Some flaws to Calvinism.. Reformed we need to get it together!

[Winman]

We will always have these disagreements. I see Ephesians 2:1 as affirming those doctrines, but I understand (maybe not here, but I will read the thread if it is on the BB) that there are other interpretations. My point is that you do not dismiss Scripture to arrive at your position any more than I dismiss Scripture to arrive at mine. We cannot simply combat each others view by saying “Scripture says” because we both know what Scripture says. We understand and interpret Scripture differently. I think that you are wrong, you think me wrong - certainly at least one of us is wrong …but it is a minor issue because of what we have right.

I completely disagree. Calvinists often completely ignore scripture that obviously refutes them.

For instance, I have asked any Calvinist to show scripture that shows we receive the Holy Spirit before belief. To this day, no Calvinist has shown a single scripture to support this.

To the contrary, I have presented nearly a dozen scriptures that all clearly show a person first believes and receives the Spirit afterward. Yet Calvinists insist their view is correct.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

You might get offended, but I have concluded that almost all Calvinists are intellectually dishonest. This is not an issue of interpretation, these scriptures are clear and undeniable.

I cannot count how many times I and others have presented clear scripture that refutes Calvinism, Calvinists simply insist their view is correct even when all scripture contradicts it. That is dishonesty.

 

[evangelist6589]

Calvinism is attractive because it is intellectually complex and very consistent within itself. If the T is correct, therefore the U, L, I, and P must be correct.

Calvinism appeals to those who like to believe themselves intellectuals. They think they alone are privy to those great discoveries beyond the grasp of common men. It is also very satisfying to believe they are the "elect", those precious persons God has chosen. They will never outwardly say this, but it is nearly impossible not to feel a little pride when you believe you are one of the few elect.

The problem with Calvinism is that is is not consistent with scripture. Calvinism is inconsistent with Jesus crying over Jerusalem, lamenting how often he would have gathered them under his wings as a hen gathers her chicks, but they would not. Calvinism cannot deal with this as it utterly refutes their whole system, so they tend to simply ignore it.

Folks should quit trying to put the word of God in a box, in a system. It does't work like that. Read the scriptures for what they say, and believe what they say.

You should do the same. You teach that man was not born with a sin nature, but BECOMES a sinner. I have given you verses but you deny them. The wicked are indeed estranged from the womb and go forth speaking lies. Yes babies when they get to be of age will speak lies.

 

[JonC]

I completely disagree. Calvinists often completely ignore scripture that obviously refutes them.

For instance, I have asked any Calvinist to show scripture that shows we receive the Holy Spirit before belief. To this day, no Calvinist has shown a single scripture to support this.

To the contrary, I have presented nearly a dozen scriptures that all clearly show a person first believes and receives the Spirit afterward. Yet Calvinists insist their view is correct.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

You might get offended, but I have concluded that almost all Calvinists are intellectually dishonest. This is not an issue of interpretation, these scriptures are clear and undeniable.

I cannot count how many times I and others have presented clear scripture that refutes Calvinism, Calvinists simply insist their view is correct even when all scripture contradicts it. That is dishonesty.

Not all Calvinists believe that salvation follows regeneration. But I don't know of any who do not believe that men, who are lost, are saved by the work of the Spirit (then again, I really don't know of any Arminians who would reject that idea either). But I agree with you that we receive the gift of the Holy Ghost after (or perhaps at the same time) as salvation. I believe that salvation is the work of God, and that the Holy Spirit works in the lives of all people (even those who will not believe) - I doubt you will have trouble finding Scripture to affirm that statement. The problem I have is when we try to break down salvation into such micro-elements. I do not know it is possible, and if it is I do not know if the doctrine that results is worth standing upon.

I will never get offended by our disagreements. I pray that I do not offend by presenting opposing views. It is a matter of discussing and working through doctrine, and much of reasoning things out. So of course there will be disagreements.

 

[evangelist6589]

Exactly. Non Cals interpret the same scripture differently from Calvinists.

The trouble is, we cannot both be correct. Either we are both wrong and another interpretation is the truth, or one of us is correct and the other in error. But we cannot hold contrasting views and both be correct, that is logically impossible.

Thats because God has given us LIBERTY and Calvinism is not an essential of the faith. Yes Reformed theology best matches with scripture, however plenty of Arminian are saved and will be in heaven.

Like the music debate, the bible translation debate, the debate on alcoholic beverages, modes of Baptism, ways to do open air preaching, and eschatology God has given people liberty.

 

[Luke2427]

The biggest is being called Calvinism when it should be called Reformed Theology. You know why? Because those that disagree say we are basing a system of theology on a dead person whom lived in the 16th century when in reality we are relying on the Bible.

If I lived my life based on what morons think, I would be wasting my life.

Who cares what they think?

John Calvin systematized these doctrines like no one else in history.

Calvinism has done more for the Gospel than any other system of thought in history.

Even Eric Hankins, a rabid anti-Calvinist, acknowledges that Calvinism gave us our high view of God and Scripture!

Amerigo Vespucci is the explorer whose name our continent bears. Do you say, "I am not an AMERICAN. I am a Declaration of Indepencist because I don't want anybody saying that I follow a man who died 500 years ago"?

No.

So this is unwarranted on many levels.

A book I am reading is explaining the history and defending the five points with scripture. Arminian have a great issue with us because of this and they are correct. I do not like being called Calvinist, I like being called Reformed.

Only a fool lets his enemies define him.

Another flaw is the combative non graceful manner that some speak and treat those that disagree. I had a chat with a strong Calvinist a few months back and he was very condemning towards my wife and even hinted that she was a false convert. She is not Reformed but she loves the Lord. This man did not even know my wife nor her testimony.

Nobody is ruder than Arminians who attack Calvinists and try to purge the SBC of them.

NOBODY on baptistboard,even including me, is any more insulting and condemnatory than Winman and Van.

This is just a bogus claim that dumb people make who feel threatened by more intelligent Calvinsts who beat them in debates.

Also once I went to see a popular preacher in Atlanta, GA and some hard calvinists were out open air preaching and passing out flyers condemning a whole bunch of non Reformed leaders some of which were.

David Jeremiah
Charles Stanley
Erwin Lutzer
Greg Laurie
Charles Swindoll
Chip Ingram
Charles Colson
Woodrow Crow
Randy Alcorn
Yes they had billboards and passed out flyers condemning these men!!! Well they did not mention Luzter, but when I asked them about him they had some bad things to say about him as well, because he does not teach Lordship salvation and uses the sinners prayer.

Some stupid Calvinists do this.

 

[Winman]

Thats because God has given us LIBERTY and Calvinism is not an essential of the faith. Yes Reformed theology best matches with scripture, however plenty of Arminian are saved and will be in heaven.

You don't have a clue, Reformed theology is nowhere near correct. I could show you hundreds of verses that all contradict Calvinism. I am not an Arminian, but Arminians are MUCH closer to what the scriptures are saying than Calvinists, no contest.

Like the music debate, the bible translation debate, the debate on alcoholic beverages, modes of Baptism, ways to do open air preaching, and eschatology God has given people liberty.

It's not about what you like, it about life and death and what the scriptures are REALLY teaching. Where you spend eternity depends on knowing the truth. They don't sell Mike's Hard Lemonade in hell.

 

[Revmitchell]

Its getting a bit cagey in here

 

[evangelist6589]

If I lived my life based on what morons think, I would be wasting my life.

Who cares what they think?

John Calvin systematized these doctrines like no one else in history.

Calvinism has done more for the Gospel than any other system of thought in history.

Even Eric Hankins, a rabid anti-Calvinist, acknowledges that Calvinism gave us our high view of God and Scripture!

Amerigo Vespucci is the explorer whose name our continent bears. Do you say, "I am not an AMERICAN. I am a Declaration of Indepencist because I don't want anybody saying that I follow a man who died 500 years ago"?

No.

So this is unwarranted on many levels.




Only a fool lets his enemies define him.



Nobody is ruder than Arminians who attack Calvinists and try to purge the SBC of them.

NOBODY on baptistboard,even including me, is any more insulting and condemnatory than Winman and Van.

This is just a bogus claim that dumb people make who feel threatened by more intelligent Calvinsts who beat them in debates.



Some stupid Calvinists do this.

Perhaps I worry too much about what others think. Yes indeed I may be a fool in this area. You are right about WinMan. The man is self-righteous and thinks he knows everything. To top it off the man won't even read the arguments of Reformed in books as he cannot, as he is afraid to do so.

Regarding evangelism no one can define me. I believe WOTM is the best but not the only method. Reformed and Arminian whom disagree will not define me. Perhaps its more of a personality thing, but thats me and thats the way I fit in best.

Lots of Hard Line Dispensationalists believe in abstaining from alcoholic beverages to be in their 10 commandments to being holy list, but they have it wrong, as plenty drink in moderation and can be closer to God than someone whom has a list of DO's and Dont's.

 

[evangelist6589]

Its getting a bit cagey in here

I am getting tired. Need to get back to reading my books.

 

[Luke2427]

You don't have a clue, Reformed theology is nowhere near correct. I could show you hundreds of verses that all contradict Calvinism. I am not an Arminian, but Arminians are MUCH closer to what the scriptures are saying than Calvinists, no contest.



It's not about what you like, it about life and death and what the scriptures are REALLY teaching. Where you spend eternity depends on knowing the truth. They don't sell Mike's Hard Lemonade in hell.

And those who misrepresent the word of God by countless abuses of proof texts manipulated to saying what they WANT it to say will wish there WERE such beverages in hell to quench their undying thirsts

 

[Winman]

And those who misrepresent the word of God by countless abuses of proof texts manipulated to saying what they WANT it to say will wish there WERE such beverages in hell to quench their undying thirsts

You better go fishing while you still can.

 

[Luke2427]

You better go fishing while you still can.

Whatever that means...

 

[evangelist6589]

You better go fishing while you still can.

Do you fish? How often are you out hitting the streets by passing out tracts, talking with people about their eternal destiny, and open air preaching?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The biggest is being called Calvinism when it should be called Reformed Theology. You know why? Because those that disagree say we are basing a system of theology on a dead person whom lived in the 16th century when in reality we are relying on the Bible. A book I am reading is explaining the history and defending the five points with scripture. Arminian have a great issue with us because of this and they are correct. I do not like being called Calvinist, I like being called Reformed.

Another flaw is the combative non graceful manner that some speak and treat those that disagree. I had a chat with a strong Calvinist a few months back and he was very condemning towards my wife and even hinted that she was a false convert. She is not Reformed but she loves the Lord. This man did not even know my wife nor her testimony.

Also once I went to see a popular preacher in Atlanta, GA and some hard calvinists were out open air preaching and passing out flyers condemning a whole bunch of non Reformed leaders some of which were.

David Jeremiah
Charles Stanley
Erwin Lutzer
Greg Laurie
Charles Swindoll
Chip Ingram
Charles Colson
Woodrow Crow
Randy Alcorn

Yes they had billboards and passed out flyers condemning these men!!! Well they did not mention Luzter, but when I asked them about him they had some bad things to say about him as well, because he does not teach Lordship salvation and uses the sinners prayer.

Fellow Reformed we need to get it together! Arminian do have a point.

The point is merely at the top of their heads....:laugh:

I am not sure you can provide that much definition to your beliefs at this point & Im pretty certain you dont understand the intermingling in Calvinism & Reformed theology. Also, I dont think you completely understand the different types of Arminians & Non-Calvinists that are out there so how could you possibly put definition to your beliefs when you dont have the knowledge or the experience to do that job?

 

[OldRegular]

Calvinism is attractive because it is intellectually complex and very consistent within itself. If the T is correct, therefore the U, L, I, and P must be correct.

Calvinism appeals to those who like to believe themselves intellectuals. They think they alone are privy to those great discoveries beyond the grasp of common men. It is also very satisfying to believe they are the "elect", those precious persons God has chosen. They will never outwardly say this, but it is nearly impossible not to feel a little pride when you believe you are one of the few elect.

The problem with Calvinism is that is is not consistent with scripture. Calvinism is inconsistent with Jesus crying over Jerusalem, lamenting how often he would have gathered them under his wings as a hen gathers her chicks, but they would not. Calvinism cannot deal with this as it utterly refutes their whole system, so they tend to simply ignore it.

Folks should quit trying to put the word of God in a box, in a system. It does't work like that. Read the scriptures for what they say, and believe what they say.

So says Winman, the one point Calvinist!

 

[evangelist6589]

The point is merely at the top of their heads....:laugh:

I am not sure you can provide that much definition to your beliefs at this point & Im pretty certain you dont understand the intermingling in Calvinism & Reformed theology. Also, I dont think you completely understand the different types of Arminians & Non-Calvinists that are out there so how could you possibly put definition to your beliefs when you dont have the knowledge or the experience to do that job?

And you do???

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

And you do???

Why yes...I do:thumbs:

 

[Winman]

So says Winman, the one point Calvinist!

I am not a one point Calvinist, I believe in preservation of the Saints, not perseverance. I am not working to be saved, I am not enduring to the end, I am born again of incorruptible seed.

Do you know what "incorruptible" means?

What I believe and what you believe are very different.

 

[evangelist6589]

Why yes...I do:thumbs:

You think more than you know man.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You think more than you know man.

And you have alieniated almost everyone on this forum....good work:thumbs: