"some of you" believe not

[Amy.G]

What? You defend a doctrine you know little about?

I defend God's word. Just because I'm not familiar with 2 words doesn't mean I don't understand God's grace and sovereignty.
You should be happy that I don't know everything written by Calvin, but rather I quote the Bible.

And you don't know everything either!

 

[The Biblicist]

LOL, you still don't get it. If I said my neighbors NEVER go to church, no, not one, would you understand that to mean they were UNABLE to go to church?

If "you" said it, no I would never think that because who are "you"? However, if God said it, then it is absolute because God never lies and would never says "NEVER" if it was anything but "NEVER."

Second, again you must jerk a word out of a Biblical context and place it in YOUR OWN TAYLOR MADE CONTEXT to escape God's chosen context which does not provide any escape and twisting of His words due to the context HE PLACED IT IN.

In the context he placed it in, there is no possible way it can be interpreted any other way but total depravity ["enmity with God and not subject to the law of God] coupled with total inability [neither indeed can be] rather than "under some conditions cannot be" (as you read and interpret it).

Just because these persons have always resisted the Holy Spirit does not mean they are unable to repent and believe. You simply assume Total Inability, this scripture (and no scripture) does not say, prove, or even imply inability.

First, YOU are "supposing" against the absolute denial of God's word (Roman 8:7) and agains the very meaning of the term "ALWAYS" which you interpret only as "ALMOST always). If they "ALWAYS RESIST" then "ALWAYS" THERE IS NO REPENTNCE AND FAITH OR ELSE THEY DO NOT "ALWAYS RESIST." That is total inability and total depravity perfectly joined together and stated in two words.

I agree, but this does not mean a person cannot think another way. Jesus said his disciples were indeed willing to obey him.

Mat 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

This has been refuted so many times and yet NOT ONE TIME have you ever responded to the evidences that refute this use of this text this way by you! Not once!

1. These are regenerated people not unregenerated people

2. Jesus clearly said that the Holy Spirit was "with" them prior to Pentecost. "He that is WITH you, shall be in you"

3. The flesh is NEVER REGENERATED but only the "SPIRIT" and that is why the "spirit is willing" (Jn. 3:6). Paul said "with my flesh I serve sin" (Rom. 7:25) as "the flesh" NEVER serves God and NEVER will as "THERE IS NOTHING GOOD (that is in my flesh" (Rom. 7:18). What paul calls "the flesh" is totally depraved and totally without ability to please God (Rom. 8:8).

You are grasping straws now. Paul always preached with the Holy Spirit.

First, you cannot prove that he "ALWAYS" preached in the power of the Holy Spirit as he was just a man not a sinless man.

Second, the Holy Sprit in Paul does not mean the Holy Spirit is working in the audiance. Now Jesus ALWAYS preached in the power of the Spirit but He even admitted that the vast part of His audiance had no interest in him except for food (Jn. 6).

Third, the text says that Herod was addressing Paul not the Holy Spirit as trying to persuade him to be a Christian.

I do not have to refute irresistible grace, it is not mentioned in scripture one single time. You need to prove that it exists.

Ezek. 36:27 "cause you" and Philip. 2:13 "work in you both TO WILL and TO DO of His Good pleasure."

Please do not claim that Ezek. 36:26-27 refers only to the Jews as the same promise is found in Jeremiah 31:33-34 as the "new covenant" which the writer of Hebrews applies directly to us (Heb.8; 10) and so does Paul in 2 Cor. 3:3-6

 

[Iconoclast]

Originally Posted by Iconoclast View Post
I was effectually drawn by the Father to the Son,by the Spirit...before I knew anything about reformed,non reformed....

Jesus seeks and saves those given to Him by the Father.

You just keep telling yourself that over and over again, and maybe someday you will be convinced.

You cannot grasp when God converts someone.You question it and doubt it each time.It must be frustrating.

 

[DrJamesAch]

LOL, you still don't get it. If I said my neighbors NEVER go to church, no, not one, would you understand that to mean they were UNABLE to go to church?
NO, and no logical and thoughtful person would ever assume that, yet that is exactly what you are doing, reading INABILITY into scripture where it is not mentioned.

Just because these persons have always resisted the Holy Spirit does not mean they are unable to repent and believe. You simply assume Total Inability, this scripture (and no scripture) does not say, prove, or even imply inability.



I agree, but this does not mean a person cannot think another way. Jesus said his disciples were indeed willing to obey him.

Mat 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

This was BEFORE the disciples received the Holy Spirit, so Jesus is speaking of their natural spirit here, and Jesus said they were WILLING. You can't simply ignore scripture you don't like.



You are grasping straws now. Paul always preached with the Holy Spirit.

I do not have to refute irresistible grace, it is not mentioned in scripture one single time. You need to prove that it exists.

Let him emphasize 2 Cor 5:11 again! "WE PERSUADE MEN". Does Paul PERSUADING someone to believe sound like irresistible grace or an appeal to the will to believe! He done stole one of my favorite texts and tried to use on us Non Cals.

 

[DrJamesAch]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iconoclast View Post
I was effectually drawn by the Father to the Son,by the Spirit...before I knew anything about reformed,non reformed....

Jesus seeks and saves those given to Him by the Father.
You just keep telling yourself that over and over again, and maybe someday you will be convinced.
You cannot grasp when God converts someone.You question it and doubt it each time.It must be frustrating.

__________________

You cannot grasp when God converts someone.You question it and doubt it each time.It must be frustrating.

Oh this is about as funny as Icon getting tricked into attacking his own "scholars". Icon just quoted himself, and told himself that he can't grasp God converting someone. :laugh:

Icon, whichever one of you made the last comment, tell him I agree!

 

[The Biblicist]

If the Holy Ghost is irresistible

That is not my claim or doctrine. The Holy Ghost is only irresistable when it comes to the chosen time for the elect to be saved. He is "ALWAYS" resisted outside those perimeters in regard to the presentation of the gospel.



,

then it makes no difference how you butcher Romans 8:7

You were unable and continue to be unable to defend your position of Romans 8:7-8. The proof is there for all to read in our posts dealing with that text. If you like to challenge that, then I will be more than happy to present the same evidence you fled from.

because regardless of whether a sinner is "ALWAYS" resisting, irresistible grace says HE CAN'T.

False! The fact is, the lost man by his very nature is at a state of war with God - that is active resistance, and "is not subject to the law of God and NEITHER INDEED CAN BE" that is active resistance to the revealed will of God and that is the same thing as saying "ALWAYS RESISTS."

On the other hand, irresistable grace occurs only at the point in time God has chosen to save His elect, so at ALL OTHER TIMES that fallen nature is in active RESISTANCE and will ALWAYS be in active resistance at all other times.

Acts 7:51 doesn't say that "Because they were unable, they were always resisting because they were bound to their nature" No it doesn't say that.

Acts 7:51 is not found in a DOCTRINAL context but is the observation of Stephen to their resistance of the Word of God or the revealed will of God. On the other hand, Romans 8:7 is found in a DOCTRINAL context and does explicitly state that and applies it explicity to all who are "in the flesh" or the lost man (Rom. 8:8). That is irrrefutable if HONESTY with the text is the objective.

Second, resistance to God's word must have a cause and that cause is defined by the doctrinal passages of God's word (Rom. 8:7-8).

Third, Stephen's observation was based upon his DOCTRINAL understanding of human nature as he included not merely his immediate audiance but their whole previous progenity. This was an observation made of human nature that he could apply to his immediate audiance and all who lived before them as this is the nature of all fallen men.

According to irresistible grace, God CHANGES THAT MIND SET

FALSE! The mindset of the "carnal" nature or "the flesh" CAN NEVER BE CHANGED but is condemned to death "this body OF DEATH" (Rom. 7:25) because the flesh "serves the law of sin" and there is "NOTHING GOOD (that is in my flesh)" (Rom. 7:18) and so it must be "moritified" by the power of the Spirit (Rom. 8:13) in the regenerated man. However, even in the regenerated man there is NO SALVATION for "the law of sin" because it is "the law of sin" and it is "enmity with God" and because it "is not subject to the law of God" and because "NEITHER INDEED CAN BE."

Your entire brush off of Acts 7:51 totally contradicts your own view of total inability for ALL OF US were dead in trespass and sins.

It only contradicts YOUR FALSE INTERPRETATION of my view. Irresistable grace in regard to the gospel only occurs at the elected time when God saves His elect but at all other times the fallen human nature "ALWAYS RESISTS" the Holy Ghost.

 

[The Biblicist]

Let him emphasize 2 Cor 5:11 again! "WE PERSUADE MEN". Does Paul PERSUADING someone to believe sound like irresistible grace or an appeal to the will to believe! He done stole one of my favorite texts and tried to use on us Non Cals.

Another aspect of the Biblical position that you do not understand is that God's absolute sovereignty does not contradict human responsibility as God has elected the means of salvation as much as He has chosen the persons and the time of salvation. "When it PLEASED GOD" we experienced our first human birth into this world and "WHEN it PLEASED GOD" we experienced our new birth (Gal. 1:15-16) but all though God's appointed means. Some sow, some plant but God gives the increase in his time and in His way.

We are to persuade men with all the persuasive power we have but still that is not sufficient to save anyone. It is the Holy Spirit IN ADDITION or IN SPITE OF us that must accompany the Gospel so that it does not come "in word only" but "in power and in the Holy Ghost and in much assurance" (1 Thes. 1:5).

 

[Inspector Javert]

God has elected the means of salvation as much as He has chosen the persons and the time of salvation. "When it PLEASED GOD" we experienced our first human birth into this world and "WHEN it PLEASED GOD" we experienced our new birth (Gal. 1:15-16)

Gal 1:15-16 is talking about God's calling of Paul to be the Apostle to the Gentiles....not unto salvation or the "New Birth". What it "pleased God" to do for Paul in Gal 1:15-16, is something that will never happen to either you or me.
Gal 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen;
Paul is talking about his Apostleship:
Gal 1:17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me;

 

[saturneptune]

FLASH.................GEICO stock drops 15%...............How happy are their share holders?................................Happy as DrAch at a Calvinistic Ressurection

 

[Iconoclast]

__________________


Oh this is about as funny as Icon getting tricked into attacking his own "scholars". Icon just quoted himself, and told himself that he can't grasp God converting someone. :laugh:

Icon, whichever one of you made the last comment, tell him I agree!

ACH,

As usual the joke is on you,as i was speaking to Winman, but evidently you are in the same boat as he is.If you cannot follow the thread try the joke room. Your posts might be welcome there for comedic relief:thumbs::thumbs::wavey:

 

[The Biblicist]

Gal 1:15-16 is talking about God's calling of Paul to be the Apostle to the Gentiles....not unto salvation or the "New Birth". What it "pleased God" to do for Paul in Gal 1:15-16, is something that will never happen to either you or me.
Gal 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen;
Paul is talking about his Apostleship:
Gal 1:17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me;

Read it again! What pleased God was to "REVEAL HIS SON IN ME" as the prequisite to His calling to preach, not vice versa. That revelation is what is compared to removing him from his mother's womb or the second birth is compared to the first birth

Separation from his mother's womb was God's doing just as revealing Christ in him was God's doing. The life after birth was consequential! Consequential as the life after second birth and his calling to the ministry.