Some questions for anti-calvinists #3

Thanks for getting back to me Dr. Cassidy! Isn't it interesting? We both seem to speak English (although this is my second language) and we come to a different conclusion of what has been written. I think here is the fundamental difference between Calvin's teaching and the rest of the world. As I understand it, Jesus indeed gave His life for the world, but His sacrifice was conditional (like some of the O/T covenants). God did His part, and you have to do yours. His part was to give His life, yours is to believe in the complete work of Christ. The key word is to believe, and this is exactly what John 3:16 is all about. The second key word, "whosoever," which means, all who believe in Jesus Christ. The Christian assurance of salvation is defined in John 5:24 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life!" There is no limited atonement there. I have already stated that the atonement is only limited by whosoever believeth in Him. And no, Dr. Cassidy, those who do not believe, they will not go to heaven, OK?

I think we have touched upon this already above. It is self explanatory. Love could not reject the atonement, for "God so loved the world...."

I think the above sentence is looking through the looking glass of Calvin. The essence of the sentence similar but not the same as it is described in Hebrews 11:6 "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." So, you see, it boils down to faith and belief in Him who gave His life as a one-time sin offering for all, but only those will be saved to whom it was imputed this atonement because of their belief in Him. Are we in agreement on that, or we are still miles apart?

 

That is where you are wrong! Atonement does not save one. There is no salvation in atonement! AND, there is no salvation without Atonement!

Salvation is a FREE gift of God to those who have faith in God. Sin brought a penalty of Death to the sinner. Jesus bore that penalty ONCE, for ALL! Therefore, NO MAN FACES DEATH FOR SIN, because JESUS TOOK THE PENALTY IN OUR STEAD!

NOW we can truly have Everlasting life because the DEATH penalty has been removed from us! Whosoever believeth in HIM should not perish but have everlasting life. With the death penalty removed, why do people continue to be cast into the Lake of Fire, the second death?.....Because they lack faith in God, not because of sin that has been already been dealt with by God! Their names are not found in the book of life because they don't believe!

 

I stand corrected. Thanks for pointing that out to me.

Thank you Dr. Cassidy! I am glad we agree on certain things. We are not that far apart anymore. You are right, repentance comes after hearing of the Word of God and then belief.

Again there is an agreement. Boy we are on a roll now! I only played with the word "limited" to show that there is no limitation to atonement, because the Bible says, "whosoever." Therefore the limit is only go as far as "whosoever believeth in Him" which could be indeed the whole world.

Well, now, there is a seeming controversy here. But not according to the Word of God. Romans 5:6 says, "For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly." And it continues in verses 7 & 8: "For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." Christ indeed died for the sins of the world, and I do not think that double jeopardy plays a role in here. Let me give you an example from the Bible. When a slave was set to be free, but he already married one of the servants of his owner, had established a family, and if he wanted to stay together with his wife and children, there was a provision in the Mosaic law to allow him to remain. He could lose his freedom and never to be released again. The provision was that his owner brought him to the doorpost and bore a hole in his ear against the doorpost for a brand that he remains a slave. The man was given the choice of going free, but he did not accept that offer. So is with sinful men. They are offered the free gift of God for salvation but many will reject because they love their sin more than eternal life. They reject the free gift of God in Jesus. I believe the difference of what I am trying to communicate v.s. the other view is that while one maintains that there is no free will the other maintains that there is.

I stand corrected again! In my haste I lost my reign of thought and not checking my statement I proved once again that "haste makes waste." Indeed the word "atonement" is being found all over the O/T but not in the N/T. I have only found it once. That reminds me, I had an old Jewish Christian friend. Knew him for over 30 years. His name was Rev. Arnold Ray. He went to be with the Lord four years ago. We had some really meaningful discussions with him. One time he told me that the word "atonement" means to separate, and he gave the example from Exodus 2:3, where the mother of Moses waterproofed the little ark in which Moses was placed. Moses in effect was separated from the waters of the Nile River, and so are our sins, they are separated from us by the precious blood of Jesus!

I thought I did. Well, there goes my communications skill. Truthfully, I had a very busy day, I am tired and bushed. But I enjoyed this exchange with you, and thank you for your insight. Now, while it is still early in the West coast, here in the Big Apple it is after 9:00 PM. So, with your kind permission I will call it a day. Have a good night!

 

Dr. Tom, may I address one question you posed to Barnabas before I iron hubby's work clothes and head to bed?

You said: I don't disagree, but it still does not addresses the question. If Christ paid for the sin debt of every single person who ever lived, without exception, then they no longer own a sin debt and the "wages of sin" (Romans 6:23 cf Revelation 20:14) no longer applies to them.

My answer: Christ died for the sins of all mankind, without exception. Their 'sin free' status depends on their acceptance of that 'free gift' of salvation paid for on the cross. If I come to your home and bring a beautifully wrapped gift and leave it on your table you have to accept that gift, pick it up, open it and it becomes yours. If you leave that gift forever unopened, that is your decision because of your free will. The decision is ours.

Each person 'owns' their sin debt until they yield to the wooing of the Holy Spirit and surrender their will to God, accepting the blood sacrifice of Jesus for their sins.

I'm no theologian and certainly can't use fancy words but I hope I answered in a way that makes sense.

The gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus His Son.

Gift: Something that is bestowed voluntarily and without compensation.

 

There's the big problem. My 'sin free' status does not depend on me or anything that I have ever done or will ever do. My 'sin free' status depends completely on Christ, who died for my sins and rose again for my justification. Are you relying on Christ's work or on your belief?

 

There's the big problem. My 'sin free' status does not depend on me or anything that I have ever done or will ever do. My 'sin free' status depends completely on Christ, who died for my sins and rose again for my justification. Are you relying on Christ's work or on your belief? </font>[/QUOTE]Then why do the scriptures from Genesis to Revelation emphasize that man is to repent from sinning!

You say your sin free status depends completely on Christ. We should test that with the Christ's own words? You provide the scriptures where the Christ declares that you are sin free because of what he does, and I'll provide scripture,from both before atonement and after, where the Christ demands that we repent from our sinning....that is, every one but Whetstone!

 

I never said that we don't have to repent. Keep reading.

 

Bro. Halo,

There are a couple of things that I am curious about. How is it that you are able to interpret Scripture without interference from your own personal preferences when no one else can (except maybe those who agree with you)? And why is it OK for you to try to influence us with your interpretation of the atonement, but it's not OK for Calvinists or Arminians to do so?

 

There's the big problem. My 'sin free' status does not depend on me or anything that I have ever done or will ever do. My 'sin free' status depends completely on Christ, who died for my sins and rose again for my justification. Are you relying on Christ's work or on your belief? </font>[/QUOTE]This is your post is it not?

Then you did in truth say,

 

Christ died for my sins and it is HIS sacrifice which pays my sin debt but I must accept the gift of salvation which is offered and intended for all men.

 

Cassidy

Yes He did die for there sins as well however the atonement is conditioned on our belief. If we don't believe it isn't applied.
The atonement was an enablement.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
"Might be saved" doesn't mean they will be but that they can be, base on the condition of there belief.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
Mike

 

Yes He did die for there sins as well however the atonement is conditioned on our belief. If we don't believe it isn't applied.
The atonement was an enablement.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
"Might be saved" doesn't mean they will be but that they can be, base on the condition of there belief.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
Mike </font>[/QUOTE]The Atonement does not depend on our belief. It is a finished work of God, a done deal, nothing more to it! There is nothing new under the sun that requires further atoning work!

Our salvation depends on our belief in the one who did the atoning for us.

 

Post deleted for violating the rule regarding posting under someone else's account. You may sign up for an account if you wish to post. Additionally, if you wish to talk about history, post it in a history forum. This is a theology forum.

[ April 12, 2005, 04:33 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

Those who refuse the blood sacrifice of the perfect lamb must pay for their own sins in hell.

 

Cannot agree with this Diane, Atonement is a finished work of God!

Our acceptance of it is not necessary. It was finished so that by us believing in the Christ, we can have everlasting life.

Look at it this way. When you drive along a well built freeway, you do not think of all the labor and sweat that it took to finish the construction. You only think about the fact that it exists, and you are taking advantage of it!

For the Atonement, it is our Faith in the one who finished the work, that gives us everlasting life. Yes, it was HIS blood that made it possible for us to have that life, but it is our faith in Him that makes it the reality for us. Those who do not have faith in the Christ cannot have everlasting life!