Some reasons I'm a Calvinist: The Chain of Salvation (Rom. 8:30)

[William C]

Originally posted by Ken H:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Brother Bill:
You argue that is in reference to Baptism which makes me laugh. Are you seriously arguing that we are baptized through faith?

Uh, Brother Bill, please look at the passage again.

Col. 2:12 Having been buried with Him in baptism, you were also raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. And when you were dead in trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive with Him and forgave us all our trespasses

Got it now? Being buried and raised refers to the baptism. Being both buried and raised is done in faith in God's work. </font>[/QUOTE]Ken, I am well aware that the word "baptism" is there but most scholars understand this to be a reference to the baptism of the Spirit and not the symbolic ordinance of being dunked in water. The ordainance is a symbol of the actual event. The actual event of being raised is done through faith.

To say that the symbolic ordinance of Baptism is accomplished through faith while the actual event of being raised is not is the most absurd thing I have ever heard.

What made me laugh is thinking that you believe being dunked in water is done through faith, but being raised with Christ is not. That is funny.

 

[Frogman]

majority rules Bill?

The baptism of the Spirit was an historical event that happened to the church assembled on the day of Pentecost. Believers have an indwelling, this means an entrance of the Spirit, not a baptism

Bro. Dallas

 

[William C]

Dallas, are you arguing that the word "baptism" in this passage is in reference to the ordainance of being dunked in water?

 

[tyndale1946]

Matthew 3:[11] I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

[12] Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

[13] Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him... Brother Glen The Primitive Baptist

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Brother Bill:
1)but most scholars understand this to be a reference to the baptism of the Spirit and not the symbolic ordinance of being dunked in water.

2)What made me laugh is thinking that you believe being dunked in water is done through faith, but being raised with Christ is not.

1) Most is not all. I believe it to be referring to water immersion. We will simply have to agree to disagree on what we each believe it to be referring to. It is not necessary to spiritualize baptism in the verse to avoid the error of baptismal regeneration that the Church of Christ denomination teaches.

2) Then you thunk wrongly. The whole action of being buried in the watery grave of baptism and being raised up from it are done based on faith that God has cleansed the baptismal candidate of his sins.

 

[William C]

Originally posted by Ken H:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Brother Bill:
1)but most scholars understand this to be a reference to the baptism of the Spirit and not the symbolic ordinance of being dunked in water.

2)What made me laugh is thinking that you believe being dunked in water is done through faith, but being raised with Christ is not.

1) Most is not all. I believe it to be referring to water immersion. We will simply have to agree to disagree on what we each believe it to be referring to. It is not necessary to spiritualize baptism in the verse to avoid the error of baptismal regeneration that the Church of Christ denomination teaches.

2) Then you thunk wrongly. The whole action of being buried in the watery grave of baptism and being raised up from it are done based on faith that God has cleansed the baptismal candidate of his sins. </font>[/QUOTE]I did say "most" but I can't find any. Can you?

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Brother Bill:
I can't find any. Can you?

From the 1599 Geneva Study Bible:

2:12 10 q Buried with r him in baptism, 11 wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of s God, who hath raised him from the dead.


(10) The taking away of an objection: we do not need an external sign to the extent which our fathers had, seeing that our baptism is a most effectual pledge and witness, of that inward restoring and renewing.
(q) See (Romans 6:4).
(r) So then all the force of the matter comes not from the very deed done, that is to say, it is not the dipping of us into the water by a minister that makes us to be buried with Christ, as the papists say, that even by the very act’s sake we become very Christians, but it comes from the power of Christ, for the apostle adds the resurrection of Christ, and faith.
(11) One purpose of baptism is to symbolise the death and burial of the old man, and that by the mighty power of God alone, whose power we lay hold on by faith, in the death and resurrection of Christ.
(s) Through faith which comes from God.

From John Gill's exposition of the Bible:

Colossians 2:12

Buried with him in baptism…
The apostle goes on to observe how complete and perfect the saints are in Christ; that they are not only circumcised in him in a spiritual sense, and the body of the sins of their flesh is put off, and removed from them, in allusion to the cutting off and casting away of the foreskin in circumcision; but that they and all their sins were buried with Christ, of which their baptism in water was a lively representation: Christ having died for their sins, was laid in the grave, where he continued for a while, and then rose again; and as they were crucified with him, they were also buried with him, as their head and representative; and all their sins too, which he left behind him in the grave, signified by his grave clothes there; and baptism being performed by immersion, when the person baptized is covered with water, and as it were buried in it, is a very significant emblem of all this; it is a representation of the burial of Christ, and very fitly holds him forth to the view of faith in the state of the dead, in the grave, and points out the place where the Lord lay; and it is also a representation of our burial with him, as being dead to sin, to the law, and to the world, by him. This shows now, that baptism was performed by dipping, or covering the whole body in water, for no other form of administration of baptism, as sprinkling, or pouring water on the face, can represent a burial, or be called one; and this is what many learned interpreters own, and observe on this place:

From Matthew Henry's commentary:

(v. 12): Buried with him in baptism, wherein also you have risen with him. We are both buried and rise with him, and both are signified by our baptism; not that there is anything in the sign or ceremony of baptism which represents this burying and rising, any more than the crucifixion of Christ is represented by any visible resemblance in the Lord’s supper: and he is speaking of the circumcision made without hands; and says it is through the faith of the operation of God. But the thing signified by our baptism is that we are buried with Christ, as baptism is the seal of the covenant and an obligation to our dying to sin; and that we are raised with Christ, as it is a seal and obligation to our living to righteousness, or newness of life. God in baptism engages to be to us a God, and we become engaged to be his people, and by his grace to die to sin and to live to righteousness, or put off the old man and put on the new.

From Jamieson-Fausset-Brown's commentary:

12. Translate, "Having been buried with Him in your baptism." The past participle is here coincident in time with the preceding verb, "ye were (Greek) circumcised." Baptism is regarded as the burial of the old carnal life, to which the act of immersion symbolically corresponds;

Are these sufficient for you, Brother Bill?

 

[William C]

Thanks Ken

But did you notice that they were using words like symbolic and resemble.

None of them seem provide your interpretation that the real being raised is not done through faith but only the symbolic sign is done in faith. Maybe I missed it can you point to that. Thanks.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Brother Bill:
Maybe I missed it can you point to that.

I don't think I can. Either I don't understand what you are driving at or else you've done got way too technical for me.

Besides, since I understand this verse to be referring to water immersion and you do not, I don't think using it will further our discussion on regeneration.

[ April 05, 2003, 11:11 PM: Message edited by: Ken H ]