Some false views of Election examined and refuted

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JAurthur: So..are you saying that when the Bible says all men are drawn to Christ...have a inward power to come to Him.....are dragged off to Him by their desire to come to Him....that some though they have this draw....this inward desire to come....that when they come because of this desire ...this desire that God gave them...God will not save them?

HP: In your questioning, you obviously confuse passive influences upon the will with the will's voluntary choices it must make in all moral decisions. Man can have many desires, and God can even put within us desires, but desire in and of itself is an influence that can be resisted. God drags no one. He makes an offer and requires the will of man to yield their wills in accordance to proper desires or influences. God’s influences and desires are passive in nature, and can be resisted. Proof of this lies in the fact that men are held accountable, rewarded or punished, as a result of the choices they make.

Your questions make God out to be coercing those by force to be saved, or coercing or forcing those to be damned by withholding some needed force of ‘dragging’ Scripture paints a completely different picture. God stands at the door and knocks, Man is required to open the door and willing allow God to enter in. ‘Come unto me,’ is the Scriptural mandate, and God will give you rest. You, ‘take up your cross and follow me.’ “Repent, for the Kingdom of heaven is at hand!’ 'Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved.’ “If ye will turn from your wicked ways.’

Over and over Scripture calls upon man to exercise their voluntary will in acceptance of the offer God makes and the influences to right choices He grants to man. Salvation is not accomplished by God coercing, forcing, or dragging man, but is accomplished as man chooses voluntarily to comply with the Scriptural commands to yield their wills in accordance to the passive influences God places in the path of man’s heart. ’Choose you this day whom ye shall serve,‘ whether it is disobedience unto death, or righteousness and obedience unto life eternal. The choice is ours to make.

 

[BobRyan]

helkō

1) to draw, drag off
2) metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel

So..are you saying that when the Bible says all men are drawn to Christ...have a inward power to come to Him.....are dragged off to Him by their desire to come to Him....that some though they have this draw....this inward desire to come....that when they come because of this desire ...this desire that God gave them...God will not save them?

No I am saying that the supernatural DRAWING OF ALL by God ENABLES the CHOICE in ALL that depravity DISABLES.


I am saying that those who THEN choose (and surely some of them will) to OPEN the door will find that Christ DOES COME IN and fellowship with them as stated in REv 3.

I am saying that those who IMAGINE that being alone on the INSIDE WITHOUT Christ -- is a way of saying "SAVED" have a false view of the gospel.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Jarthur001]

helkō

1) to draw, drag off
2) metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel



I am saying that those who THEN choose (and surely some of them will) to OPEN the door will find that Christ DOES COME IN and fellowship with them as stated in REv 3.

Where is the draw in this statement? I see no longing...no power within...no pulling to the object. Where is the longing that they MUST have? Where is the draw given to all men as you claim the verse means?

To say "surely some will chose"...shows no impact of a draw to do so. Its like a hopful guess you have played. Surely you mis-spoke your idea here. To have a draw you must have a action in that object or a desire to love that object and a longing for that object. You have failed to show a desire to come.

Does God draw or...place in man a desire to come to the saving power found only in Christ? Do we see man doing all they can to come to Christ? Is the draw placed on all men? Do we see them losing sleep...because they cannot wait till they can ask God to save them from their sins?

Just how does this draw work in your doctrine?

 

[Jarthur001]

HP: In your questioning, you obviously confuse passive influences upon the will with the will's voluntary choices it must make in all moral decisions. Man can have many desires, and God can even put within us desires, but desire in and of itself is an influence that can be resisted.

In my "longing" to understand the free-will side and how it handles the word "draw" you have not addressed the meaning of the word, but chose to dodge it so that you may paint flower words of nothingness.

Drawing is not a passive feeling. It is a inward desire. If I say I am drawn to rocky road ice cream, this means I want it...will chose rocky road when rocky road is a choice.

For you and Bob to claim "all men are draw to God"...means that if God is a choice that man has such a longing for God that they will chose God. Is this what we see? I think not.

God drags no one.

What does draw mean?

He makes an offer and requires the will of man to yield their wills in accordance to proper desires or influences. God’s influences and desires are passive in nature, and can be resisted.

How about the story of Balaam? Balak the Moabite sent for this heathen prophet to "curse" Israel. A handsome reward was offered for his services, and a careful reading of Numbers 22-24 will show that Balaam was willing, ....even anxious, to accept Balak’s offer and thus sin against God and His people. But Divine power "withheld" him. Please note the next quote for the Bible.

"And Balaam said unto Balak, Lo, I am come unto thee: have I now any power at all to say anything? the word that God putteth in my mouth, that shall I speak" (Num. 22:38).

After Balak had remonstrated with Balaam, we read,

"He answered and said, Must I not take heed to speak that which the Lord hath put in my mouth? . . . Behold, I have received commandment to bless: and He hath blessed; and I cannot reverse it" (23:12, 20).

These verses show us God’s power, and Balaam’s powerlessness: man’s will frustrated, and God’s will performed. Is this passive?

Proof of this lies in the fact that men are held accountable, rewarded or punished, as a result of the choices they make.

Like Paul who was killing believers...so was rewarded with these killings with salvation? Or the two twins....one was elected..the other not...before they were born? Humm

Your questions make God out to be coercing those by force to be saved, or coercing or forcing those to be damned by withholding some needed force of ‘dragging’ Scripture paints a completely different picture.

My questions are just that...questains. I ask what you believe. I take your words and ask with your means if in fact this is what you mean. The only picture you see...is the picture you have panited. I ask again..what does draw mean to you?

God stands at the door and knocks,

who opens the door...and no man closes? Who closes the door and no man opens?

Man is required to open the door and willing allow God to enter in. ‘Come unto me,’ is the Scriptural mandate, and God will give you rest.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JA: In my "longing" to understand the free-will side and how it handles the word "draw" you have not addressed the meaning of the word,

HP: To be drawn is not to be forced or coerced when speaking of drawing moral agents in matters of praise or blame. When Scripture speaks of God drawing man, force or coercion is out of the picture. God draws by granting to man a passive influence that can be resisted.
Take the case of Jonah. Here God drew Jonah by allowing certain circumstances to come into his life, but that is not to say that in the end Jonah still had to willingly yield himself to God’s plan or face further consequences. If God holds man accountable for his actions, man must be able to do something other than what he does under the very same set of circumstances. It is a first truth of reason, planted within the breast of every man by God, that in order to do anything blameworthy or praiseworthy, one must be free to make a choice. No drawing of God, in any matters man is to held accountable for, is of such a nature that man could not do something other than what he does under the very same set of circumstances.

JA: Drawing is not a passive feeling. It is a inward desire. If I say I am drawn to rocky road ice cream, this means I want it...will chose rocky road when rocky road is a choice.

HP: Not so. You confuse mere desire with the will forming intents. Before I had any desire to serve God, God came to me via His drawing. It was the drawing of the Holy Spirit that placed within my breast desire to be obedient to the demands of the gospel. Just the same, those desires in no way were coercive in nature. They did not force me to act in a given way. My will had to choose to act in accordance to those desires in order to be saved.
If you have no other possibility other than to choose Rocky Road, you have not chosen Rocky Road. Choice involves having two or more possible consequent for any given antecedent. If there is only one possible consequent, as in your illustration concerning Rocky Road, choice is impossible to conceive of. You are painting a picture of one strapped to a gurney, having ice cream forced down your throat, and when the muscles of your throat involuntarily move to allow the lungs to breathe, moving the ice cream down your esophagus, you exclaim, you ‘chose’ to swallow it. No you did not ‘choose’ to swallow anything. Choice involves freedom, and in the case of the Rocky Road being forced down your throat, freedom was impossible to exercise.
Who cannot see that if one has only one possible consequent for a given antecedent that no choice is possible? Your explanation of having a choice is no choice at all, but rather the involuntary responses to force or coercion.

Salvation and obedience to God’s conditions do not operate upon the will with force or coercion. To suggest otherwise, as to associate God’s drawing with force or coercion, is to misunderstand God’s working with moral agents.

JA: For you and Bob to claim "all men are draw to God"...means that if God is a choice that man has such a longing for God that they will chose God. Is this what we see? I think not.

HP: First, BR and myself do not agree on God’s drawing. BR claims that God draw all in the sense of granting to all the opportunity to hear and respond to the gospel. I disagree. God certainly draws all men by granting to them some knowledge of a God, and certainly convicts them of sin in one degree ro another, but Scripture no where states that all have had the opportunity to hear and respond to the gospel as BR falsely claims.
Just because God has placed within every man’s breast some longing for God and some abilities to comprehend Him, does not mean that such a drawing will irresistibly land them in salvation, or that everyman will be drawn to salvation, or that everyman will even hear about salvation. God’s drawing, or influence upon man may indeed be irresistible in the sense that man’s will cannot stop God from granting to man some light concerning Himself, for before man is and before man has his first thought, God Is. Just the same, man can indeed reject the drawing of God, in the sense that man can choose to reject it once it is granted, and to do despite God’s influences.
Quote:
HP:He makes an offer and requires the will of man to yield their wills in accordance to proper desires or influences. God’s influences and desires are passive in nature, and can be resisted.

JA: How about the story of Balaam? Balak the Moabite sent for this heathen prophet to "curse" Israel. A handsome reward was offered for his services, and a careful reading of Numbers 22-24 will show that Balaam was willing, ....even anxious, to accept Balak’s offer and thus sin against God and His people. But Divine power "withheld" him. Please note the next quote for the Bible.

HP: If I were to believe the story in accordance to the explanation of drawing, as a force or coercion, the story would go like this. God blamed Balaam for the donkey stopping and sentenced him to an eternal hell because it stopped. Do you see anything wrong JA?

JA: These verses show us God’s power, and Balaam’s powerlessness: man’s will frustrated, and God’s will performed. Is this passive?

HP: Sure God can and may often override our wills, but when he does, such as in stopping the donkey, God does not directly blame or praise us for that which was beyond our abilities, will, and control.

 

[Jarthur001]

JA: In my "longing" to understand the free-will side and how it handles the word "draw" you have not addressed the meaning of the word,

HP: To be drawn is not to be forced or coerced when speaking of drawing moral agents in matters of praise or blame. When Scripture speaks of God drawing man, force or coercion is out of the picture. God draws by granting to man a passive influence that can be resisted.

A passive influence is not what the word means. More like a passion for the object is the real idea of the meaning. I agree that there is no forcing. The draw is real, if we are to go with the real greek meaning...which I think is the best idea. Now if we change the meaning as you would have us do, will this work?

Are you saying that..

44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me gives him a passive influence that can be resisted, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Is this what you mean?

Take the case of Jonah. Here God drew Jonah by allowing certain circumstances to come into his life, but that is not to say that in the end Jonah still had to willingly yield himself to God’s plan or face further consequences.

Indeed...Are you saying that the large fish was a passive influence that can be resisted?

It is a first truth of reason, planted within the breast of every man by God, that in order to do anything blameworthy or praiseworthy, one must be free to make a choice.

What? You must be kidding. Verse please to back this statement.

No drawing of God, in any matters man is to held accountable for, is of such a nature that man could not do something other than what he does under the very same set of circumstances.

I have no idea what you just said.

JA: Drawing is not a passive feeling. It is a inward desire. If I say I am drawn to rocky road ice cream, this means I want it...will chose rocky road when rocky road is a choice.


HP: Not so. You confuse mere desire with the will forming intents.

I’m sorry, but this is what the Greek word means. Now if you want to change the meaning to fit your doctrine…we will have to deal with that another way. But fact is…this is what the word means.

Before I had any desire to serve God, God came to me via His drawing. It was the drawing of the Holy Spirit that placed within my breast desire to be obedient to the demands of the gospel.

>>>>> THIS IS THE BEST PART OF THIS POST!!!
See that word desire you used above? That is what I’m talking about. Desire is the longing..and God put it there. You have now gone against what you said above.

Just the same, those desires in no way were coercive in nature.

This is where you are wrong. You chose what you love or desire. With no desire, you will not choose it. Like the ice cream. I choose rocky road because I desire to have it. If God placed a desire to come to him in you, you acted on that desire and this is the draw that the Bible speaks of. BTW…I do believe this is what happens.

This is the same point I made last week in another thread. We sin, because we see something good in sin. Other wise, we would not chose to sin. We can only choose God when God places this desire in us, and with this desire we will chose what we see as a need...what we want...what we desire.

This is why when the Bible says...I draw all men...it cannot mean all of mankind, but rather all men that come I draw. For if it did mean all mankind, then all would have a desire to come to Christ and this you must agree is not what we see.

They did not force me to act in a given way.

No force…I agree. It is the longing to come that God places in you…and He does not have to force you…you come because you now desire to come.

If you have no other possibility other than to choose Rocky Road, you have not chosen Rocky Road.

I agree. But this does not address the will.

Choice involves having two or more possible consequent for any given antecedent. If there is only one possible consequent, as in your illustration concerning Rocky Road, choice is impossible to conceive of.

Choice indeed is more then one. But the will limits that choice to our most loved object at that moment. We will always be controlled by our will as to where we place our love. Therefore…even with God as a choice given to all man, it is mans will that will not let him choose God. The reason is clear. Man sees no need to choose God, for his love is elsewhere. Man loves his sin to much to choose God. Or maybe man thinks he is not that bad, where he needs to choose God. At any rate mans will in that it is controled by sin, will not let man choose God. It controls man. When God places the desire to come to God in us…the drawing we have been talking about..this is when we now will choose God, for then we see a need for God. This is now where our love is.


I have to cut this short. I have a column to write.

 

[BobRyan]

HP said

HP: First, BR and myself do not agree on God’s drawing. BR claims that God draw all in the sense of granting to all the opportunity to hear and respond to the gospel. I disagree. God certainly draws all men by granting to them some knowledge of a God, and certainly convicts them of sin in one degree ro another, but Scripture no where states that all have had the opportunity to hear and respond to the gospel as BR falsely claims.

Almost correct.

In fact HP claims that the Gospel proclaimed to all has to be "a certain level of story telling".

Bob denies that point and uses Romans 1, Romans 2 and Romans 10 to prove it.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
helkō

1) to draw, drag off
2) metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel



I am saying that those who THEN choose (and surely some of them will) to OPEN the door will find that Christ DOES COME IN and fellowship with them as stated in REv 3.

Where is the draw in this statement? I see no longing...no power within...no pulling to the object.

The DRAW that we see in John 12:32 "I will DRAW ALL unto ME" speaks to that metaphore of leading someone to Christ.

In Rev 3 we see it in the form of Christ knocking on the door AND enabling the person to both hear AND open the door.

in Christ,

bob

 

[BobRyan]

In my "longing" to understand the free-will side and how it handles the word "draw" you have not addressed the meaning of the word, but chose to dodge it so that you may paint flower words of nothingness.

Originally Posted by BobRyan
helkō

1) to draw, drag off
2) metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel



I am saying that those who THEN choose (and surely some of them will) to OPEN the door will find that Christ DOES COME IN and fellowship with them as stated in REv 3.
[/quote]

As Already stated this is a metaphore for LEAD and ENABLE.

The VOICE of Christ and the knocking on the door done by Christ as well as the supernatural ENABLING of the one ALONE on the inside so they can open the door if they so choose.

Drawing is not a passive feeling. It is a inward desire.

Your issue is with God on that point -- the definition CLEARLY allows for someone to be lead to the Gospel and the impulse on the heart to accept Christ is of the Holy Spirit -- but no force.. the person is ENABLED to choose.

For you and Bob to claim "all men are draw to God"...means that if God is a choice that man has such a longing for God that they will chose God. Is this what we see? I think not.

You are "spinning the idea" not reading the points and responding so we keep having to give the SAME response back again - until you actually acknowledge it and then go to the NEXT step in the discussion. So now ACCEPTING the answer given AND THEN asking your question (which would make far more sense to test the answer given) the QUESTION BECOMES "hmm so you SAY that all mankind is being ENABLED to choose and given access to Christ -- where some CHOOSE to accept and others do not CHOOSE to accept salvation. So do we SEE That when we look at the world? DO WE SEE people in the same groups where SOME appear to choose the path of Christ while many others REJECT?? Hmm yes we do!!"

Your tactic of "continually circling back to hear the same answer again" is tiresome.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JA: I have to cut this short. I have a column to write.

HP: May the Lord grant you wisdom.

 

[Jarthur001]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
helkō

1) to draw, drag off
2) metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel



I am saying that those who THEN choose (and surely some of them will) to OPEN the door will find that Christ DOES COME IN and fellowship with them as stated in REv 3.

Your tactic of "continually circling back to hear the same answer again" is tiresome.

in Christ,

Bob
[/QUOTE]

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1033826&postcount=59

Rev 3 "I stand at the door and knock if ANYONE opens the door I WILL come in

"

In context of the passage...what does door mean? Before you answer... remember door is found two times in the passage of Rev 3.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1034028&postcount=67

I will ask again.

Let me put it in a list so it is easy to follow.

SNIP........................
2) In Rev 3 "If anyone HEARS my voice AND (chooses to) OPEN the door then I WILL come in". .....The word door is talked about two times in chapter 3. In context of the passage...what does door mean? SNIP................

it does get old....does it not?

Tell you what BOB.

I'll address REV 3 again.....when you address what I have posted on it from the beginning.

 

[Jarthur001]

hello?

 

[BobRyan]

OK - it is one thing to say that I missed some pointed question "asked" it is another thing to claim that you are asking questions that KEEP GETTING ANSWERED and then asking the same one again.

Never-the-less the Door of Rev 3 is the door to the heart/soul/conscience when Christ says "I stand at the door and knock"


Adam Clarke
http://www.godrules.net/library/clarke/clarkerev3.htm

Be zealous] Be in earnest, to get your souls saved, They had no zeal; this was their bane. He now stirs them up to diligence in the use of the means of grace and repentance for their past sins and remissness.

Verse 20. Behold, I stand at the door and knock] There are many sayings of this kind among the ancient rabbins; thus in Shir Hashirim Rabba, fol.
25, 1: "God said to the Israelites, My children, open to me one door of repentance, even so wide as the eye of a needle, and I will open to you doors through which calves and horned cattle may pass." In Sohar Levit, fol. 8, col. 32, it is said: "If a man conceal his sin, and do not open it before the holy King, although he ask mercy, yet the door of repentance shall not be opened to him. But if he open it before the holy blessed God, God spares him, and mercy prevails over wrath; and when he laments, although all the doors were shut, yet they shall be opened to him, and his prayer shall be heard." Christ stands - waits long, at the door of the sinner's heart; he knocks - uses judgments, mercies, reproofs, exhortations, &c., to induce sinners to repent and turn to him; he lifts up his voice - calls loudly by his word, ministers, and Spirit.
If any man hear] If the sinner will seriously consider his state, and attend to the voice of his Lord.
And open the door] This must be his own act, receiving power for this purpose from his offended Lord, who will not break open the door; he will make no forcible entry.
I will come in to him] I will manifest myself to him, heal all his backslidings, pardon all his iniquities, and love him freely.
Will sup with him] Hold communion with him, feed him with the bread of life.
And he with me.] I will bring him at last to dwell with me in everlasting glory.

http://www.godrules.net/library/clarke/clarkerev3.htm

 

[Jarthur001]

OK - it is one thing to say that I missed some pointed question "asked" it is another thing to claim that you are asking questions that KEEP GETTING ANSWERED and then asking the same one again.

Never-the-less the Door of Rev 3 is the door to the heart/soul/conscience when Christ says "I stand at the door and knock"

and again I will point out..and this is what you always look over with no reply.

Rev 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;


Rev 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

WHPENS THE DOOR?

Yes Christ invites all..but who opens?

Who?

2nd..the full text is below
*************
to who was this letter address?

Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;


Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.


Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.


Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

***************
Now please notice this.

Heb 12: 6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Pro 19:18 Chasten thy son while there is hope, and let not thy soul spare for his crying.

2Sa 7:14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men

:

WHO DOES GOD CHASTEN????

God chastens His sons...

Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and [that] the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.


Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
************

Notice also is this salvation?

Is it up to YOU to buy salvation, or is salvation given? Notice they are asked to BUY so that they can be clothed...so that they will not be naked....so that they will be able to see.

Notice also that this was bought for Christ. The church was asked to BUY for CHRIST. So what was bought was all for Him? Now Christ did BUY us at the cross..and this is salvation. When is the non-believer ever asked to BUY for CHRIST?

When the Bible talks about salvation, where does it say...BUY gold for Christ that thou mayest see?

Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and [that] the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

***********************

WHO DOES GOD NOT CHASTEN?

Rom 1:18 ¶ For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;


Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.


Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:


Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.


Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,


Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.


Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:


Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.


Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:


Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.


Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;


Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,


Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,


Rom 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:


Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

***************
We can all see that the buying above was not salvation. But what about the door? Is this salvation or is this Christ asking the Church ...the very church He is writing to...to not to forget about Him when they think they are so rich and have need of nothing. Is this not Christ telling them they need to fellowship more with Him, to return to their 1st love?

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.


Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.


Rev 3:22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches

 

[Jarthur001]

just checkin back after a view days, and we still see nothing.

Could it be that free-willism does misuse this verse?

Here is my forecast of what we will see in the next few days.

1) they will keep dodging this thread and hope the subject changes or maybe the thread will move to the next page.

2) They will quote other writers, as they did with Adam Clarke, but not quote the passage in full. Reason..their view has no support in the text, so they must look outside the text.

3) They will not deal directly with the overwhelming evidence found above.

a) WHPENS THE DOOR?

Yes Christ invites all..but who opens?

b) WHO DOES GOD CHASTEN????

c) IS THIS PASSAGE ABOUT SALVATION?

 

[BobRyan]

I have to admit sometimes I do not come back as often as I should to view the thread and see what "the latest game is" --

OK - it is one thing to say that I missed some pointed question "asked" it is another thing to claim that you are asking questions that KEEP GETTING ANSWERED and then asking the same one again.

Never-the-less the Door of Rev 3 is the door to the heart/soul/conscience when Christ says "I stand at the door and knock"
and again I will point out..and this is what you always look over with no reply.


Quote:
Rev 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;


Rev 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

WHPENS THE DOOR?

Yes Christ invites all..but who opens?

7 ""And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: He who is holy, who is true, who has the key of David, who opens and no one will shut, and who shuts and no one opens, says this:
8 " I know your deeds. Behold, I have put before you an open door which no one can shut, because you have a little power, and have kept My word, and have not denied My name.
9 "Behold, I will cause those of the synagogue of Satan, who say that they are Jews and are not, but lieI will make them come and bow down at your feet, and make them know that I have loved you.
10 "Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
11 " I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, so that no one will take your crown.


Notice that Rev 3 message to Philadelphia approves of the Christian walk of the Christians of that church (of that church age prophetically). This message speaks to a faithful group of Christians who are enduring are approved are persevering.

Also this references a door in the sanctuary where Christ ministers as high priest – opened by Christ during the Church age of this specific church. What a huge contrast is the experience of the Church of Philadelphia to the last church age – the church of Laodicea.

But the good news for Laodicea and their CLOSED door - Christ is standing at their door and knocking. In this case of the hearts door -- Christ knocks and "if anyone hears AND OPENS" then HE will come in.

Rev 3
20 "Behold, [b]I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears[/b] My voice and opens[/b] the door, I will come in to him[/b] and will dine with him, and he with Me.

The shocking news for many of our Calvinist brethren is that there is NO salvation apart from Christ. Being separated from Christ -- you CAN not be saved without coming back into fellowship with Him. Rev 3:20 is good about showing the way to Salvation and Christ the AUTHOR of salvation stands at the door of the heart - of EVERY heart -- knocking for HE is the light that coming into the world "enlightens EVERY man" John 1.

John's message in both Rev and John 1 is clear and consistent!

 

[Jarthur001]

The shocking news for many of our Calvinist brethren is that there is NO salvation apart from Christ. Being separated from Christ -- you CAN not be saved without coming back into fellowship with Him. Rev 3:20 is good about showing the way to Salvation and Christ the AUTHOR of salvation stands at the door of the heart - of EVERY heart -- knocking for HE is the light that coming into the world "enlightens EVERY man" John 1.

John's message in both Rev and John 1 is clear and consistent!
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What is shocking, is that you believe salvation can be bought by man.

Notice to each church in Rev, we see Christ giving not only Judgment of their spiritual condition, and in all but two cases an condemnation of that condition, but also an exhortation in counsel as to what to do in order to get back on track.

So if we were look at the counsel given to the churches it would be clear as to what the subject is and to who it is addressed. Those to who it is addressed should be covered by now, for it does say church in each case. None-the-less, for those that cannot see past their doctrine, we have other ways to see this as well.

To the church of Ephesus we see this exhortation in counsel...

Nevertheless I have [somewhat] against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent

As we see it in our text.

Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and [that] the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

In all cases it is the church being called back into fellowship and not salvation. Works in all cases are after salvation, not before. In each letter to the churches Christ addresses the WORKS of that church. If this be salvation, then works are part of it and in the text, it is us, and not Christ that buys the fix for our condition.

Truth is, it is not salvation and this "key verse" in your doctrine is but misused sir.

 

[BobRyan]

When I point out that there is no salvation apart from Christ and that this point comes as a shock to many Calvinists -- Jarthur001 responds with the apparently vaccuous

What is shocking, is that you believe salvation can be bought by man.[/quiote]

"salvation bought by man"???

Were in the world did THAT come from???

Hint: this would be a good time to show such a quote from me.

Notice to each church in Rev, we see Christ giving not only Judgment of their spiritual condition, and in all but two cases a condemnation of that condition,

Indeed no condemnation for Philadelphia...

However in THIS case we are talking about Laodicea - "Remember"??

There is basically no way to "trick the reader" into ignoring the text and looking at the case of the "persevering and faithful" church of Philadelphia AS IF we could substitute THEIR case in for the Laodicians who are by contrast "poor blind miserable and naked" -- who are alone on the inside with door of their heart closed and Christ on the outside knocking...

Notice what Christ said??

"IF ANYONE hears My voice AND OPENS the door" Then what? " I WILL come in"...

Pretty hard to miss!! (At least for the objective unbiased reader).

Put against that - you simply offer your fervent hop that the reader will ignore the text we have been given --

Jarthur001
Truth is, it is not salvation and this "key verse" in your doctrine is but misused sir.

Sadly - your tactic of simply repeating a wild assertion such as the one above does nothing to convince the objective unbiased reader against the force of the text in the message to Laodicea ...

Surely you notice that.

Salvation is NOT found "apart from Christ". In this case we find the sinner ALONE and on the INSIDE - while Christ stands OUTSIDE knocking and WAITING for the sinner to OPEN the door.. following that FELLOWSHIP with Christ takes place.

Rev 3
20 "Behold, [b]I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears[/b] My voice and opens[/b] the door, I will come in to him[/b] and will dine with him, and he with Me.

The constant efforts of some to salvage the man-made-doctrine of OSAS in this case - is usually in the form of "insisting on salvation apart from Christ".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Now please notice this.


Quote:
Heb 12: 6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Quote:
Pro 19:18 Chasten thy son while there is hope, and let not thy soul spare for his crying.

Quote:
2Sa 7:14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men
:

WHO DOES GOD CHASTEN????

Certainly Daniel is among those taken into capitivity when THE NATION of Israel was so separated from God and in such rebellion against God that they were choosing idols over the true God of Creation - the God of the Messiah.

But Daniel -- though also taken captive -- did not live APART from a strong supernatural relationship with God - in constant fellowship with God. He was not as one "ALONE on the inside with Christ on the outside knocking". Daniel was among the faithful as those of Philadelphia. He was one IN fellowship with Christ and persevering!

There is no way to bend or stretch this into "saved saints without Christ - saved and yet separated from Christ".

No amount of scripture wrenching and twisting in Heb 12 or in 2 Sam 7 is going to get you there.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Jarthur001]

When I point out that there is no salvation apart from Christ and that this point comes as a shock to many Calvinists -- Jarthur001 responds with the apparently vaccuous

What is shocking, is that you believe salvation can be bought by man.[/quiote]

"salvation bought by man"???

Were in the world did THAT come from???

Hint: this would be a good time to show such a quote from me.

If salvation is the subject as you claim...we must deal with exhortation in counsel found in the text.

Rev 3:18

I counsel thee to buy

of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and [that] the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

Is it up to YOU to buy salvation, or is salvation given? Notice they are asked to BUY so that they can be clothed...so that they will not be naked....so that they will be able to see.

Notice also that this was bought for Christ. The church was asked to BUY for CHRIST. So what was bought was all for Him? Now Christ did BUY us at the cross..and this is salvation. When is the non-believer ever asked to BUY for CHRIST?

Indeed no condemnation for Philadelphia...

However in THIS case we are talking about Laodicea - "Remember"??

Yes...and in both cases there is a door...remember?

There is basically no way to "trick the reader" into ignoring the text and looking at the case of the "persevering and faithful" church of Philadelphia AS IF we could substitute THEIR case in for the Laodicians who are by contrast "poor blind miserable and naked" -- who are alone on the inside with door of their heart closed and Christ on the outside knocking...

Notice what Christ said??

Yes He told them what to do...He said BUY. Is this salvation?

"IF ANYONE hears My voice AND OPENS the door" Then what? " I WILL come in"...

Pretty hard to miss!! (At least for the objective unbiased reader).

it is very easy to understand. this is also easy to understand....THIS IS THE CHURCH>>>A local body of believers. If this is salvation ...then we most say salvation is bought.

I counsel thee to buy

of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and [that] the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

Put against that - you simply offer your fervent hop that the reader will ignore the text we have been given --

Not at all. However, I do wish you would take the whole text and not part of it. understand? yet?

Salvation is NOT found "apart from Christ". In this case we find the sinner ALONE and on the INSIDE - while Christ stands OUTSIDE knocking and WAITING for the sinner to OPEN the door.. following that FELLOWSHIP with Christ takes place.

It would say this, if we change the text as you would have us. However if we stick with the text as found in the Bible we see Christ on the outside of a church that thought they were rich, but had forgot about Him. Church is the key would to remember here. Church...or local body of believer as found in each church addressed has means they were "called out ones"...or saints.

AGAIN WE SAY...God chasteneth his sons. The text clearly says these people are chastened. Should we change the text here too? Why not just let the text stand as we find it????

Hebrews supports this view...

Heb 12: 6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.