Some strong hard evidence for The Mark of the Beast

[Yeshua1]

Dr. Bob is also a Calvinist. I expect about half the board are Calvinists and the other half Arminian like yourself. You have said some pretty harsh things about Calvin and Calvinism. I expect you believe Calvinism is a false doctrine. Also I have seen far worse things posted on this Board regarding both Arminianism and Calvinism than simply saying they are false doctrine.

DHK disagress with calvinism as to how salvation of God is worked out for sinners, but he also respects those calvinists such as Dr macArthur on their news of end times...

just see this as bethren just having discussions and disagreemnets on what the bible teaches concerning the end times/rule of christ/Second coming..

And again, if you want to keep parroting that darby gave us Dispy theology, is it also OK to have origen and Augustine have to us eschatology/a mil views?

 

[OldRegular]

DHK disagress with calvinism as to how salvation of God is worked out for sinners, but he also respects those calvinists such as Dr macArthur on their news of end times...

just see this as bethren just having discussions and disagreemnets on what the bible teaches concerning the end times/rule of christ/Second coming..

And again, if you want to keep parroting that darby gave us Dispy theology, is it also OK to have origen and Augustine have to us eschatology/a mil views?

Y!,
You really need to read before you speak. It was not me who said Darby was the father of pre-trib dispensationalism, it was dispensational scholar Dr. Thomas Ice. I have posted the following several times. Read it and then follow the link. You might learn something. A more expansive link is: http://www.raptureready.com/featured/ice/ttcol.html.

I have posted on this Forum information by dispensational scholar and author Dr. Thomas Ice showing that John Nelson Darby, while convalescing from a "riding accident" at his sisters home, developed the concept of the pre-tribulation removal of the Church apparently based on his new understanding of Isaiah 32. Dr. Ice writes further regarding Darby:

Dispensations, Israel, and the Church

From his earliest days, Darby, like Graves, believed not only in the future conversion of the Jews, but also restoration to their homeland. By taking promises to both Israel and the church literally, Darby thought that God' s single plan of salvation is harmonized for God' s two peoples- Israel and the church. Israel, God' s earthly people, are destined to rule over the Nations with Christ before their resurrection. The Church, God' s heavenly people, will reign with Christ in the same kingdom, but in resurrection bodies.

Darby' s distinction between God' s plan for Israel and the Church formed the basis for his most controversial contribution to Evangelical Christianity- the pretribulation rapture of the Church. Even strong opponents to this doctrine admit that it is logical if God is going to literally fulfill His ancient promises to Israel. The Church must be removed before God resumes His work with Israel, enabling the two programs to fully participate in the millennial kingdom.

Like many before him, Darby saw God' s progressive revelation of His plan in terms of dispensations. Unlike C. I. Scofield, Darby did not begin his first dispensation until after Noah' s flood.

Darby' s view of the church was crucial to his development of dispensationalism, especially his view (shared by many in his day) of the present ruin of the church. Elmore observed:

By separating any earthly governmental concepts from the Anglican doctrine of the one, holy, catholic, apostolic church, Darby maintained a high view of the gathered church without aligning it with any race or national government fashioned after Old Testament Israel. By emphasizing Pauline uniqueness, he separated the Church unto its heavenly destiny. (312-13)


DARBY'S CONTRIBUTION

Darby is the father of dispensationalism. " Although he was not a systematic theologian, he was an expositor of ' dispensational truth.' He synthesized exegetical truths to show the full story-line of the Bible, God' s activity in human history" (Elmore, 312). Darby' s employment of the hermeneutical principle of literal interpretation for all of Scripture, including prophecy, naturally led to the distinction between Israel and the Church. This resulted, of course, in the understanding that the hopes of Israel and those of the Church were of a different nature. (Crutchfield, 341)

Dispensationalism came to North America through Darby and other Brethren before the Civil War. After the war dispensational teachings captured the minds of a significant number of Christian leaders, and by 1875, its distinctives were disseminated throughout Canada and the United States. Dispensationalism spread through preaching, conferences, the founding of schools, and literature. By the turn of the century dispensationalism was well known and quickly became the most popular evangelical system of theology.

http://www.raptureready.com/featured...tionalism.html

I will say this. There is not a single passage of Scripture that supports the pre-trib removal of the Church. Claiming that 1st Thessalonians 4: 13-18 does is utter nonsense. An even more egregious error than the "pre-trib rapture", however, is the teaching that the Church, for which Jesus Christ died, is only a "parenthesis" in GOD's program for Israel. GOD is not a puppet whose strings are pulled by the Jews/Israel regardless of what some think!:wavey::wavey::wavey::wavey:

 

[DHK]

Y!,
You really need to read before you speak. It was not me who said Darby was the father of pre-trib dispensationalism, it was dispensational scholar Dr. Thomas Ice. I have posted the following several times. Read it and then follow the link. You might learn something. A more expansive link is:

We do note:
No scripture is presented.
No argument from OR himself is presented.
His is an appeal to others instead of the Bible. It falls short of any Scripturally based argument.

I will say this. There is not a single passage of Scripture that supports the pre-trib removal of the Church. Claiming that 1st Thessalonians 4: 13-18 does is utter nonsense. An even more egregious error than the "pre-trib rapture", however, is the teaching that the Church, for which Jesus Christ died, is only a "parenthesis" in GOD's program for Israel. GOD is not a puppet whose strings are pulled by the Jews/Israel regardless of what some think!

The statement: "Not a single passage supports the pre-trib removal of the church," is not defended in any way. It is a dogmatic statement made without any evidence or proof, and therefore can be considered erroneous.

The claim of 1Thes.4:13-18 is not nonsense (for the pre-trib rapture), nor has it been refuted by you. Your appeal is to man, not Scripture.

You continue to make a false accusation that either one of us have ever made an admission of believing in a parenthesis church. Now an apology is in order.

Nobody said God is a puppet. Why do you act like this?

 

[OldRegular]

We do note:
No scripture is presented.

I posted the following on page #1 of the thread "The Secret Rapture return of Christ approaches" showing that the concept of a "secret removal of the church" was nonsense but more importantly showing the similarity of the language used in several passages of Scripture showing the Return of Jesus Christ, in particular the TRUMPETS. NO RESPONSE!

Well it is closer than when HE ascended about 2000 years ago and closer than when Darby fell often his horse and had an epiphany; but it will not be secret and it will not be silent:

1st Thessalonians 4:16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Matthew 24:30, 31
30. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1st Corinthians 15:51-57
51. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56. The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Revelation 1:7. Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Revelations 6:12-17
12. And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13. And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16. And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17. For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Revelation 11:15-19
15. And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17. Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Revelation 19:11-21
11. And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
17. And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18. That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

When Jesus Christ returns every person who ever lived will know it! Notice the sound of the trumpet. GOD tells us through the Apostles John and Paul that it will be the seventh and last trumpet.

 

[OldRegular]

We do note:
No scripture is presented.

I posted the following in post #60 on the thread " Was peter Teaching isreal To Be Blessed In Futire in Acts 3?" I called attention to the use of "the last day" by Jesus Christ as follows:

The verses John 6:39 through John 12:48 clearly show that the resurrection of the believer and the judgment of the unbeliever occur at the same time. That cannot be honestly disputed.

NO RESPONSE

That is a pipe dream and I really don't understand why you people cannot simply understand what Scripture clearly teaches.

You have to throw away Matthew 21:43. Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

You have to throw away John 5: 28, 29. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

You have to throw away John 6:39. And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

And

John 6:40. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

And

John 6:44. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

And

John 6:54. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

And

John 11:24. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

And

John 12:48. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

The verses John 6:39 through John 12:48 clearly show that the resurrection of the believer and the judgment of the unbeliever occur at the same time. That cannot be honestly disputed.

You have to throw away Acts 24:15. And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

You have to throw away 1 Corinthians 15:20-26. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

You have already thrown away 1 Peter 3:22. Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

And all because of a fictitious pre-trib rapture invented out of "whole cloth" by one John Nelson Darby while he was recovering from a fall off a horse. There is absolutely no basis in Scripture for such and no one on this Board has yet produced one. It does not exist!

Absolutely no response to the Scripture presented but the following from you!

You have no basis for this slander. You need to stop before someone complains about it, and you find yourself in trouble. This type of slander has no business being posted on the board and you know it.

 

[OldRegular]

We do note:
No scripture is presented.

I posted the following {post #41} of the thread "The Secret Rapture return of Christ approaches". NO RESPONSE!

Consider Matthew 13:30 in context:

Matthew 13:24-30
24. Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25. But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28. He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29. But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30.Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.


So what is your point?? Perhaps you should read further to the explanation of Jesus Christ of the above parable:

Matthew 13:36-43
36. Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37. He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38. The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39. The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42. And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Above we have a wonderful picture of the work of Jesus Christ in the Salvation of the elect. The Good Seed, the redeemed elect are translated into the Kingdom of the Son as shown in Colossians 1:13. Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

At the end of the world we have a picture of the Resurrection of all the dead both both the righteous, the good seed, and the unrighteous, the tares, followed by the White Throne Judgment.{John 5:28, 29} The righteous shall enter the Kingdom of GOD, the New Heavens and new Earth, the unrighteous with Satan shall be cast into the Lake of Fire.

The only thing that gets a response from you is when I quote Dr. Ice because he tells the truth about John Nelson Darby's role in pre-trib dispensationalism; and you don't want to face the truth.

 

[Yeshua1]

I posted the following in post #60 on the thread " Was peter Teaching isreal To Be Blessed In Futire in Acts 3?" I called attention to the use of "the last day" by Jesus Christ as follows:
NO RESPONSE



Absolutely no response to the Scripture presented but the following from you!

There is no biblcal basis to state that God replaced isreal with the Church, or that the church somehow became Spiritual isreal in the plan of God, so why do you keep defending that notion?

 

[Yeshua1]

I posted the following {post #41} of the thread "The Secret Rapture return of Christ approaches". NO RESPONSE!



The only thing that gets a response from you is when I quote Dr. Ice because he tells the truth about John Nelson Darby's role in pre-trib dispensationalism; and you don't want to face the truth.

Well you face the truth that Origen was the father of how you view scriptures, and Augustine of how Isreal is now the church then?

 

[DHK]

I posted the following on page #1 of the thread "The Secret Rapture return of Christ approaches" showing that the concept of a "secret removal of the church" was nonsense but more importantly showing the similarity of the language used in several passages of Scripture showing the Return of Jesus Christ, in particular the TRUMPETS. NO RESPONSE!

If you are going to refute my position then you must refute what I post.
You can't refute me by posting Ice, Darby, Scofield, or any other of your so-called scholars. You must refute my position. You say you are not a Calvinist. I think you are. I will consider you are until you demonstrate otherwise.
I say that because, in the same way that I just assume you have the same Calvinistic view "like every other Calvinist" you assume that I have the same view "of every other dispensationalist." But that is not true.
You therefore must refute my position and pay attention to what I believe.

Secondly, posting a page of verses with little commentary doesn't prove anything.

Well it is closer than when HE ascended about 2000 years ago and closer than when Darby fell often his horse and had an epiphany; but it will not be secret and it will not be silent:

A needless red herring based on an attack of someone's character.
It will be ignored.

When Jesus Christ returns every person who ever lived will know it! Notice the sound of the trumpet. GOD tells us through the Apostles John and Paul that it will be the seventh and last trumpet.

You quoted seven passages of Scripture and then ended with the above statement which hasn't proved a thing. Your conclusion is an opinion that is opinion only. It has no basis in fact. There is nothing to say that the last trump is the seventh trumpet. I don't believe that. That actually is an opinion that is flawed and makes no sense. The seventh trumpet is a trumpet of judgment on this earth, not of the coming of the Lord.

Rev 15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
--The seventh angel had already blown his trumpet by this time. There were seven vials to come afterward.
--You have not refuted my position at all. You never even touched it.

 

[OldRegular]

Look at all the Scripture y1 and DHK posted and notice how they ignored the Scripture I posted, just as they did before. Tee Hee!, Tee Hee!, Tee Hee!:applause::applause::applause::applause:

 

[RLBosley]

When Jesus Christ returns every person who ever lived will know it! Notice the sound of the trumpet. GOD tells us through the Apostles John and Paul that it will be the seventh and last trumpet.

Exactly. Christ comes to gather the elect at the last trumpet (1 Cor 15:52) and it simply can't be the last trumpet if there are 7 more later on. What happens at the 7th trumpet, the last trumpet, in Revelation?

Rev 11:15-18 HCSB
The seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven saying:

The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Messiah, and He will reign forever and ever!​

The 24 elders, who were seated before God on their thrones, fell facedown and worshiped God, saying:

We thank You, Lord God, the Almighty, who is and who was, because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign. The nations were angry, but Your wrath has come. The time has come for the dead to be judged and to give the reward to Your servants the prophets, to the saints, and to those who fear Your name, both small and great, and the time has come to destroy those who destroy the earth.​

I don't think this could be any clearer. At the 7th trumpet the kingdoms of the world are conquered in fullness by God and Christ, establishing his visible kingdom forever. It is the time of judgment: the elders cry out in worship and say, "Your wrath has come. The time has come for the dead to be judged!" I don't see how you can possibly read this an think that this is not the return of Christ and final judgment.

Part of this misunderstanding comes from the idea that Revelation is completely chronological. It is not. It is a series of visions that tell the same story from multiple views (at least 3, though some believe it's 7).

 

[DHK]

I posted the following in post #60 on the thread " Was peter Teaching isreal To Be Blessed In Futire in Acts 3?" I called attention to the use of "the last day" by Jesus Christ as follows:

Peter was near the Temple. He was preaching the gospel, which is the most important point. The opportunity of his preaching arose because he healed a lame man, and the crowed marveled at the power of Christ that was exercised for such a one to be healed. Whether or not they were Jews hardly matters then does it?
The "last days" started from the Day of Pentecost.
NO RESPONSE[/quote]

Originally Posted by OldRegular View Post
That is a pipe dream and I really don't understand why you people cannot simply understand what Scripture clearly teaches.
You have to throw away Matthew 21:43.
You have to throw away John 5: 28, 29.
You have to throw away John 6:39.
And
John 6:40.
And
John 6:44.
And
John 6:54.
And
John 11:24.
And
John 12:48.
The verses John 6:39 through John 12:48 clearly show that the resurrection of the believer and the judgment of the unbeliever occur at the same time. That cannot be honestly disputed.

No they don't, and yes they can be easily disputed.
So, you have easily demonstrated how you can copy and paste. We already know that. But you haven't demonstrated anything. You haven't refuted anything. All that you have done is quoted random Scripture. So?

You have to throw away Acts 24:15. And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Perhaps making a statement like this shows your misunderstanding of Scripture. You simply make a dogmatic statement without any explanation and then assume that we should take your word above everyone else's. Sorry, it doesn't work that way.

You have to throw away 1 Corinthians 15:20-26.

I don't have to throw any Scripture away. Why would you think that?

You have already thrown away 1 Peter 3:22. Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

I have given you a thorough exegetical exposition of this passage. If you don't accept it, I have nothing more to say on this passage.

And all because of a fictitious pre-trib rapture invented out of "whole cloth" by one John Nelson Darby while he was recovering from a fall off a horse. There is absolutely no basis in Scripture for such and no one on this Board has yet produced one. It does not exist!

Do you think you are winning brownie points by humiliating others?
Do you think you have won a debate because you know how to degrade another.
Actually that is how you have lost the debate. When one must resort to such tactics it simply means they have nothing positive to add to the discussion.

Absolutely no response to the Scripture presented but the following from you!

You have your response.

 

[OldRegular]

If you are going to refute my position then you must refute what I post.
You can't refute me by posting Ice, Darby, Scofield, or any other of your so-called scholars. You must refute my position. You say you are not a Calvinist. I think you are. I will consider you are until you demonstrate otherwise.
I say that because, in the same way that I just assume you have the same Calvinistic view "like every other Calvinist" you assume that I have the same view "of every other dispensationalist." But that is not true.
You therefore must refute my position and pay attention to what I believe.

I really don't care what you believe DHK. I have pointed out that John Nelson Darby is the father of pre-trib dispensationalism and the subsequent blasphemy that the Church for which Jesus Christ died is a "parenthesis" in GOD's program for Israel. Neither of these dispensational doctrines can be substantiated by Scripture but this is what classic/revised dispensationalism of Darby, Scofield, Chafer, Walvoord, Ryrie, and others teach. Because you are ignorant of that truth does not speak well of you. It appears to be a case of the blind leading the blind. Jesus Christ could well have been speaking of you folks when HE said:

Matthew 13:14, 15
14. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15. For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

The Apostle Paul, inspired by the Holy Ghost, said in a similar fashion:

Acts 28:25-27
25. And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
26. Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
27. For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Secondly, posting a page of verses with little commentary doesn't prove anything.

Not to you for certain!
:wavey::wavey:
adieu, adios, farewell, so long, goodbye, conga'
:wavey::wavey:

 

[DHK]

I posted the following {post #41} of the thread "The Secret Rapture return of Christ approaches". NO RESPONSE!

Posting passages of Scripture without comment is meaningless. You haven't refuted any position.

Consider Matthew 13:30 in context:
Matthew 13:24-30

Okay, I have considered it. So what? You haven't demonstrated a thing except that you know how to copy and paste. We all know that.

So what is your point?? Perhaps you should read further to the explanation of Jesus Christ of the above parable:
Matthew 13:36-43

It appears that you never got my point or answered it.
But I will read the passage you recommend.
Okay, consider it read! What is your point? :sleep:

Above we have a wonderful picture of the work of Jesus Christ in the Salvation of the elect. The Good Seed, the redeemed elect are translated into the Kingdom of the Son as shown in Colossians 1:13. Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

You are confused. Col.1:13 has nothing to do with this parable. Jesus was speaking to his disciples. But surrounding his disciples were other Jews and Jewish leaders. It was a Jewish audience. We know that from the context:

Mat 13:54 And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works?
The good seed are the just of the earthly kingdom. Those unjust Jews will never enter that earthly kingdom. That is the only kingdom those Jews had learned about and knew about. The disciples had not studied Pauline theology. All Jews, but saved and unsaved, at that time understood the Millennial Kingdom described in the OT, a kingdom yet to come.

At the end of the world we have a picture of the Resurrection of all the dead both both the righteous, the good seed, and the unrighteous, the tares, followed by the White Throne Judgment.{John 5:28, 29} The righteous shall enter the Kingdom of GOD, the New Heavens and new Earth, the unrighteous with Satan shall be cast into the Lake of Fire.

But that is not what Jesus was speaking about. His audience were the Jews and He was speaking of a physical earthly kingdom where their Messiah would be ruling from the throne of David.

The only thing that gets a response from you is when I quote Dr. Ice because he tells the truth about John Nelson Darby's role in pre-trib dispensationalism; and you don't want to face the truth.

Everything you say goes down the drain and thrown in the trash when you end your post on character assassination. If you want to know why it wasn't read before, this is why. Keep it up, and your posts won't get read by me. Your "truth" about Darby is no truth at all. You need to be able to argue your position from scripture, which you are unable to do.

 

[Yeshua1]

Look at all the Scripture y1 and DHK posted and notice how they ignored the Scripture I posted, just as they did before. Tee Hee!, Tee Hee!, Tee Hee!:applause::applause::applause::applause:

Too bad that you arguement is against Dispy straw man darby, and not from the bible itself!

 

[DHK]

I really don't care what you believe DHK.

That has been the entire problem in this entire discussion/debate. You don't care what your opponent or what the other person has to say or especially what they believe. You don't take the time to listen to their beliefs. That is sad because that is what debate is all about.
My beliefs are defined by how I believe the Bible, how the Holy Spirit has led me to believe what I believe. You haven't bothered to find that out. Thus most of what you say to me is completely irrelevant.

I have pointed out that John Nelson Darby is the father of pre-trib dispensationalism and the subsequent blasphemy that the Church for which Jesus Christ died is a "parenthesis" in GOD's program for Israel.

I have never read Darby's commentaries.
I have never said that I believe in "parenthesis church."
Here you go on and on about things I don't necessarily believe in.
You spend your time refuting and talking about what other people believe not taking an ounce of time to actually read what I believe. You debate books not people. Sad.

Neither of these dispensational doctrines can be substantiated by Scripture but this is what classic/revised dispensationalism of Darby, Scofield, Chafer, Walvoord, Ryrie, and others teach.

"These doctrines" are not mine, and I never said they were.
I never admitted to believing in "classic/revised dispensationalism" and never used that term to define my self.
I never used "Darby, Scofield, Chafer, Walvoord, Ryrie, and others" to define my position. You debate books rather than people. You know what they believe and not what I believe. Why aren't you interested in others?

Because you are ignorant of that truth does not speak well of you.

This ad hominem is completely unnecessary. The Holy Spirit has led me to the truth that I believe. And you are the one that is without any knowledge about it. You don't listen. And you won't bother to find out what my position is. You simply keep on and on quoting others. But I don't have the same position of others.

It appears to be a case of the blind leading the blind. Jesus Christ could well have been speaking of you folks when HE said:

Matthew 13:14, 15
14. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15. For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Am I supposed to be leading your heroes: Ice, Chafer and Walvoord, or are they supposed to be leading me? You didn't say.
Either way we have nothing in common. I didn't get my beliefs from them.
You can't define me from these men. If you want intelligent conversation you must listen to what my position is, and then use the Bible (not other men's books) to refute it.

The Apostle Paul, inspired by the Holy Ghost, said in a similar fashion:

Acts 28:25-27
25. And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
26. Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
27. For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Maybe that is your attitude toward Darby. But I don't follow Darby's teaching. I try to tell you that. You have no idea what I believe. You don't take the time to listen. You simply quote your sources and then you tell me what I believe, which is very insulting. In fact it is a form of lying and deceit. If you don't find out what a person believes, then don't be dishonest and post something he doesn't believe. That is not ethical whatsoever.

And that is why after many pages there has been no productive conversation. One must listen to both sides.

 

[Yeshua1]

he does seem to be asserting though that holding to a pre trib pre mil viewpoint is heresy, doesn't he?

 

[Greektim]

Not the same thing. I would think you would know the difference.

I fail to see the distinction. Paul applied an allegory to patriarchs (and matriarchs) to make a spiritual point. Are you saying that method is illegitimate?

 

[Yeshua1]

I fail to see the distinction. Paul applied an allegory to patriarchs (and matriarchs) to make a spiritual point. Are you saying that method is illegitimate?

No, rather that it was in an isloated case, where paul himself stated that was in an allegory, but not the usual way to inteprete the prophetic element of the Bible!

 

[Greektim]

No, rather that it was in an isloated case, where paul himself stated that was in an allegory, but not the usual way to inteprete the prophetic element of the Bible!

Doesn't make it incorrect to allegorize, though. Paul did it! And I believe there are principles which can guide figural readings of Scripture.

And why do you keep speaking of the OT in terms of "prophets" or "prophetic" as if that is the only way the OT can speak about Jesus. You seem to hate typology, which the NT clearly utilizes.