Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
What a convenient response for you......
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Some Objections to AD70 Rapture Answered
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Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Also, still waiting on your scriptural proof....
Two broad classes of Scripture:
1. The passages that prove individual resurrection and rapture. This is something I think we both believe. Sadly for me, most of my fellow-preterists do not believe this.
2. The passage that prove fulfillment of this event in the Parousia of our Lord within the lifetime of His contemporaries on Earth.
These second passages are often called the "time texts" and have to do with audience relevance. For instance, Paul assured his Thessalonian believers that they would get relief from the Jews that were persecuting them. And that is exactly what happened. Throughout the Diaspora, that is to say almost the same area as the Roman Empire, the tables were turned against the Jews. During the War with Rome they had no opportunity to bother Christians. They had their hands full with the Romans. Before the war they were able to get Roman help to hound Christians. We see this in the Book of Acts.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
I was hoping I would get actual Scripture and not conjecture.
Quit with the breezy one-liners or I will assume you are Yeshua1.
My response is based on my reading on this topic. To say I am looking for a "convenient" response is pretty insulting. I am trying to be helpful in my responses to you, brother. Maybe you could be more respectful.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Oh brother give me a break. You gave a convenient response. You ignored the fact that I obliterated your point.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Your position is not based in Scripture, it is not based in historical evidence, it's quite frankly utterly ridiculous.
I am not going to reinvent the wheel, certainly not for you. Here are some posts on the subject for you to look at. Or not.
I will not be seeing any more of your posts.
https://www.baptistboard.com/threads/soonness-a-fact-that-needs-to-be-dealt-with.59999/#post-1459797
https://www.baptistboard.com/threads/satan-crushed-shortly.111314/#post-2480573
https://www.baptistboard.com/thread...fore-the-son-of-man-comes.61727/#post-1498454
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
No, the fact is you can't post any actual evidence to your claim because your claim is bogus. Plain and simple.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
In my opinion, there is no Scriptural proof or even support, neither is there any historical evidence that all of the things mentioned in the Scriptures regarding the end times have taken place, especially the second coming and the believer's "catching away" to be with the Lord.
There these references that are often referred to in order to prove that it all ( or most ) has happened already:
" And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
30 when they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. " ( Luke 21:31-32 ).
"Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:
29 so ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, [even] at the doors.
30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. " ( Mark 13:29-30 ).
" Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 so likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, [even] at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away." ( Matthew 24:32-35 ).
In the parallel accounts that precede these statements ( which are where I see the timing of the end events ), I see one thing that the Lord says that can be taken one of two ways:
"...This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."
"...This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
Do you see the difference?
I'm almost sure that you do, and I'm almost sure that you've probably considered everything that I've posted, yourself.
The "a-millennialist / Preterist / partial Preterist" believes that it is the generation that is alive when the Lord Jesus spoke these things.
That all of those things happened ( or were supposed to have happened ) when the generation He spoke to, was still alive.
The "Futurist" believes that it is the generation that is alive when all those things, in their entirety, come to pass and each and every one of them is fulfilled in the eyes of the believer and in the eyes of the Lord Himself;
and since they have not historically happened and been concluded in history ( which seems to be a matter of debate ),
then many of those things, especially the Lord's return, are yet to happen.
It's a very subtle difference in wording and understanding, but it results in a very wide difference regarding when the Lord comes again, when He gathers His elect to Him, and when events such as Anti-Christ sitting in the temple and declaring himself to be God and the Tribulation happen / happened.
I'm almost sure that you do, and I'm almost sure that you've probably considered everything that I've posted, yourself.
The "a-millennialist / Preterist / partial Preterist" believes that it is the generation that is alive when the Lord Jesus spoke these things.
That all of those things happened ( or were supposed to have happened ) when the generation He spoke to, was still alive.
The "Futurist" believes that it is the generation that is alive when all those things, in their entirety, come to pass and each and every one of them is fulfilled in the eyes of the believer and in the eyes of the Lord Himself;
and since they have not historically happened and been concluded in history ( which seems to be a matter of debate ),
then many of those things, especially the Lord's return, are yet to happen.
It's a very subtle difference in wording and understanding, but it results in a very wide difference regarding when the Lord comes again, when He gathers His elect to Him, and when events such as Anti-Christ sitting in the temple and declaring himself to be God and the Tribulation happen / happened.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
The main problem that I as a "Futurist" am seeing is, not only do I read all of this very different than the first group, I see that only around half of the things described in the prior verses ( and related passages ) in each account as having already happened.
Here are some that I don't see as having happened:
1) A man who will go on to rule the known world ( Anti-Christ or "the beast" ) has not yet been wounded in the head near to death and made a miraculous recovery ( Revelation 13:3 ),
2) That same man has not participated in, or confirmed a 7 year treaty... which is punctuated at the midway point by him committing the abomination of desolation ( Daniel 9:27, Matthew 24:15, Mark 13:14 ) and Jerusalem being compassed ( surrounded ) by armies ( Luke 21:20 ) at the end,
3) The Judgments of God that the entire world will see and experience, far worse than the plagues of Egypt and are worldwide ( Matthew 24:21-22, Revelation 4 through Revelation 19 ) have not happened yet, and are being described by some Preterists as being "localized",
4) The contents of Matthew 24:29-31 and Matthew 24:36-41 have not yet happened, in which people are suddenly taken away, while others are left.
If it had happened, then even unbelievers would have known about it.
5) As a believer, I already know that the Lord has not returned, as per Matthew 24, Mark 13 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, or we would all be with Him right now.
Either that, or we are all kidding ourselves that any of us is saved.
6) There has been no "millennium" in which the literal fulfillment of Zechariah 12 through Zechariah 14 has ever happened.
7) There has been no mark that people who worshiped the "beast", per the edicts of the false prophet, were commanded to receive ( Revelation 13:11-18 ) or be put to death...
Either in their forehead or in their right hand.
Nowhere in history has there ever been such a thing, and on a worldwide scale.
But the technology exists today whereby such a thing as a barcode could be used ...in order to access to a worldwide database that contains all of a person's information.
There are many others, but suffice it to say, that if the things that are described as happening sequentially one right after the other in Mathew 24:29-31 have not happened yet...and we are not, all of us as believers now with the Lord... then the whole thing being held to falls apart.
To me, there is no "gap" between the Tribulation and His second coming, and there is no "gap" between His second coming and His catching us away to be with Him..
And to rule and reign with Him for 1,000 years from Jerusalem.
But there has been a rather large gap between when He ascended and when the fullness of the Gentiles coming in, will be concluded.
Here are some that I don't see as having happened:
1) A man who will go on to rule the known world ( Anti-Christ or "the beast" ) has not yet been wounded in the head near to death and made a miraculous recovery ( Revelation 13:3 ),
2) That same man has not participated in, or confirmed a 7 year treaty... which is punctuated at the midway point by him committing the abomination of desolation ( Daniel 9:27, Matthew 24:15, Mark 13:14 ) and Jerusalem being compassed ( surrounded ) by armies ( Luke 21:20 ) at the end,
3) The Judgments of God that the entire world will see and experience, far worse than the plagues of Egypt and are worldwide ( Matthew 24:21-22, Revelation 4 through Revelation 19 ) have not happened yet, and are being described by some Preterists as being "localized",
4) The contents of Matthew 24:29-31 and Matthew 24:36-41 have not yet happened, in which people are suddenly taken away, while others are left.
If it had happened, then even unbelievers would have known about it.
5) As a believer, I already know that the Lord has not returned, as per Matthew 24, Mark 13 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, or we would all be with Him right now.
Either that, or we are all kidding ourselves that any of us is saved.
6) There has been no "millennium" in which the literal fulfillment of Zechariah 12 through Zechariah 14 has ever happened.
7) There has been no mark that people who worshiped the "beast", per the edicts of the false prophet, were commanded to receive ( Revelation 13:11-18 ) or be put to death...
Either in their forehead or in their right hand.
Nowhere in history has there ever been such a thing, and on a worldwide scale.
But the technology exists today whereby such a thing as a barcode could be used ...in order to access to a worldwide database that contains all of a person's information.
There are many others, but suffice it to say, that if the things that are described as happening sequentially one right after the other in Mathew 24:29-31 have not happened yet...and we are not, all of us as believers now with the Lord... then the whole thing being held to falls apart.
To me, there is no "gap" between the Tribulation and His second coming, and there is no "gap" between His second coming and His catching us away to be with Him..
And to rule and reign with Him for 1,000 years from Jerusalem.
But there has been a rather large gap between when He ascended and when the fullness of the Gentiles coming in, will be concluded.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
@Reformed1689 :
So, in my estimation, the burden of proof lies at the feet of men like Tom... who must prove, beyond a doubt, that all of the things spoken of in Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, and most of what is contained in the prophecies of Daniel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Zechariah, much of Revelation and others, have actually come to pass....
In the generation that was still alive when the Lord spoke those things.
Since they are unable to substantiate all of this from history,
then we look for a Saviour to come, a 1,000 years to come, and new heavens and a new earth, knowing that some of it has yet to happen.
This is why I will not discuss this subject further with him, Dave.
He's convinced, as a matter of truth, that most or all of it has happened... and I am not.
In addition, this being his thread, we can discuss this in another, if you wish.
I don't feel that I can continue in this one, especially considering that I've already told him that I would not reply to his posts anymore.
May God bless you.
So, in my estimation, the burden of proof lies at the feet of men like Tom... who must prove, beyond a doubt, that all of the things spoken of in Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, and most of what is contained in the prophecies of Daniel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Zechariah, much of Revelation and others, have actually come to pass....
In the generation that was still alive when the Lord spoke those things.
Since they are unable to substantiate all of this from history,
then we look for a Saviour to come, a 1,000 years to come, and new heavens and a new earth, knowing that some of it has yet to happen.
This is why I will not discuss this subject further with him, Dave.
He's convinced, as a matter of truth, that most or all of it has happened... and I am not.
In addition, this being his thread, we can discuss this in another, if you wish.
I don't feel that I can continue in this one, especially considering that I've already told him that I would not reply to his posts anymore.
May God bless you.
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Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
We think the same on this.
timtofly
Well-Known Member
Thank you. Mark gives more details.
"But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized: But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared. And when the ten heard it, they began to be much displeased with James and John."
Was John not thrown into the burning oil and literally baptized by death?
Tradition also claims John never aged after that. At least the tradition that goes against him becoming an old man and dying. Moses never aged either, after the encounter with God on Mt. Sinai. If John went through the valley of the shadow of death, and came out on the other side, would he like Moses never see death again? John never was recorded as disobeying God, like Moses did, as far as we know. Just something to think about.
John would have fulfilled what Jesus said, but neither the Jews nor Rome could destroy his body. Dating do to his early death has discrepancies in what can be said about John dying or not dying. He should not have survived being boiled in oil, unless that event never happened.
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I have read all those traditions. The one about him being in oil IMO might be true. At any rate that story ended up in some versions of Mark. And it is repeated by a number of church fathers, one of whom goes further to say that, John having survived this attempt at his life, the frustrated Jews then connived through the Romans to have him exiled to Patmos.
So the order is reversed. First the oil incident and then Patmos. But once John was released he went back to Ephesus to continue his ministry, Rev. 10:9.
I think the language of the prophecy (drinking the cup) implies death. And a death at the hand of the Jews, just like Jesus.
IMV I think the notion of Jesus passing though the valley of death in the way you write it was not the case.
The other traditions - and I think they are just that - like him chasing down a wayward disciple do not seem to fit the supposedly 80ish year old John. It may stem from a possible other John who was also in Ephesus. I forget where I saw this in the ECF, typing fast so I make the cut here.
Thanks for answering. Hopefully my answer will still get through. (I really wish they would let threads peter out on their own.)
I understand the tares to be the nephilim
“As it was in the days of Noah”
the nephilim are gathered first… then the church.
thanks for your reply.
This thread is closed.
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