Some Who have Total Depravity Exhibit the Presence and Truth of their Total Depravity when their Flesh Believes False Teachings.

[Alan Dale Gross]

Positively, total depravity means that the corruption has extended to all aspects of man’s nature, to his entire being; and total depravity means that because of that corruption there is nothing man can do to merit saving favor with God.”

Total Depravity, then, may easily be determined to be the root cause behind the denial of Total Depravity, as exhibited in the Arminian techniques mentioned and which follow, below.

“Spiritual death in the Bible means fallen people are totally separated from God, not completely obliterated by Him. They lack spiritual life, but they’re still humans with all their God-given faculties. Isaiah put it this way: ‘Your iniquities have separated you from your God’ (59:2). In brief, it does not mean a total destruction of all ability to hear and respond to God but a complete separation of the whole person from God.”

This is just a completely self-contradictory attempt at deception, by manipulating the truth of the subject matter, using word games, to bait and switch the unaware.

“Spiritual death in the Bible means fallen people are totally separated from God, not completely obliterated (killed or put to death) by Him."

That sounds O.K., until that is added to, and the idea is made that "they’re still humans with all their God-given faculties", as if "it does not mean a total destruction of all ability to hear and respond to God", when THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT GOD SAYS EVERYWHERE IN THE BIBLE IT MEANS.

"They lack spiritual life, but they’re still humans with all their God-given faculties (and all of mankind's human God-giving faculties include the Biblical fact that they are Totally Depraved and morally and Spiritual bankrupt, blind, and dead to God WHO IS SPIRIT and THEY, THEREFORE, HAVE NO WAY OR PRAYER OF COMMUNICATING OR RELATING TO HIM, IN HIS REALM, THE SPIRIT REALM.)

"In brief, it does not mean a total destruction (killed or put to death) of all ability to hear and respond to God but a complete (total destruction/killed or put to death) separation of the whole person from God.”

YES, TOTAL DEPRAVITY DOES MEAN "a total destruction" (killed or put to death) "of all ability to hear and respond to God", because TOTAL DEPRAVITY IS "a complete" (total destruction/killed or put to death) "separation of the whole person from God.”

it does not mean a total destruction of all ability to hear and respond to God but a complete separation of the whole person from God.”

+1 PLUS -1 DOES NOT EQUAL 2.

Has total inability been hijacked and defined stringently by modern Calvinism?

Google "AI Overview"

"Yes, Arminians affirm the doctrine of total depravity, believing that fallen humanity is fundamentally corrupt and unable to respond to God's call for salvation without divine intervention.

"The key difference between Arminians and Calvinists is that Arminians also believe in prevenient grace, a grace extended to all people that counteracts total depravity and enables the human will to cooperate with God and respond to salvation."

And they are absolutely wrong, as they have no Bible verses that actually teach such a thing.

"Arminian View of Total Depravity:

• "Inherent Corruption:
  Arminians believe that the Fall of Adam resulted in a sin-stained nature that affects every part of a person, making them inherently bent toward sin.
  
  
• • Inability to Save Oneself:
    This depravity means humans cannot save themselves, merit God's favor, or even choose to believe in the gospel on their own, according to strangerthansf.com.
    

The Role of Prevenient Grace:

• • Enabling Grace:
    God's prevenient grace is a universal, enabling grace that restores a measure of free will, allowing people to respond to the offer of salvation. *
    
  • Freedom to Respond:
    This grace makes a person capable of choosing to accept or resist God's call, leading to a “freed will” that can freely respond to the gospel, as stated on Soteriology 101.
    
  • God's Initiative:
    While humanity is depraved, God must take the initial initiative to provide this grace for anyone to be saved, according to arminiantheologyblog.wordpress.com.
    

Contrast with Calvinism:

• • Irresistible Grace vs. Resistible Grace:
    The core disagreement lies in what happens after prevenient grace. Calvinists believe God's grace is irresistible, while Arminians believe God's grace is resistible.
    
  • Spiritual Death:
    While both traditions affirm a state of spiritual death, Arminians see it as a state of condemnation that prevenient grace can overcome to allow a choice, whereas for Calvinists, this spiritual death is a complete inability that only God's specific, irresistible regeneration can conquer.
    

• Dive deeper with AI.https://www.google.com/search?q=do+...dnw6Nyx7SktPOaFqY6PmfCMGdt7UaqsIVLtWA&csuir=1
  
  
• *Which is a 'technique' more than a 'System of Belief, which makes a conversion of their so-called 'belief' in Total Depravity into one more Class-'A', A-Number-One, First-rate, straightforward, pure, bona fide, genuine, in-stage heresy, in its entirety.

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

having turned in mind and heart towards an inferior good, he transgressed the command given to him for life. By this foul deed, he precipitated himself from that noble and elevated condition into a state of the deepest infelicity, which is under the dominion of sin.

The problem is that regardless of what he or any of his followers say about how they wholeheartedly believe in Total Depravity, they 100% go about NEGATING Total Depravity with the devisive invention and nefarious fabrication that something Jesus Accomplished in His Perfectly Satisfying the Demands of God's Justice for sin, in His Sacrificial Death was supposed to have now started ignoring the subject of sinners Offending a Thrice Holy God.

As being Natuarally Born sinners, who then have practiced sin because of the emnity they have toward God, and try to say all they have to do is pretend Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection put them in the same position as Adam, who was able to make a decision one way or anyother, whether they are going to Heaven when they die.

And then they 'hope' they will go the Heaven, when the issue of their sin and what God Must Provide as a Remedy for their sin has been overlooked, ignored, and despised.

In this state, the free will of man towards the true good is not only wounded, maimed, infirm, bent, and weakened; but it is also imprisoned, destroyed, and lost. And its powers are not only debilitated and useless unless they be assisted by grace, but it has no powers whatever except such as are excited by Divine grace.

It's perfectly acceptable to be correct, provided no new axioms are added or taken away from the Scripture Revelation regarding the Salvation of those Totally Depraved souls.

St. Augustine, after having diligently meditated upon each word in this passage, speaks thus: ‘Christ does not say, without me ye can do but Little; neither does He say, without me ye can do any Arduous Thing, nor without me ye can do it with difficulty. But he says, without me ye can do Nothing! Nor does he say, without me ye cannot complete any thing; but without me ye can do Nothing.’

Nothing. Nothing Divine. Nothing. Ever. On their own. Under any circumstances, real or imagined.

Yet none of these acts could he do, except through the assistance of Divine Grace. But in his lapsed and sinful state, man is not capable, of and by himself, either to think, to will, or to do that which is really good; but it is necessary for him to be regenerated and renewed in his intellect, affections or will, and in all his powers, by God in Christ through the Holy Spirit, that he may be qualified rightly to understand, esteem, consider, will, and perform whatever is truly good.

Truly, Spiritually, Biblically correct, of course.

“MAN does not have saving faith of himself, nor out of the powers of his free will, since in the state of sin he is able of himself and by himself neither to think, will, or do any good (which would indeed to be saving good, the most prominent of which is saving faith).

There is none good.

It is necessary therefore that by God in Christ through His Holy Spirit he be regenerated and renewed in intellect, affections, will, and in all his powers, so that he might be able to understand, reflect upon, will and carry out the good things which pertain to salvation.

Amen.

We hold, however, that the grace of God is not only the beginning but also the progression and the completion of every good, so much so that even the regenerate himself is unable to think, will, or do the good, or to resist any temptations to evil, apart from that preceding or prevenient, awakening, following and cooperating grace.

Jesus is the First and the Last, the Alpha and Omega, the Author and Finisher of our Faith.

Hence all good works and actions which anyone by cogitation is able to comprehend are to be ascribed to the grace of God… The will in the fallen state, before calling, does not have the power and the freedom to will any saving good.”

That is why the Quickening Power of God upon the morally dead sinner who is lost is called Irresistible Grace by an Effectual Calling, because God Transforms the blind sinner from Darkness to Light and Grants them Repentance to now love the Law and Enables them to put the Safekeeping of their Eternal soul into the Care of their Savior, Jesus Christ, in the New Birth.

“ARMINIANS together with Calvinists affirm total depravity because of the fall of humanity in Adam and its inherited consequence of a corrupted nature in bondage to sin.

Then, Arminians utterly abandon that teaching in exchange for adopting the same paganism as the rest of the lost world holds, by saying the Total Depravity a sinner possesses doesn't matter, in a blatant denial of Revealed Scripture that they say they have just learned.

They figure if they are good enough, they can just sing "All is Well with My Soul" and wait to tell God to move over, because they are coming into His Heaven when they die, because they desided to, not because they were absolutely helpless and without strenth when God had Predestinated that they had a Surity Who He had Provided for them, as a Lamb Slain before the Foundation of the World, Who died in their Place, personally, for their personal sins, for which they deserved an Eternal Torment in the Lake of Hellfire and Brimstone.

The concept of total depravity does not mean (1) that depraved people cannot or do not perform actions that are good in either man’s or God’s sight. But no such action can gain favor with God for salvation.

There are things which are right and proper to do, outwardly, that the lost man may do which appear 'good' to other people, experimentally, physically, in the flesh, but nothing that is done without Faith and a Heart of Love toward Jesus is seen right or 'good', morally or Spiritually by God, because they are still done with emnity remaining in their heart of hearts and soul, and are nothing more than more sin against God's Perfect Divine Holiness.

(2) that fallen man has no conscience which judges between good and evil for him. But that conscience has been affected by the fall so that it cannot be a safe and reliable guide.

True. They are not Partakers of the Divine Nature and do not have a Divine Spirit and Presence within their mortal being, with which to perform SPIRITUALLY WROUGHT, DIVINE Actions, as in John 3:21;

"But he that doeth Truth cometh to the Light,
that his deeds may be made Manifest, that they are Wrought in God..."

Neither does it mean (3) that people indulge in every form of sin or in any sin to the greatest extent possible.

Yep.

 

[Dave...]

Total Depravity, then, may easily be determined to be the root cause behind the denial of Total Depravity, as exhibited in the Arminian techniques mentioned and which follow, below.

Hi Alan

Keep in mind that my point was to show that Arminians and Calvinist both believe in total depravity. That the traditional debates solve nothing. It's not necessarily what I believe.

The problem that I have with your understanding in this matter of mans depravity, Alan, is that the Scripture that you use to prove your side of things actually doesn't prove it. Tit for tat, rinse, boast and repeat will solve nothing, right? Both sides need to actually address the Scripture that the other is offering as proof of their understanding of things and give an alternate explanation. I have yet to see you do that. While at the same time you criticize people who actually take the time to explain why they believe that your understanding of Scripture in this matter is in error.

Once again, "Author and Finisher" of ones faith begins when the life begins, in Christ, by the Spirit. That begins with the indwelling, which is always a result of faith. A failure to recognize this Biblical truth along with the uniqueness of the transition that took place from the OT to the NT (where many of your proof texts come from), leaves your understanding lacking context and in error. The Bible is the root cause of my denial of total depravity. Alan, for the most part, I agree with most your understanding of all your life and death passages. I just don't agree with the context that you use them in.

"They lack spiritual life, but they’re still humans with all their God-given faculties (and all of mankind's human God-giving faculties include the Biblical fact that they are Totally Depraved and morally and Spiritual bankrupt, blind, and dead to God WHO IS SPIRIT and THEY, THEREFORE, HAVE NO WAY OR PRAYER OF COMMUNICATING OR RELATING TO HIM, IN HIS REALM, THE SPIRIT REALM.)

"In brief, it does not mean a total destruction (killed or put to death) of all ability to hear and respond to God but a complete (total destruction/killed or put to death) separation of the whole person from God.”

YES, TOTAL DEPRAVITY DOES MEAN "a total destruction" (killed or put to death) "of all ability to hear and respond to God", because TOTAL DEPRAVITY IS "a complete" (total destruction/killed or put to death) "separation of the whole person from God.”


+1 PLUS -1 DOES NOT EQUAL 2.

Alan, here's 1+1 straight from Paul (Gal. 3:2-3). Did you receive the Holy Spirit from hearing in faith, or the works of the Law?

Remember that life that you speak of begins as a result of receiving the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, which is a result of faith. Before that we ARE dead. Faith, then Spirit, then life in Christ. It's THAT life (called faith) in Christ that is Authored and Finished by Christ. The idea that the Spirit enters a person and life begins before they come to their initial faith is actually hostile to clear Biblical teaching and the Gospel itself, believe and be saved. You'll need to find another way to make that initial faith happen. Like the OT believers who were not indwelt or born again, yet they believed. How did that happen? They didn't have the indwelling, nor could they be in Christ.

Google "AI Overview"

"Yes, Arminians affirm the doctrine of total depravity, believing that fallen humanity is fundamentally corrupt and unable to respond to God's call for salvation without divine intervention.

If it's not total depravity, then what is the point of contention? .......

"The key difference between Arminians and Calvinists is that Arminians also believe in prevenient grace, a grace extended to all people that counteracts total depravity and enables the human will to cooperate with God and respond to salvation."

To believe in prevenient grace, or not, is a different issue than believing in total depravity or not. Would you agree?