving MERCIFUL God -- is being spun about as IF this is God's capricious way of SELECTING some to be saved and just not connecting the dots sufficiently to allow others that SAME salvation!!


Imagine for a moment your lost son or Daughter burning in hell - and in reviewing their history you find God over-abundantly lavishing them with the convicting, and drawing, and blood of Christ shed for their sins EVEN though He knows they will ultimately choose to say 'no" -- anyway!

How can you spin THAT around to say that this is God innexplicably capriciously, arbitrarily and "selectively allowing some to hear the gospel message and yet others He indeed leaves in their sins. His hands are willingly tied by Himself for reasons known only to Himself"

 

[BobRyan]

BR, "John 1:5-8 "Christ is the light that coming into the world enlightens EVERY man"."

GE,
"every man", "enlightened". Where in this world do you find 'every man' of this world, 'enlightened'? Either in the sense of to be brought to the place where every one will be able to distinguish the options between the salvation in Christ or to be lost; or, 'enlightened' in the sense here in John implied

Never put it past GE to come up with a wild off the wall idea. "Where did you get the idea that God said he would enlighten every man on planet earth in this space time continueum??"

Just because HE SAYS He "enlightens EVERY MAN" does not mean "on THIS PLANET"??

What OTHER PLANET where you thinking of??

None are so blind as those who WILL NOT see.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

BobRyan said, "God said, "there is NO partiality with God" Rom 2:10-13. But HP said, 'he is selective in allowing some to hear the gospel message and yet others He indeed leaves in their sins. His hands are willingly tied by Himself for reasons known only to Himself,'

GE:

Just to show BobRyan NEVER takes into consideration, 'CONTEXT'!