Some Whacky Issues on "Separation"

What is the big deal about Sunday, it is just another day.

 

Sunday is the day that Jesus rose from the dead. It will NEVER be 'just another day' -- at least not to me...

To answer Dr. Bob's original post, though, I think I can beat all you folks with one of the churches we have visited. Steve Green was being banned because the preacher did not agree with the words of one of his songs...

Just my personal opinion, but that is past legalistic and into bizarre.

About some of the John Denver and Carpenters' songs and such, I've noticed that how a Christian feels about them really depends on whether the person if more of a 'music' or a 'words' person. I tend to pay attention to the words, so I do find some of both Denver and the Carpenters quite offensive, actually! But some is wonderful. And the music is almost always lovely. I feel the same way about ABBA. The music is often outstanding, and some of the songs are wonderful ("Fernando," "Chiquatita," "Thank you for the Music", and, actually, many others) -- but some of the lyrics to some of the songs are downright pornographic or so amoral or suggestive that I refuse to even allow those bands to be played. Right now I'm hoping my son can help me burn a CD with only my favorites on it!

But Steve Green???? Oh well.....

 

Since when did Steve Green become the poster boy for Baptists, especially those who are of the fundamentalism movement (I think it is okay to mention this here)?

One of his songs, "Let the Walls Come Down", is just another attempt to rid theological lines that are drawn. It is quite humorous that this song could be on the same CD that has "We Believe".

It is not fear that we do not take down walls over theological truths.

Do you not agree?

 

Whether Sunday is "just another day" depends on the individual:

One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind (Romans 14:5).

 

Well I've NEVER seen any verses saying it's wrong to wear rimmed glasses, or colored shirts, and plenty of men in my church have beards or mustaches, but they aren't shaggy or anything! I think a person should dress modestly, but I don't see whats wrong with a preacher wearing a colored shirt. And I don't see anything wrong with wire rimmed glasses. Where'd some of this stuff get started?
Ya'll know I'm as conservative as most people can get, and I'm all for Bible convictions, and hard preaching, but some of that just dosn't make sense! It ought to be Bible based. Now I understand institutional convictions and those are fine too, but they shouldn't be taught as Bible convictions if they aren't there.
I heard one preacher preach against women wearing their hair up. Um, I do that quite often, but I'm definatly saved. And I'm not sure were he got that from. I mean if someone can point it out in the Bible, I'll be glad to change, but I'm living according to God's word.
But I wonder were some of these things started from?
~Abby

 

The Whackiest thing I ever heard was.....

"Pastors on the podium should never cross their legs, show the soles of their shoes, or tap their foot in time with the music."

 

Living as some stupid church dictates can be worse than that. Evidently time or location separated me from some of these really absurd ideas, but I did have grandparents who did not want playing cards in the house-- they did, of course, allow dominoes and played them often; and nobody I knew would go hunting on Sundays, but for some reason fishing was allowed.

In many of the things brought up here, Jehovah's Witnesses are closer to the truth in their stand against blood transfusions, since the scripture does say "abstain...from blood" (Acts 15:20); there are no verses telling how one's hair must be parted, the type of material for shoes, forbidding electronic devices, and other such nonsense. </font>[/QUOTE]I wish you would explain the "stupid church" comment, I account this type of rhetoric to the enemies of the church, and not those in allegiance. Maybe it was just a poor choice of words. Also I think it is wrong to speek evil of another's liberty in the Lord: note that liberty is NOT liberality! Big difference, huh?

In Christ??

Brother Ricky

 

Since when did Steve Green become the poster boy for Baptists, especially those who are of the fundamentalism movement (I think it is okay to mention this here)?

One of his songs, "Let the Walls Come Down", is just another attempt to rid theological lines that are drawn. It is quite humorous that this song could be on the same CD that has "We Believe".

It is not fear that we do not take down walls over theological truths.

Do you not agree? </font>[/QUOTE]You missed the point. Are you going to declare a Christian singer 'banned' to the congregation because you do not agree with the lyrics of a couple of songs he sings?

nevermind....

 

Would you (your church) ban someone from your church that taught evolution?

I know Steve Green does not believe in evolution. I am just saying that everyone draws lines. If someone chooses to practice separation from Steve Green over his choice of lyrics, then so be it. How is that ridiculous? That just means that they are taking a more narrow theological position. Maybe you could explain your point that I missed entirely.

I know how committed you are to fundamentalism so I value your input.

 

No one is perfect. You say some things that drive me up the wall in terms of your theology, and you know that. Nevertheless, I will not abandon either BaptistBoard because of that or refuse to read your posts because of that, for much that you have to say is, in my humble opinion, very good.

Jesus ate with tax collectors (far worse than most of what we associate with them now!) and other 'sinners.' He not only did NOT dissociate Himself, but He came down from heaven, abandoning all that for a time, for our sakes! So the general idea of separation in terms of legalisms is for the birds as far as I am concerned. Sinners have actually come into my home and eaten here! And I have actually accepted invitations into the homes of Mormons, Catholics, atheists, and others. That is not something to do with 'separation' as I understand it.

Instead, when I listen to some kids' music -- or even some of the music I used to sing along to, or even sing publicly when I was younger -- and I hear the words, I find myself realizing just how separate God really has made me now and I thank Him for that.

You see, the separation does not start with the legal outside rules; it starts with the inside new birth in Christ, when we become actually different creatures, preferring different things (if not all at once, then inexorably gradually). And we find ourselves separated by HIS choice and doing, not by ours.

Now we can mandate certain standards of modesty and respect for God in whatever position of authority God has given us, as pastor, teacher, parent, or whatever. But that can only be within the confines of our sphere of authority. For instance, as a teacher, my sphere was limited to class time. I could demand courtesy, quiet, and attention during class (and I did), but I could not do anything outside of class in these areas. The most I could do was report gross misdemeanors of behavior, drug use or dealing, etc. As a parent I had a larger sphere of authority, starting with total over a newborn and gradually diminishing to none by adulthood. Any respect I had earned up to that point was what was left.

The pastor who tries to substitute legalistic requirements or orders for the true change that happens inside a person, which produces the very separation which naturally results in changed ways, has it all upside down. He is whitewashing the tomb; cleaning the outside of the cup. Looking different is not the same as being different. You can ask your congregation to dress modestly, but the funny thing is that your words will not be for the born-again Christians. The Holy Spirit will already be leading them in that direction. Your words will be for those who will be attempting to look like the others who are of Christ, and thus perhaps encourage them to miss the way altogether. Would you kick a young lady out of your church who came in tight pants or a miniskirt? I can tell you for a fact that if she were shunned by the pastor or congregation, the result inside her would be anger, bitterness, mocking. However, when she is accepted for the person she is, she will find herself far more ready to conform to the modesty of the Christian even if she is not one! Respect her and she will respect you.

We are not called out by our pastors. We are called out by the Holy Spirit.

Personally, I would much rather listen to Steve Green sing about the walls coming down than I would listen to either nasty lyrics in some current hit or, on the other side, to a person whose words and actions are a virtual song of "Let's build more walls and separate ourselves more!"

I am separated out from the world because of God's work in my life, not because of some set of rules mandating what I listen to, look at, wear, say, or anything else. These things have changed because of God's work INside me, not because of anyone's work or efforts OUTside of me.

All that said, the kids were very aware that there was a line Mom drew across which they crossed at the risk of life and limb...

 

i ain't no genie that grants wishes, but I will explain this for you. A church that says wire-rimmed glasses are 'evil' is stupid. A church that says the preacher must not wear a colored shirt is stupid. A church that tells somebody he can't part his hair on the right side of his head is stupid. Does these examples begin to grant your little wish?

 

The setting of artificial standards is so prevalent in our churches today (perhaps as an over-reaction to the general moral laxity of the world) that I have come to expect it as unavoidable. It used to bother me, since legalism is so clearly denounced in the New Testament, but now I try to learn from it. Sadly, some Christians feel it is their duty to steal your joy, and they seem completely unaware of the pain they cause. I just try not to imitate their example.

 

i ain't no genie that grants wishes, but I will explain this for you. A church that says wire-rimmed glasses are 'evil' is stupid. A church that says the preacher must not wear a colored shirt is stupid. A church that tells somebody he can't part his hair on the right side of his head is stupid. Does these examples begin to grant your little wish? </font>[/QUOTE]I know what you meant, but I feel it was a poor choice of words, you are certainly entitled to an opinion.

I am certain that what everyone is denouncing as "legalistic" standards set forth by the pastor of "any" church, ("stupid" or not), are nothing more than preferences.

Our previous pastor used to say "wallermelons", I prefer to eat watermelon, though as a kid, (and some years later) I have been known to sort of "waller" in them.

The association factor really does need to be considered when you "nit and pick" over what a preacher says. Remember, if the preacher can get you riled a little bit, he can get the point across a little more effectively. You'll pay closer attention to what he is saying so as to "nit and pick" something else out, but when it hits home and is the truth, it gives the Holy Ghost a chance to get past that "lukewarmness". Also it is getting those "sincere milk" Christians to mature in the Lord a little bit.

I recommend all to listen a little closer to what the man of God is saying, and quit expecting to get your ears tickled, some of us preachers have a "feather" just for that occaision, it's called a "sword"!

I know perfectly well, some preachers with that "zeal" and that wanting to "fit in", causes much of the stir about certain things, but be mature, less offended, learn to laugh at the absurdity and smile for a change. It takes a lot less muscles to smile than it does to frown, even for you "genies" pulling a rabbit out of your hats! Oh , that is Rocky and Bullwinkle, sorry!

I personally don't wear colored shirts when I preach, but I will wear shortsleeves, (I am rather hairy, and I sweat easily), but I do know preachers that won't let you in their pulpit unless you've got on a longsleeve white shirt with a "tee-shirt", not a tank top type tee, on up under your shirt. Same goes for ties, some won't let you preach in their pulpit w/o a tie on, and even some type of ties, but do respect the pastor's wishes.

As a preacher, I'm looking for a place to preach, not running with a crowd. If it means conforming to what another prefers to be able to preach in their pulpit, then so, but now I suppose some will call me a comprimiser now. Be careful. I may just have a few standards that you won't like very well, ("genies" is one of them I won't tolerate!) but they're my standards, God gave them to me. I feel for the most part they are for everyone on how to treat one another, and I won't back down!

I've heard some of the best preaching by those, who while they're praying, before the message, pull off their coat and tie and preach like a wild man! Brother Elliot Smith in N.C., is one of them that comes to mind. He preached a message at Brother Gary Halls' in Madisonville, Kentucky, Island Ford Baptist Church, entitled: "He's Still God!", shoulda been there, it was G R E A T!

I LIKE PREACHING! It doesn't bother me!

Look into where Paul deals with the "weaker" brethren, as to not offend him in his stand. Consider thyself, judge thy motive, doing thy best to not offend the weaker. No, I am not into "hurting" anyone, but just like the surgeon uses a scalpel, (with anesthesia of course), that is tendereness, it's my duty to deliver the message that will allow the Spirit of God to remove the dross from the silver in the refiner's fire. Think, Wink, but don't blink! Just give me that Bible when you preach, leave your opinions back at the house where you conjured them up at.

Ah, what do you know? You're probably a liberal So. Baptist, or something of the like. (No offence SBC's, I've even heard some of ya'll really pin the ears back and P R E A C H!!)

In the Love of Christ, Peace and grace be multiplied to you,

Brother Ricky

 

Bro. Ricky, either you've not been involved with the type of legalism that some here have, or you are in the midst of it and don't recognize it. I mean no offense at all, but don't agree with several things you are putting across here:

"I am certain that what everyone is denouncing as "legalistic" standards set forth by the pastor of "any" church, ("stupid" or not), are nothing more than preferences."

How can you be 'certain' of this? Were you at the churches that others have been and seen what happened or was taught there? Did you see the attitudes of the people and preachers there? Did you feel the sting of rejection because they acted like if you didn't have their 'standards' that you were not a Christian, or were less of one? Did you feel the prideful hatefulness shown to you, openly, and condoned by the pastor, because you dared to go against scripture twisting, and leading people astray? Are you really certain that others are just making this up, because we want a preacher to tickle our ears?

"...but be mature, less offended, learn to laugh at the absurdity and smile for a change."

I will ALWAYS be offended, when a preacher has so little respect for God's Word, that he misuses it when it suits him and his goals. I see nothing to laugh about there. It is NOT mature, to go along with false teaching, hateful attitudes, and lack of compassion.

"...nit and pick" over what a preacher says."

The Bereans 'nitpicked', so to speak, and were praised for doing it.

"Remember, if the preacher can get you riled a little bit, he can get the point across a little more effectively"

The preacher who got me 'riled', was very effectively raising his voice, stressing his points, pounding the pulpit, and putting on a very good show - exactly at the time he was TWISTING a scripture. The NON 'nitpickers' are the ones who sat there, never noticing the difference.

"Ah, what do you know? You're probably a liberal So. Baptist, or something of the like. (No offence SBC's, I've even heard some of ya'll really pin the ears back and P R E A C H!!)"

As far as the first part of that comment, I don't think there was any call for that. Even in jest - if it was. We are attending a SBC right now, and guess who the preacher reminds my husband of? John, crying in the wilderness. And, he's biblical and doesn't twist scriptures, and has compassion to-boot! He takes his suit coat off, and in hot weather, has a ... gasp ... short sleeved shirt on! I never asked him if he wore a full tee shirt underneath or not. As you referred to, not all SBC's are liberal, just as not all IFB's are legalistic.

Bro. Ricky, I admire your zeal. I sincerely do. Please be careful though, and don't get caught up in what others have been talking about here. We're not just making this up, I promise. It makes me sick inside, still, to know that there are people who are under this legalism bondage. It really does exist, just like it always has, and I think it's becoming more and more prevalent.

 

Rick --

Well, I was called into the ministry, but I turned my
back on the call. (It was my mother who did the
calling, not our God, so I feel justified.)

But if I were a pastor, and I could not find enough
in the Bible and started teaching my own opinions
as doctrine and standards, I would expect people
to rebel. No pastor has any right or calling to
teach as either doctrine or standard his own
opinions. When peple are busy living up to the
Word our God gave us, they wil be too busy to
try to improve on His word with their own little
ideas.

 

Qoute from "rsr" &gt;&gt;I see there is already a division between us; I always wear long-sleeve shirts to church and to work (except when a polo shirt is called for because I'm traveling.) Predominantly white, but occasionally blue or gray. Do you really consider it a virtue to wear a short-sleeve shirt? Talk about man-made virtues.&lt;&lt;

If you don't believe it virtuous to wear short sleeves, then don't you ever let anyone see you roll up your sleeves to keep from getting them soiled! Those fore arms are quite lude and cause lascivious behaviour!

Sorry, but I don't divide over preferences, rsr, so you must be the one causing the division. (Receive thy mark, if no attempt to reconcile those remarks)
When it comes to an issue of morality though, I'll simply bow out and depart, not bow up and re-pine!

All I've said is "SOME" preachers have certain preferences, and rightly so, when it comes to their pulpit. The Lord has placed them in the position as the "watchman" on the wall.

I think the real problem everyone is having with what they call legalistic preaching is more related to lordship rather than leadership. It becomes legalism when it is the lording over God's inheritance, verses true leadership for that particular and local assembly.

I suggest to all, that you learn the BIG difference between "preferences" and convictions.
I don't have but a couple of real convictions: if you mess with my wife or kids, I'll kill you dead!
We could argue over "Thou shalt not kill" all day and night, but DON"T mess with my family! BUT! I do have some preferences. The difference between the two is convictions; I'm willing to die for, preferences; are only a matter of choice as I feel led by the Lord as being the leader of a congregation, NOT lord over them mind you!

I understand the reasoning over much of what is refered to as legalism. It's like what many refer to as rock'n'roll, it's not that it is all bad, but until one can discern what is evil and what may only be somewhat deceptive in it's philosophical reasoning, all of rock'n'roll should be avoided. It is the most deceptive tool of satan. Just as The Carpenters for the most part are not evil in the slightest, or John Denver for that matter, but it is by association that many recommend to avoid that particular type of music. Personally I love to hear Karen and Tim Carpenter, much of John Denver. Watchout now! I even like a little Credence Clearwater Revival to some extent, Rolling Stones? GET REAL!

But I'd much rather , (prefer) Gospel music sung by those local church members with the Lord all over them, strike the "Diesel Sniffers" I don't care how much everyone else likes them, though I do listen to many, I wouldn't go to hear any of them during my local church time. I might go to a local singing near by, but I'm not a "groupie" for any of the "big" groups.

Please don't think I don't understand what it is you've run across, I know those type all too well. Talk about getting hurt though, I've been hurt by ones who accused me of being like them, much more often than those who you are talking about.

Just for example, a "lady", ( heifer, well I shouldn't say that, I don't believe you ought to go around insulting cattle), would run every other woman in the church for wearing britches. I've been to their house and caught her off guard, (not intentionally) in her sweat pants. (talk about embarassment!) This same "lady"'s son and daughter were in their garage with my son and daughter with a doll, (Barbie type), with it's "panties" pulled down, when I walked into the garage to call them inside to eat, you should have seen the look on their boys face, that little girl of theirs immediately starting ranting and raving that what I saw wasn't what I thought, though I haven't even said a word to either of them yet! But the real sad thing was when I told their parents what I had seen, the parents agreed to talk with them, and it wouldn't happen again. But THEN! all of a sudden, the whispers began, we started running into much opposition from other friends of ours, no doubt because of the real friends told us what was being said about the incident, you can only imagine. But you would think I wouldn't have had any more "fellowship" with those type. Sorry, again, I'm not that divisive, but I am somewhat "wise as a serpent , but harmless as a dove", ever heard of that?

So let's take that "division" you said we have to Calvary. I don't think it's something that we should divide over, but I do believe you are misunderstanding what I have said, maybe this will have cleared that up for you and everyone else.

IN Christ!

Brother Ricky

 

Hi, Ally, PLease don't misunderstand, I do know perfectly well what you have been through. I have learned much from those who make their standards their god, and expect everyone else to bow down to it. God help their wretched souls! But I have learned to take them with a grain of salt and preach the devil out of them for acting the way they do!

I looked one of them right in the eyes, ( he being the youth leader at the time), and preached on arrogance for about 45 minutes, but not the entire message, but he knew exactly who was included in the message. What really tickled me, not ticked me off, was the very next time he led the youth choir, he announced to the congregation he wasn't arrogant. I sort of said out loud, loud enough,"That sure was arrogant of you to say that. Brother!" Laughing all the while. But the real disappointment was when I taught the teen SS class and tried to convinve them he really did love them, (looked as if they would throw-up!).

I did my best to convince them he was just a preacher trying to help them along the way. You know though, he has since apologized to them and made a distinguishable change in his attitude as a result! (Missionary to S. Dakota now) Well, Praise the Good Lord! I'm not any better than anyone, "chief" amongst sinners if you ask me.

In Christ,

Brother Ricky

 

I can only answer you with Hebrews 13:

1 Let brotherly love continue.
2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.
3 Remember them that are in bonds, as bound with them; and them which suffer adversity, as being yourselves also in the body.
4 Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.
5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
6 So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.


**7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.**

8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.


**9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.**

10 We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.
11 For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.
12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.


**13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.**


14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.
15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.


**16 But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.
17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you. **


****


19 But I beseech you the rather to do this, that I may be restored to you the sooner.
20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
22 And I beseech you, brethren, suffer the word of exhortation: for I have written a letter unto you in few words.
23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty; with whom, if he come shortly, I will see you.
24 Salute all them that have the rule over you, and all the saints. They of Italy salute you.
25 Grace be with you all. Amen.


Unless one has been given the heart of a pastor, you couldn't possibly understand. The "watchman" on the wall can see things those in the battle below can't see coming right at them. It's not merely discernment, but more of what the Lord allows the man of God to see as he engages in the battle for the Lord. Remember , the pastor is the undershepherd of The Shepherd, and is keeping watch over your souls, and will give account also to the Lord .

Also, until some one comes right out and asks me, how is it so many seem to "know" what I believe? Or how I stand? I have noticed some presumptuous "sins" in this particular area, even to the point of being called "absurd" in my thinking. Oh, well, the question is not whether or not I can lead, but whether or not one can follow as I am led of the Lord.

I know this perfectly well, just as much there are those who are too legalistic for anyone to follow, ( you can't be considerd following a man who is tugging on your chains of bondage), there are those who jump and dodge and slip-slide away from everything that anyone might be able to follow, like trying to follow a rabbit through a briar patch.

I've learned to stand alone when everyone else is set in array against what is right. You might ask how it is I know what is right? Well, until you pastor, (and I know you aren't qualified, Abiyah), you couldn't possibly understand.

Don't let the passing evanagelist be your pastor, and make sure you pray for the man of God who is your pastor, no matter what your opinion may be, and remember that the Word of God is of no private interpetation, so be careful not to proclaim yours as the only one.


In Christ,
Brother Ricky