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Yelsew
Guest
I most certainly will.
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Some reasons I'm a Calvinist: The Chain of Salvation (Rom. 8:30)
- Thread starter Monergist
- Start date
Y
Yelsew
Guest
I am referring to your bad theology.
Y
Yelsew
Guest
I am not referring to condemnation as in damnation. I am simply saying that your words in saying that "It takes two" show the problem that your theology has when it is compared to the Bible.
Oh, yeah. The Bible never teaches that. Here's one place, for example, where it never teaches that.
Ephesians 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. </font>[/QUOTE]
Talk about not understanding a simple post.
I didn't say that God doesn't save people by grace.
I said God doesn't save EVERYONE by grace. Yes, everyone who is saved is saved by grace.
I was addressing our resident universalist, Ken. Silly Nick.
Your right the greek is ambiguous which is why we should go to other writing of Paul to understand what he was refering to.
Look at Romans 3:26-31.
Rom. 3:26 He presented Him to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be righteous and declare righteous the one who has faith in Jesus. 27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By one of works? No, on the contrary, by a law of faith.
Notice: FAITH EXCLUDES WORKS THUS IT EXCLUDES BOASTING
Have you noticed that throughout scripture Grace is refered to in God's possession: i.e. God's grace
And faith is refered to in Man's possession: i.e. his faith
Are you really going to take one ambiguous text and conclude that God gives some people faith and not others. That is a stretch.
Once again you are equating faith with a work, scripture doesn't do that.
NOTICE:
You cannot be saved through works.
You can be saved through faith.
There is a difference. This one of the main changes from the Old to the New Covenant in the minds of the Israelites. The means to righteousness changed from the works of the law to faith. To equate the two is to ignore a major premise of the NT.
4 But God, who is abundant in mercy, because of His great love that He had for us, 5 made us alive with the Messiah even though we were dead in trespasses.
Where does this passage say that He makes us alive before we have faith?
Check this out:
Col. 2:12 Having been buried with Him in baptism, you were also raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. And when you were dead in trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive with Him and forgave us all our trespasses.
We were raised or "made alive" through faith, it does not teach as you assert that we have faith through being made alive.
Where does this passage say that He makes us alive before we have faith?
Check this out:
Col. 2:12 Having been buried with Him in baptism, you were also raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. And when you were dead in trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive with Him and forgave us all our trespasses.
We were raised or "made alive" through faith, it does not teach as you assert that we have faith through being made alive.
KenH
Well-Known Member
Being raised here is talking about the subject of baptism. We are raised up out of the waters of baptism. We are to be baptized after we are saved and after we have faith. If we did not believe, there would be no point in being baptized.
[ April 04, 2003, 11:54 PM: Message edited by: Ken H ]
[ April 04, 2003, 11:54 PM: Message edited by: Ken H ]
Every part of our salvation is a gift of God. Interesting vs. 11-12 is comparing baptism to circumcism. Through faith that we see ourselves buried and risen with Christ, to which the ordinance of baptism represents is Paul's meaning. We of course are saved by faith in the working of God who raised us from the dead. Neither Calvinist nor Arminian denies that.
The Arminian thinks however when he finds a Scripture such as Gal. 3:2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? or the one mentioned above AH! HA! Faith comes before regeneration. Of course the context in Galatians is did they receive the Spirit by the works of the Law or was it by the hearing of faith (Rom. 10:14), that is, the preaching of the doctrine of faith in Christ alone as the only way of justification. Colossians says we were saved by faith in the working of God, something no Christian denies.
Luther likes the irony Paul uses in Galatians,
The Bible teaches that the Word and the Spirit work together in conversion.
Acts 10:44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message.
Acts 11:15"As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning.
The Bible is clear the Holy Spirit gives us life and that at the same time we receive the Spirit by Faith because of His renewal of us.
Oh, you think this statement destroys 90% of my argument?
Your first sentence, "The Bible says we were made alive by God while we were dead in trepasses and uncircumcision of heart." is just a restatement of the text in which we both agree. We were dead in our sins and uncircumcision of our hearts. But the question is, "By what means are were made alive?" Or, "does faith come before we are made alive?"
Lets see if you second sentence covers that question: "One who is uncircumcised in heart cannot believe. "
No, you just make an original statement with no scriptural support. You haven't shown whether faith is the means by which the heart becomes circumcised or if the heart being circumcised is the means to our having faith. You have ignored the question by restating the same problem but instead of term "made alive" you have used the term "circumcised heart". I believe faith is the means by which these two things are accomplished because the scripture says, "we were raised with Christ through faith."
You argue that is in reference to Baptism which makes me laugh. Are you seriously arguing that we are baptized through faith? Are you saying that without faith we couldn't get dunked in water by our preacher? Do you really think that is what Paul is refering to in this text. Is this an orginial defense of this passage that you just came up with or can you point me to a scholar who actually published this defense?
BTW, you do know that the Bible does teach that we are saved through faith, don't you? Don't you think being "made alive" and " having our hearts circumcised" has something to do with being saved?
KenH
Well-Known Member
Uh, Brother Bill, please look at the passage again.
Col. 2:12 Having been buried with Him in baptism, you were also raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. And when you were dead in trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive with Him and forgave us all our trespasses
Got it now? Being buried and raised refers to the baptism. Being both buried and raised is done in faith in God's work.