Some Standing Here

[Iconoclast]

DHK

.

When it says a thousand years it means a thousand years. You can't take it to mean anything else.

[/QUOTE]

I am okay if it is a literal thousand year kingdom in the future. I do not think you can say a thousand can only mean a thousand. Numbers are used in different ways in scripture.

However.....why do you think Paul speaks of Isa. 11 being "confirmed" in Romans 15...with the gentiles coming into the Kingdom???

8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.

10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.

11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people.

12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

also:in rev 14-
And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

DHK...do you realize that if all the horses were brought into the land ....there would not be enough blood to fulfill literally the blood being up to the bridles....it is not possible, there are not enough horses.

 

[DHK]

DHK
However.....why do you think Paul speaks of Isa. 11 being "confirmed" in Romans 15...with the gentiles coming into the Kingdom???

Do you know what the original Hebrew MSS looked like. In the Book of Isaiah, there was only one chapter; perhaps only one verse for that matter. There were no chapter divisions; not even paragraph or verse divisions. There wasn't even any vowel pointing until the Masoretic scribes came along and put in the vowel pointing making it easier for modern day students to learn Hebrew.

Chapter 11 might as well be a very long chapter nine. How would you know? You don't. You rely on someone else. And what you are doing here is just copying what someone else has already said without doing much study for yourself, or so it seems. But if what you say is true, then you should be able to show me, where these verses and their fulfillment is mentioned in Romans chapter 15 as you so dogmatically affirm:

Isaiah 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

I have done a thorough study of the book of Romans, and I don't ever remember reading that in Romans. So could you please direct me to where it was added to the fifteenth chapter?

also:in rev 14-
And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

DHK...do you realize that if all the horses were brought into the land ....there would not be enough blood to fulfill literally the blood being up to the bridles....it is not possible, there are not enough horses.

It is not talking about the blood of horses. I think you need to go and read chapter nineteen of Revelation.

 

[thomas15]

I get it. If I don't literalize passages in your way I am "not trusting the Word of God".

Call it my way if it makes you happy but it is the simple plain meaning of the words of the Holy Bible.

 

[OldRegular]

The tribes are still the same--representative of all of Israel.
They are all named in Revelation chapter seven.
Do some study about the names and places of the other nations in the time of Isaiah. Where were they located? There is a good chance that they refer to the same localities today as they did then, but now with different names.

Actually they are not all named in Revelation 7.

Revelation 7:4-8, KJV
4. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: [and there were] sealed an hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5. Of the tribe of Juda [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad [were] sealed twelve thousand.
6. Of the tribe of Aser [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses [were] sealed twelve thousand.
7. Of the tribe of Simeon [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar [were] sealed twelve thousand.
8. Of the tribe of Zabulon [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin [were] sealed twelve thousand.

These sealed are described as coming from all the tribes of the children of Israel. Notice, however, that not all the tribes are included. The tribe of Dan is missing. The tribe of Joseph is included as is the half tribe of Manasseh. Since the tribe of Joseph, the father of Ephraim and Manasseh, is included why is the half tribe of Manasseh included? Expositors who want to interpret this passage literally have attempted to explain the absence of Dan, the inclusion of both Manasseh and Joseph, and the absence of Ephraim in various ways. However any attempt to interpret this passage literally creates problems. The salient fact is that the twelve tribes of Israel are not all listed. One purpose of apocalyptic literature is to conceal and yet to reveal. Therefore the simple solution to the apparent problem is that the passage is written to be interpreted symbolically.

The Bible is just as relevant today as it was then. Don't dismiss it so lightly.
When it says a thousand years it means a thousand years. You can't take it to mean anything else. There are two resurrections, separated by a thousand years. I would hate to be the one that is in that second resurrection.

I would never take anything the Bible says lightly because I believe it to be the inerrant word of God. I also believe there are two resurrections. If we are to understand what is taught is the initial chapters of Revelation [Verses 1-10] we must understand that these verses present a very brief recapitulation of the events between the resurrection/ascension of Jesus Christ and His return in Power and Great Glory.

In this passage we see the binding of Satan so that he can no longer deceive the nations. The only power Satan has ever been able to exercise is under limitations imposed by God. This is particularly true when the people of God are involved [Job 1:6-12]. The binding of Satan indicated in Revelation 20:1, 2 is simply a further restriction of the ability of Satan to deceive people and prevent the spread of the Gospel throughout the world.

However, I must disagree when you say there are two resurrections separated by one thousand literal years. Consider the following Scripture:

Revelation 20:4-6.
4. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.
6. Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

We read about a first resurrection which implies a second resurrection. The First Resurrection and the only resurrection to date is that of Jesus Christ. Scripture tells us: Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: So the question of utmost importance is: Who are those who have part in the First Resurrection, the Resurrection of Jesus Christ? Those who have part in the first resurrection are the elect of God, those who have been redeemed, rescued from spiritual death through the power of the Holy Spirit and the finished work of Jesus Christ.

The Apostle John records the teaching of Jesus Christ regarding those who have part in the first resurrection as follows :

John 5:24-26
24. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

John 11:25,
25. Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

In these passages the Lord is, in effect, teaching the "new birth", the spiritual resurrection, of the believer. The soul that undergoes this "new birth" can never die, will never experience the "second death".

The second resurrection is that of thje bodies of all those in the graves as promised in John 5:28, 29. The one thousand years of Revelation 20 is not to be taken literally but represents the time between the resurrection of Jesus Christ and the resurrection promised in John 5:28, 29.

The Book of Revelation is a Book that contains much symbolism and much of it is written in apocalyptic language. Yet there are some who insist that a strict literal interpretation must be applied. Yet these same people wish to apply other than a literal interpretation to the passage John 5:28, 29, insisting that there are two different resurrections separated by 1000 years. That is simply an untenable position. The passage is clearly intended to be interpreted literally or as Ryrie would say, "taken at face value" although he among other dispensationalists does not do so.

John F. MacArthur in his book Charismatic Chaos [page 94] writes on the interpretation of Scripture by Scripture as follows [emphasis mine.]:

The Reformers used the expression "scriptura scripturam interpretatur", or ‘Scripture interprets Scripture.’ By this they meant that obscure passages in Scripture must be understood in light of clearer ones. If the Bible is God's Word, it must be consistent with itself. No part of the Bible can contradict any other part. One divine Author, the Holy Spirit, inspired the whole Bible, so it has one marvelous, supernatural unity. The synthesis principle puts Scripture together with Scripture to arrive at a clear, consistent meaning. If we hold to an interpretation of one passage that does not square with something in another passage, one of the passages is being interpreted incorrectly, or possibly both of them. The Holy Spirit does not disagree with himself. And the passages with obvious meanings should interpret the more arcane [obscure] ones. One should never build a doctrine on a single obscure or unclear text.

John MacArthur, a dispensationalist, fails to follow his own advice because he gives an obscure passage in Revelation 20 precedence over a very clear passage from the Gospel of John, a passage which refutes dispensational doctrine.

 

[OldRegular]

I get it. If I don't literalize passages in your way I am "not trusting the Word of God". I could just as easily say that you are not trusting the Word of God when He says "soon" and "this generation".

Tom

You and I are going to disagree about the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. I sincerely hope we will not get to the point where we accuse each other of not trusting the Word of God.

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

Chapter 11 might as well be a very long chapter nine. How would you know? You don't. You rely on someone else. And what you are doing here is just copying what someone else has already said without doing much study for yourself, or so it seems.

Actually DHK you are not the only person who has studied Romans.Why would you make this claim? or so it seems

But if what you say is true, then you should be able to show me, where these verses and their fulfillment is mentioned in Romans chapter 15 as you so dogmatically affirm:

Isaiah 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

I have done a thorough study of the book of Romans, and I don't ever remember reading that in Romans. So could you please direct me to where it was added to the fifteenth chapter?

I would start at that which you ignore;

Well as you have done a thorough study of Romans you should have seen some things for yourself.If you removed the dispensational spectacles while studying you might have seen what is there to consider:thumbs::wavey:

25 As He says also in Hosea:

“I will call them My people, who were not My people,
And her beloved, who was not beloved.”[h]
26 “And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,
‘You are not My people,’
There they shall be called sons of the living God.”

27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel:[j]

“Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea,
The remnant will be saved.
28 For He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness,
Because the Lord will make a short work upon the earth.”[k]

29 And as Isaiah said before:

“Unless the Lord of Sabaoth[l] had left us a seed,
We would have become like Sodom,
And we would have been made like Gomorrah.”[m]


For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:

“Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense,
And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”[p]
Romans 9:3 Or relatives
Romans 9:7 Genesis 21:12
Romans 9:9 Genesis 18:10, 14
Romans 9:12 Genesis 25:23
Romans 9:13 Malachi 1:2, 3
Romans 9:15 Exodus 33:19
Romans 9:17 Exodus 9:16
Romans 9:25 Hosea 2:23
Romans 9:26 Hosea 1:10
Romans 9:27 Isaiah 10:22, 23
Romans 9:28 NU-Text reads For the Lord will finish the work and cut it short upon the earth.
Romans 9:29 Literally, in Hebrew, Hosts
Romans 9:29 Isaiah 1:9
Romans 9:31 NU-Text omits of righteousness.
Romans 9:32 NU-Text reads by works.
Romans 9:33 Isaiah 8:14; 28:16
And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:

“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,[h]
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”
18 But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed:

“Their sound has gone out to all the earth,
And their words to the ends of the world.”[k]

19 But I say, did Israel not know? First Moses says:

“I will provoke you to jealousy by those who are not a nation,
I will move you to anger by a foolish nation.”[l]

20 But Isaiah is very bold and says:

“I was found by those who did not seek Me;
I was made manifest to those who did not ask for Me.”[m]

21 But to Israel he says:

“All day long I have stretched out My hands
To a disobedient and contrary people.”[n

Romans 10:1 NU-Text reads them.
Romans 10:5 Leviticus 18:5
Romans 10:6 Deuteronomy 30:12
Romans 10:7 Deuteronomy 30:13
Romans 10:8 Deuteronomy 30:14
Romans 10:11 Isaiah 28:16
Romans 10:13 Joel 2:32
Romans 10:15 NU-Text omits preach the gospel of peace, Who.
Romans 10:15 Isaiah 52:7; Nahum 1:15
Romans 10:16 Isaiah 53:1
Romans 10:18 Psalm 19:4
Romans 10:19 Deuteronomy 32:21
Romans 10:20 Isaiah 65:1
Romans 10:21 Isaiah 65:2
What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:

“God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”[d]

9 And David says:

“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
A stumbling block and a recompense to them.
10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see,
And bow down their back always.”[e]
26 And so all Israel will be saved,[g] as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”[h]

4 “For who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has become His counselor?”
35 “Or who has first given to Him
And it shall be repaid to him?”[j]
Romans 11:3 1 Kings 19:10, 14
Romans 11:4 1 Kings 19:18
Romans 11:6 NU-Text omits the rest of this verse.
Romans 11:8 Deuteronomy 29:4; Isaiah 29:10
Romans 11:10 Psalm 69:22, 23
Romans 11:22 NU-Text adds of God.
Romans 11:26 Or delivered
Romans 11:27 Isaiah 59:20, 21
Romans 11:34 Isaiah 40:13; Jeremiah 23:18
Romans 11:35 Job 41:11
9 Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,”[a] says the Lord. 20 Therefore

“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
If he is thirsty, give him a drink;
For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head.”
Romans 12:19 Deuteronomy 32:35
Romans 12:20 Proverbs 25:21, 22
Romans 13:9 NU-Text omits “You shall not bear false witness.”
Romans 13:9 Exodus 20:13–15, 17; Deuteronomy 5:17–19, 21
Romans 13:9 Leviticus 19:18
11 For it is written:

“As I live, says the Lord,
Every knee shall bow to Me,
And every tongue shall confess to God.”[d]
Romans 14:11 Isaiah 45:23
“For this reason I will confess to You among the Gentiles,
And sing to Your name.”[c]

10 And again he says:

“Rejoice, O Gentiles, with His people!”[d]

11 And again:

“Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles!
Laud Him, all you peoples!”[e]

12 And again, Isaiah says:

“There shall be a root of Jesse;
And He who shall rise to reign over the Gentiles,
In Him the Gentiles shall hope.”[f]
Romans 15:3 Psalm 69:9
Romans 15:7 NU-Text and M-Text read you.
Romans 15:9 2 Samuel 22:50; Psalm 18:49
Romans 15:10 Deuteronomy 32:43
Romans 15:11 Psalm 117:1
Romans 15:12 Isaiah 11:10
Romans 15:14 M-Text reads others.
Romans 15:21 Isaiah 52:15


DHK......15x Paul by the Spirit quotes from Isa saying these things are a confirmation of the promises made to the Fathers...linking jew and gentile to the same covenant promises...your theology has no real place for this,does it? No mystery, no double fulfillment here.

8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.

10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.

11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people.

12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

It is not talking about the blood of horses. I think you need to go and read chapter nineteen of Revelation.

DHK......if you took all the blood of the horses and the riders it would not stack up to 5-6 ft tall throughout the land:thumbs:

 

[asterisktom]

Tom

You and I are going to disagree about the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. I sincerely hope we will not get to the point where we accuse each other of not trusting the Word of God.

OR, I doubt that will happen. You are usually quite careful with what you write. I also know you to be a person who values the Word highly.

My comments were directed to Thomas15. They were not an accusation of him. They were a clearing of an accusation he had made upon me.

 

[John of Japan]

Oh quit your chest-thumping. I answered this very question before, many times here on BB.

I am now in Shanghai and going down the coast. Internet will be slow (as here) or non-existent. Try to be cordial and imagine that my seeming silence is not from being bested or stymied, but merely unable to respond - again.

Can you do that for me John?

Okay, Tom, I did a search, and your memory appears to be a little faulty. There is only one time you have dealt with the meaning of parousia (though you have mentioned the word many times) here on the BB, and that is in the "Cessationist" thread of two years ago, here: http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1641526&highlight=parousia#post1641526

Even then no one discussed it with you. I think this subject is worth a separate thread, so don't bother answering my posts here. I'll start a thread later this evening, and you can participate or not, as you see fit.

 

[asterisktom]

Okay, Tom, I did a search, and your memory appears to be a little faulty. There is only one time you have dealt with the meaning of parousia (though you have mentioned the word many times) here on the BB, and that is in the "Cessationist" thread of two years ago, here: http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1641526&highlight=parousia#post1641526

Even then no one discussed it with you. I think this subject is worth a separate thread, so don't bother answering my posts here. I'll start a thread later this evening, and you can participate or not, as you see fit.

Certainly a good topic. I still think I had written n this here, but I will take your word for it. Perhaps it was i none of two other boards I was involved in at the time.

As I can I hope to be able to add more to something your thread.

 

[DHK]

Actually they are not all named in Revelation 7.

These sealed are described as coming from all the tribes of the children of Israel. Notice, however, that not all the tribes are included. The tribe of Dan is missing. The tribe of Joseph is included as is the half tribe of Manasseh. Since the tribe of Joseph, the father of Ephraim and Manasseh, is included why is the half tribe of Manasseh included? Expositors who want to interpret this passage literally have attempted to explain the absence of Dan, the inclusion of both Manasseh and Joseph, and the absence of Ephraim in various ways. However any attempt to interpret this passage literally creates problems. The salient fact is that the twelve tribes of Israel are not all listed. One purpose of apocalyptic literature is to conceal and yet to reveal. Therefore the simple solution to the apparent problem is that the passage is written to be interpreted symbolically.

No, that is a cop-out. It is like saying: "I can't see the answer so I will relegate the passage into the trash can of symbolism. That is what Origen did. There was no allegorical interpretation of the Bible before Origen. The twelve tribes are mentioned there. Joseph was promised a double blessing. Dan was cursed because that is where much of the idolatry originated from. That is where the high places were, and that is where they went to worship idols. It was God's judgment upon them. If you want more specific answers you can ask the Lord when you get to heaven. However I would not question God's Word when He himself says:

Revelation 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
--144,000; 12,000 from 12 tribes which equal 144,000, and then proceeds to list them. Why would I question God?

I would never take anything the Bible says lightly because I believe it to be the inerrant word of God. I also believe there are two resurrections. If we are to understand what is taught is the initial chapters of Revelation [Verses 1-10] we must understand that these verses present a very brief recapitulation of the events between the resurrection/ascension of Jesus Christ and His return in Power and Great Glory.

In this passage we see the binding of Satan so that he can no longer deceive the nations. The only power Satan has ever been able to exercise is under limitations imposed by God. This is particularly true when the people of God are involved [Job 1:6-12]. The binding of Satan indicated in Revelation 20:1, 2 is simply a further restriction of the ability of Satan to deceive people and prevent the spread of the Gospel throughout the world.

This is not true of today, and in your heart I think you know it.
What just happened at Sandy Hook, CT.? Was that a Spirit filled gunman or is Satan alive and well. Was Satan bound when that gunman went on his rampage killing all those first graders? Yep, God's angel wasn't he, because Satan was bound?

However, I must disagree when you say there are two resurrections separated by one thousand literal years. Consider the following Scripture:

We read about a first resurrection which implies a second resurrection. The First Resurrection and the only resurrection to date is that of Jesus Christ. Scripture tells us: Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: So the question of utmost importance is: Who are those who have part in the First Resurrection, the Resurrection of Jesus Christ? Those who have part in the first resurrection are the elect of God, those who have been redeemed, rescued from spiritual death through the power of the Holy Spirit and the finished work of Jesus Christ.

I never said they weren't the elect of God. They are. The only kind of resurrection in the Bible is a physical resurrection; a bodily resurrection. And that takes place at the rapture before the Millennial Kingdom; in fact before the Great Tribulation takes place.

The Apostle John records the teaching of Jesus Christ regarding those who have part in the first resurrection as follows :

In these passages the Lord is, in effect, teaching the "new birth", the spiritual resurrection, of the believer. The soul that undergoes this "new birth" can never die, will never experience the "second death".

That is nonsense. There is no such thing as a spiritual resurrection. I did not rise from the dead when I was born again. The word "resurrection" always refers to the physical. Your allegorical use of the word resurrection destroys the gospel message. It gives the same message as the J.W.'s It denies the resurrection of Jesus Christ. There is no such thing as a spiritual resurrection. "Resurrection" always refers to a physical resurrection.

The second resurrection is that of thje bodies of all those in the graves as promised in John 5:28, 29. The one thousand years of Revelation 20 is not to be taken literally but represents the time between the resurrection of Jesus Christ and the resurrection promised in John 5:28, 29.[/quote[
John 5:28,29 speaks of two resurrections not one: the resurrection of the just and the resurrection of the unjust. There are two physical resurrections, just as the Bible teaches. The first one is described also in 1Thes. 4:17,18.

The Book of Revelation is a Book that contains much symbolism and much of it is written in apocalyptic language. Yet there are some who insist that a strict literal interpretation must be applied. Yet these same people wish to apply other than a literal interpretation to the passage John 5:28, 29, insisting that there are two different resurrections separated by 1000 years. That is simply an untenable position.

Why? Is your mode of interpretation this:
Where there is symbolism there is no truth; no understanding, and therefore just throw it out!

John MacArthur, a dispensationalist, fails to follow his own advice because he gives an obscure passage in Revelation 20 precedence over a very clear passage from the Gospel of John, a passage which refutes dispensational doctrine.

John MacArthur follows his own hermeutical advice. He interprets the passage according to sound hermeutical methods. Good advice!

 

[DHK]

DHK

Actually DHK you are not the only person who has studied Romans.Why would you make this claim? or so it seems

Because Romans 11, or the passage I referred is not found in Romans 15. You failed to demonstrate that.

Isaiah 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

I would start at that which you ignore;

Well as you have done a thorough study of Romans you should have seen some things for yourself.If you removed the dispensational spectacles while studying you might have seen what is there to consider:thumbs::wavey:

25 As He says also in Hosea:

“I will call them My people, who were not My people,
And her beloved, who was not beloved.”[h]
26 “And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,
‘You are not My people,’
There they shall be called sons of the living God.”

27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel:[j]

“Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea,
The remnant will be saved.
28 For He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness,
Because the Lord will make a short work upon the earth.”[k]

29 And as Isaiah said before:

“Unless the Lord of Sabaoth[l] had left us a seed,
We would have become like Sodom,
And we would have been made like Gomorrah.”[m]


For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:

“Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense,
And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”[p]
Romans 9:3 Or relatives
Romans 9:7 Genesis 21:12
Romans 9:9 Genesis 18:10, 14
Romans 9:12 Genesis 25:23
Romans 9:13 Malachi 1:2, 3
Romans 9:15 Exodus 33:19
Romans 9:17 Exodus 9:16
Romans 9:25 Hosea 2:23
Romans 9:26 Hosea 1:10
Romans 9:27 Isaiah 10:22, 23
Romans 9:28 NU-Text reads For the Lord will finish the work and cut it short upon the earth.
Romans 9:29 Literally, in Hebrew, Hosts
Romans 9:29 Isaiah 1:9
Romans 9:31 NU-Text omits of righteousness.
Romans 9:32 NU-Text reads by works.
Romans 9:33 Isaiah 8:14; 28:16
And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:

“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,[h]
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”
18 But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed:

“Their sound has gone out to all the earth,
And their words to the ends of the world.”[k]

19 But I say, did Israel not know? First Moses says:

“I will provoke you to jealousy by those who are not a nation,
I will move you to anger by a foolish nation.”[l]

20 But Isaiah is very bold and says:

“I was found by those who did not seek Me;
I was made manifest to those who did not ask for Me.”[m]

21 But to Israel he says:

“All day long I have stretched out My hands
To a disobedient and contrary people.”[n

Romans 10:1 NU-Text reads them.
Romans 10:5 Leviticus 18:5
Romans 10:6 Deuteronomy 30:12
Romans 10:7 Deuteronomy 30:13
Romans 10:8 Deuteronomy 30:14
Romans 10:11 Isaiah 28:16
Romans 10:13 Joel 2:32
Romans 10:15 NU-Text omits preach the gospel of peace, Who.
Romans 10:15 Isaiah 52:7; Nahum 1:15
Romans 10:16 Isaiah 53:1
Romans 10:18 Psalm 19:4
Romans 10:19 Deuteronomy 32:21
Romans 10:20 Isaiah 65:1
Romans 10:21 Isaiah 65:2
What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:

“God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”[d]

9 And David says:

“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
A stumbling block and a recompense to them.
10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see,
And bow down their back always.”[e]
26 And so all Israel will be saved,[g] as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”[h]

4 “For who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has become His counselor?”
35 “Or who has first given to Him
And it shall be repaid to him?”[j]
Romans 11:3 1 Kings 19:10, 14
Romans 11:4 1 Kings 19:18
Romans 11:6 NU-Text omits the rest of this verse.
Romans 11:8 Deuteronomy 29:4; Isaiah 29:10
Romans 11:10 Psalm 69:22, 23
Romans 11:22 NU-Text adds of God.
Romans 11:26 Or delivered
Romans 11:27 Isaiah 59:20, 21
Romans 11:34 Isaiah 40:13; Jeremiah 23:18
Romans 11:35 Job 41:11
9 Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,”[a] says the Lord. 20 Therefore

“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
If he is thirsty, give him a drink;
For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head.”
Romans 12:19 Deuteronomy 32:35
Romans 12:20 Proverbs 25:21, 22
Romans 13:9 NU-Text omits “You shall not bear false witness.”
Romans 13:9 Exodus 20:13–15, 17; Deuteronomy 5:17–19, 21
Romans 13:9 Leviticus 19:18
11 For it is written:

“As I live, says the Lord,
Every knee shall bow to Me,
And every tongue shall confess to God.”[d]
Romans 14:11 Isaiah 45:23
“For this reason I will confess to You among the Gentiles,
And sing to Your name.”[c]

10 And again he says:

“Rejoice, O Gentiles, with His people!”[d]

11 And again:

“Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles!
Laud Him, all you peoples!”[e]

12 And again, Isaiah says:

“There shall be a root of Jesse;
And He who shall rise to reign over the Gentiles,
In Him the Gentiles shall hope.”[f]
Romans 15:3 Psalm 69:9
Romans 15:7 NU-Text and M-Text read you.
Romans 15:9 2 Samuel 22:50; Psalm 18:49
Romans 15:10 Deuteronomy 32:43
Romans 15:11 Psalm 117:1
Romans 15:12 Isaiah 11:10
Romans 15:14 M-Text reads others.
Romans 15:21 Isaiah 52:15


DHK......15x Paul by the Spirit quotes from Isa saying these things are a confirmation of the promises made to the Fathers...linking jew and gentile to the same covenant promises...your theology has no real place for this,does it? No mystery, no double fulfillment here.

8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.

10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.

11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people.

12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

Icon, you have shown your ability to demonstrate that Paul quotes from the Book of Isaiah. You did not show that Paul referred to Isaiah 11:6-8. In this you failed. All the Scripture you posted did not meet the challenge I presented you. You cannot show that Paul ever once referred to Isaiah 11:6-8 in the entire Book of Romans.

DHK......if you took all the blood of the horses and the riders it would not stack up to 5-6 ft tall throughout the land:thumbs:

Again, I repeat to you, It is not talking about the blood of horses. So what is your point. I gave you other Scripture to read, but you don't really care do you?

 

[OldRegular]

THroughout the 1990's I taught the only men's SS class in the Church where I belonged. The men ranged in age from early 40's to mid 80's and certainly they were a diverse group. The area where I live could be called "horse country". In olden times it was a winter colony for rich Yankees, some of whom liked horses. I say this because one of the members of my class was a horse lover, a horse lover with a bad heart. But he was not one of the genteel rich Yankee horse lovers, he was as some used to say "rough as a cob", nevertheless a faithful member and, strangely, born the same day I was. Just to show how much he loved horses; when he died his saddle adorned has coffin at the wake or viewing.

When I thought of this man while still living and when I think of him now years after his death I was and still am reminded of the passage from Isaiah: The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb. Not that there were any lambs in the class but in contrast with my horse lover the passage from Isaiah seems appropriate.

Now to the purpose of my memories. I believe the passage from Isaiah shown below is fulfilled in the Church and likely presents a picture of the harmony amongst the redeemed in the New Heavens and New Earth I do not believe it represents anything in the so-called millennial reign.

Isaiah 11:1-9
1. And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
2. And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
3. And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
4. But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
5. And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
6. The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice’ den.
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

 

[HankD]

For the Preterist,

Christ's return - Done

Kingdom - Done

Resurrection - Done

What's next?

More (and at an increasing rate) sin, death, disease, famines, pestilences, wars, rumors of war, murder, abortions, anguish and agony ...

etc, etc, etc...

HankD

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

Because Romans 11, or the passage I referred is not found in Romans 15. You failed to demonstrate that.

Paul does not quote all of Isa.11 in romans 15 DHK. But the Holy Spirit having him quote from Isa in light of the gospel promises being fulfilled should cause us to think about what Isaiah was setting forth as the promise.

Isaiah 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

This passage speaks of a time of the reversal of the curse of Gen3.The language is symbolic of the literal peace and joy of the Kingdom as it spreads worldwide....

Similar language is often used by Isaiah;
in Isa11:5
5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins
He is using descriptive language and figures to set forth a literal understanding in our minds.

9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.

10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

The kingdom has come to earth with a heavenly reign.... the heavenly Mountain....the heavenly Zion

2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

You are looking at the earthly zion and Jerusalem to be the Holy Place,the Holy Mountain. I now look to the heavenly Mt Zion and Jerusalem, as the Nt writers instruct us to-

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Icon, you have shown your ability to demonstrate that Paul quotes from the Book of Isaiah. You did not show that Paul referred to Isaiah 11:6-8. In this you failed. All the Scripture you posted did not meet the challenge I presented you. You cannot show that Paul ever once referred to Isaiah 11:6-8 in the entire Book of Romans.

Again, I repeat to you, It is not talking about the blood of horses. So what is your point. I gave you other Scripture to read, but you don't really care do you?

I care about scripture DHK and the correct understanding of it.The point is that TOM said you cannot maintain your extreme literalism as this verse shows.There are many other examples that have a literal meaning that is spoken of in figurative language. We can look at any scripture you want, but you have not attempted to answer romans 15:8 have you?


Isaiah 34:3
Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.


Did the mountains melt????

Amos 9:13
Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt.

Is this a literally melting? and literal sweet wine?

Here in Romans 16:
19 For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil.

20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

Is Satan literally under your feet, or does this speak of the Kingdom of God and the spread of the gospel what bruises Satan......
like here-

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

 

[HankD]

DHK


Paul does not quote all of Isa.11 in romans 15 DHK. But the Holy Spirit having him quote from Isa in light of the gospel promises being fulfilled should cause us to think about what Isaiah was setting forth as the promise.



This passage speaks of a time of the reversal of the curse of Gen3.The language is symbolic of the literal peace and joy of the Kingdom as it spreads worldwide....

Similar language is often used by Isaiah;
in Isa11:5
5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins
He is using descriptive language and figures to set forth a literal understanding in our minds.


The kingdom has come to earth with a heavenly reign.... the heavenly Mountain....the heavenly Zion




You are looking at the earthly zion and Jerusalem to be the Holy Place,the Holy Mountain. I now look to the heavenly Mt Zion and Jerusalem, as the Nt writers instruct us to-







[/B]



I care about scripture DHK and the correct understanding of it.The point is that TOM said you cannot maintain your extreme literalism as this verse shows.There are many other examples that have a literal meaning that is spoken of in figurative language. We can look at any scripture you want, but you have not attempted to answer romans 15:8 have you?


Isaiah 34:3
Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.


Did the mountains melt????

Amos 9:13
Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt.

Is this a literally melting? and literal sweet wine?

Here in Romans 16:
19 For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil.

20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

Is Satan literally under your feet, or does this speak of the Kingdom of God and the spread of the gospel what bruises Satan......
like here-

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

Again, the scripture is a blend of the literal, metaphor, simile and symbolism.

The key is "rightly dividing the word of truth".


HankD

 

[thomas15]

When I thought of this man while still living and when I think of him now years after his death I was and still am reminded of the passage from Isaiah: The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb. Not that there were any lambs in the class but in contrast with my horse lover the passage from Isaiah seems appropriate.

Now to the purpose of my memories. I believe the passage from Isaiah shown below is fulfilled in the Church and likely presents a picture of the harmony amongst the redeemed in the New Heavens and New Earth I do not believe it represents anything in the so-called millennial reign.

If this were an accurate interpretation based on careful Biblical exegesis, then go ahead and identify the "wolves" and "lambs". And since they are by your own definition redeemed, how does one group of redeemed behave like wolves before they become transformed into behavor like lambs?

In order to make your claim, those living prior to the church age, even those who were saved could have no possible clue as to what Isaiah was talking about. Jesus, when asked by his followers about the restoration of the kingdom was either less than forthcoming with the information or the NT writers less than through when transmitting this information to us today. Jesus generally used the term "wolves" to indicate something less than good in a godly sense.

In any event, I cannot see how you can make your claim based on the Biblical record without having had some additional spiritual insights not available to those who simply take the words of Isaiah at face value. Perhaps you could share those insights with us?