Some Thoughts on the Post-Incarnate Christ

[asterisktom]

It is not true preterism, and certainly not Biblical.

What a tendetious post! As if Abraham, Isaac and Jacob turned into apes or elephants when they died!
Mankind is both spiritual and physical (Eccl. 12:7). The risen Lord Jesus was also both spiritual and physical (Luke 24:39-43). When He returns, He will also be both spiritual and physical (Acts 1:11). Since He is the firstborn from the dead (Col. 1:18; Rev. 1:5), I think we may take it that when we rise at the end of the age, we shall also be both spiritual and physical, though not as we were ( 1 Cor. 15:50-54).

I care nothing for what a secular site like Wikipaedia may posit.

The fact that Preterism is tendentious is not really a mark against it. It is neither here nor there. Reform theology as well incipient as Christianity were also once viewed the same way.

The fact that you resort to silly retorts ("turned into apes or elephants") rather than answer the simple yes or no question is an answer in itself. It reveals an emotional knee-jerk antipathy to anything that challenges your doctrinaire bubble. You refuse to even consider why those questions are important. Instead, shields go up.

Once again, just answer the questions sans insults.
Or just leave the thread for those who are willing.

 

[asterisktom]

I heard a preacher not long ago that said Biblical heresy's usually come in pairs. It's just the nature of heresy.

If you're a Preterist most likely your also a Universalist. But there are a few exceptions.

I am certainly not a universalist. You maybe received your information about Preterism from a misinformed source. Of course, like Baptists and Christians in general, there are always going to be some cultic -isms.

 

[Charlie24]

I am certainly not a universalist. You maybe received your information about Preterism from a misinformed source. Of course, like Baptists and Christians in general, there are always going to be some cultic -isms.

I'll take it you're an exception. That's good!

I've met several on the various websites that claim both.

 

[asterisktom]

I heard a preacher not long ago that said Biblical heresy's usually come in pairs. It's just the nature of heresy.

If you're a Preterist most likely your also a Universalist. But there are a few exceptions.

I started to write that very few Preterists are universalists, but I am not really sure. You may be right. Very sad, because it reduces the whole point of Christ dying for our sins if everyone gets saved anyway. But that is just one of the blots on our Preterism. The other is the bizarre notion that we are in Heaven now. Also that no one was forgiven or saved until AD 70. Most of these false teachings come from popular teachers like Don Preston and Mike Sullivan. They give a false impression of Preterism, prompting the need for some of us to adopt the term Biblical Preterism.

 

[Charlie24]

I started to write that very few Preterists are universalists, but I am not really sure. You may be right. Very sad, because it reduces the whole point of Christ dying for our sins if everyone gets saved anyway. But that is just one of the blots on our Preterism. The other is the bizarre notion that we are in Heaven now. Also that no one was forgiven or saved until AD 70. Most of these false teachings come from popular teachers like Don Preston and Mike Sullivan. They give a false impression of Preterism, prompting the need for some of us to adopt the term Biblical Preterism.

I can't keep up with the different versions of Preterists, it almost like keeping up with the different Baptists.

To much work for me now, I just try to keep it simple and not worry about it.

I've heard a lot of reasons for the preterists but I've not seen any of it in Scripture that passes the test.

 

[asterisktom]

NO & NO

They had been human when they were alive but would not be considered as presently human at the time of Jesus. To be considered human requires a combination of biological & cognitive states. A state of self-awareness. A corpse does not have these.

But since they are not at this time resurrected the the question really proves nothing.

So this means, according to you, that these Patriarchs will become human again. Likewise, all Christians who have died cease to be human. And then get rehumanized. Is that what you are saying?

"To be considered human requires a combination of biological & cognitive states"

Do we have scripture for this definition?

 

[kyredneck]

I've heard a lot of reasons for the preterists but I've not seen any of it in Scripture that passes the test.

Probably because you're content to let others tell you what to believe. There's PLENTY to be found in the scripture.

 

[Charlie24]

Probably because you're content to let others tell you what to believe. There's PLENTY to be found in the scripture.

When you some time show me some of that and I'll fact check it in my trusty old KJV.

 

[kyredneck]

When you some time show me some of that

Would be a useless endeavor waste of my time..

 

[Charlie24]

Would be a useless endeavor.

I think you may be right.

 

[Silverhair]

So this means, according to you, that these Patriarchs will become human again. Likewise, all Christians who have died cease to be human. And then get rehumanized. Is that what you are saying?

"To be considered human requires a combination of biological & cognitive states"

Do we have scripture for this definition?

Is a corpse self-aware?

You asked a question I gave you an answer that you do not like . That does not change the truth of my answers.

The bible answers many questions but not all.

But you asked for scripture, have you not read of Lazarus?

He was dead. Joh_11:14 So Jesus then said to them plainly, "Lazarus is dead,

Joh 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,
Joh 11:26 and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"

We may die physically but our spirit never dies.

Joh 11:43 When He had said these things, He cried out with a loud voice, "Lazarus, come forth."
Joh 11:44 The man who had died came forth, bound hand and foot with wrappings, and his face was wrapped around with a cloth.

In this we see the future resurrection to life for those that have trusted in Christ Jesus.

We will again have a state of self-awareness.

We are told there will be a New Heaven and the New Earth where God will dwell among His people. Rev 21:3. "He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain" Rev 21:4

 

[Van]

I did not read the Opening Post link, but I believe the idea is that Christ's resurrected physical body will not be present during the millennial kingdom. Of course the second Person of the trinity can manifest Himself in any manner He might choose, from a burning bush to a lifeless physical body on a cross.

What is clearly myth is Jesus must either be in the form of "spirit" lacking physical substance, or physical, having physical substance. Folks, He could one or the other or both! He is God almighty.

 

[asterisktom]

Is a corpse self-aware?

You asked a question I gave you an answer that you do not like . That does not change the truth of my answers.

The bible answers many questions but not all.

But you asked for scripture, have you not read of Lazarus?

He was dead. Joh_11:14 So Jesus then said to them plainly, "Lazarus is dead,

Joh 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,
Joh 11:26 and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"

We may die physically but our spirit never dies.

Joh 11:43 When He had said these things, He cried out with a loud voice, "Lazarus, come forth."
Joh 11:44 The man who had died came forth, bound hand and foot with wrappings, and his face was wrapped around with a cloth.

In this we see the future resurrection to life for those that have trusted in Christ Jesus.

We will again have a state of self-awareness.
.
We are told there will be a New Heaven and the New Earth where God will dwell among His people. Rev 21:3. "He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain" Rev 21:4

You are right. I don't like your answer. You miss the biblical point. The three patriarchs were not unaware corpses. Your conclusion is like that of the Sadducees

 

[Silverhair]

You are right. I don't like your answer. You miss the biblical point. The three patriarchs were not unaware corpses. Your conclusion is like that of the Sadducees

No @asterisktom it is logical.

Your comment "The three patriarchs were not unaware corpses." is illogical.

 

[asterisktom]

No @asterisktom it is logical.

Your comment "The three patriarchs were not unaware corpses." is illogical.

You are the one who asked "Is a corpse self-aware?" And then you added "We will again have a state of self-awareness."

"Again". This shows - unless you miswrote - that you believe there was a time when the dead in Christ, including the Patriarchs, had a period where they were not aware. Sure, you wrote also that the spirit never dies but, according to what you wrote, it is a spirit without awareness.

I'm just connecting the dots that you lay out. And it sounds a lot like soul sleep, which is not biblical.

 

[asterisktom]

"To be considered human requires a combination of biological & cognitive states"

So this leaves you with two choices as far as Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are concerned: At the very moment of Jesus' "God of the living" comment those three were either had something "biological" or, if not, they were not human. There is no third option. This was part of Jesus' point to the Sadducees, whose conception of life and afterlife never went beyond the grossly material. Being "of the earth" they only speak of earthly things, John 3:31.

 

[Silverhair]

You are the one who asked "Is a corpse self-aware?" And then you added "We will again have a state of self-awareness."

"Again". This shows - unless you miswrote - that you believe there was a time when the dead in Christ, including the Patriarchs, had a period where they were not aware. Sure, you wrote also that the spirit never dies but, according to what you wrote, it is a spirit without awareness.

I'm just connecting the dots that you lay out. And it sounds a lot like soul sleep, which is not biblical.

The spirit is not human or do you have a different meaning for human.

What were your questions?
1. Were those three Patriarchs human at that time Jesus spoke? Yes or no.
2. Were they physical at that time that Jesus spoke? Yes or no.

You ask about whether they were human and they do not fit that condition.

To be considered human requires a combination of biological & cognitive states. A state of self-awareness. A corpse does not have these.

Those of us that have trusted in God for our salvation will be resurrected, made physically alive again. We will have a state of self-awareness.
1Jn_3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.

You did not ask if our spirit was unaware. Based on what we see in scripture the spirit is aware.

As we see in scripture the physical body may die but the spirit does not.
Act_7:59 They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!"

So your logic is flawed when you come to a soul sleep conclusion from what I wrote.

 

[Silverhair]

"To be considered human requires a combination of biological & cognitive states"

So this leaves you with two choices as far as Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are concerned: At the very moment of Jesus' "God of the living" comment those three were either had something "biological" or, if not, they were not human. There is no third option. This was part of Jesus' point to the Sadducees, whose conception of life and afterlife never went beyond the grossly material. Being "of the earth" they only speak of earthly things, John 3:31.

Did any of the Patriarchs have a cognitive state, self-awareness at the time of Christ Jesus?

You are confusing physical with spiritual. The human body dies the spirit does not.

Mat 22:31 "But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God:
Mat 22:32 'I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."

Those of us that are in Christ through faith may physically die but we are spiritually alive in Him.

Joh 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,
Joh 11:26 and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"