SOME WILL FALL AWAY FROM THE FAITH

[Van]

#2 is our problem and it deals with the problem of sin AFTER salvation.

Paul deals with the remedy to this problem, you are ignoring it, seems to me.

Why waste time addressing my problems, please address the topic.

Did you deny we are made spiritually perfect when we are born anew? Nope, you left your position in limbo. We cannot make progress if all we get is taint so and seldom what you believe is so.

 

[Silverhair]

In the parable of the sower, everyone, every soil, no matter its condition...receives the seed. Every soil except one, we see life emerge and a sprout/plant grows. We both seem to agree that soil #2 was never saved, yet, it is said of soil #2 that it "receive the word with joy" and "believed". In other words, there was some light and life within this soil if only for a little bit.

I agree that we need to draw from the whole word of God if we are to come to a right understanding of the message. My dad use to say "there are two sides to an argument but the truth usually lies in the middle".

If you recall I said they had a head faith not a heart faith. They had trusted in God for their salvation but they had not matured as Paul would have said. We can find this type of Christian in many churches. Some would call them pew sitters. They show up but are not really engaged.

With soil #2 we see they believed, not thought about it, but believed. So it indicates to me that they were abiding in Christ. If one is abiding in Christ they are saved. God does not save based on the bell curve. You either are saved or you are not, growth is a different matter.

As we know not all those that have trusted in God will mature at the same rate or to the same level. We see this in Hebrews 5:12-14. All can grow but not all will grow.

I note in referring to soil #2 you said this "was for a short time attached to the vine (when the seed sprouted) but did not "remain" to then become fruitful and saved." That sounds like you think salvation is works based?

What I have said would apply to soil #3 as well. The text to me is clear that we are speaking of saved individuals again. They are growing but then allow the worries of the world to overcome them and turn away.

My question is why would Jesus speak of three types of unsaved individuals? You are either saved or lost.

I look forward to your reply.

 

[Charlie24]

Why waste time addressing my problems, please address the topic.

Did you deny we are made spiritually perfect when we are born anew? Nope, you left your position in limbo. We cannot make progress if all we get is taint so and seldom what you believe is so.

We sin body, soul and spirit after salvation. Our salvation is not complete until the resurrection.

We have a down-payment on the promise of our salvation by being given the indwelling Holy Spirit.

We can have eternal security right now, but that depends on maintaining the faith that saved us to the end of our lives or until He comes.

 

[Charlie24]

We sin body, soul and spirit after salvation. Our salvation is not complete until the resurrection.

We have a down-payment on the promise of our salvation by being given the indwelling Holy Spirit.

We can have eternal security right now, but that depends on maintaining the faith that saved us to the end of our lives or until He comes.

Christ set us free from the bondage of sin that enslaved depraved man.

We now have access to the very Throne of God by grace through faith.

But the nature of sin has not been removed, that's where the struggle comes in, the spiritual warfare to keep our faith that Satan wants to take.

The battle we face is the good fight of faith, keeping our faith to the end.

 

[Silverhair]

Why waste time addressing my problems, please address the topic.

Did you deny we are made spiritually perfect when we are born anew? Nope, you left your position in limbo. We cannot make progress if all we get is taint so and seldom what you believe is so.

That sounds a lot like you believe in sinless perfection @Van.

What do you say about
1Jn 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

 

[Van]

We sin body, soul and spirit after salvation. Our salvation is not complete until the resurrection.

We have a down-payment on the promise of our salvation by being given the indwelling Holy Spirit.

We can have eternal security right now, but that depends on maintaining the faith that saved us to the end of our lives or until He comes.

Good Grief! If our spirit sin's it is not perfect, and therefore we have not been made spiritually perfect. If that is your position, which again you have not clearly stated, your view is unbiblical nonsense.

Just a simple question, Sir, how were we made alive from our spiritually dead condition, or why are we "in Christ" (immersed within Christ) if we are spiritually unholy. How were we indwelt with the Holy Spirit if we are spiritually unholy.

How do you square Hebrews 12:23, with your claim our spirit's have yet to be made perfect?

 

[Charlie24]

Good Grief! If our spirit sin's it is not perfect, and therefore we have not been made spiritually perfect. If that is your position, which again you have not clearly stated, your view is unbiblical nonsense.

Just a simple question, Sir, how were we made alive from our spiritually dead condition, or why are we "in Christ" (immersed within Christ) if we are spiritually unholy. How were we indwelt with the Holy Spirit if we are spiritually unholy.

How do you square Hebrews 12:23, with your claim our spirit's have yet to be made perfect?

We are just men in the sight of God being in Christ Jesus. God accepts nothing on the part of sinful man, He accepts only Christ and believing man is in Christ. We are not perfect by any means after salvation, but being In Christ we are perfect by grace through faith in the sight of the Father.

That's why our sins are not counted against us, they are forgiven but that is not a license to sin.

We are just and perfectly justified in the sight of God by grace through faith in Christ.

 

[Silverhair]

Good Grief! If our spirit sin's it is not perfect, and therefore we have not been made spiritually perfect. If that is your position, which again you have not clearly stated, your view is unbiblical nonsense.

Just a simple question, Sir, how were we made alive from our spiritually dead condition, or why are we "in Christ" (immersed within Christ) if we are spiritually unholy. How were we indwelt with the Holy Spirit if we are spiritually unholy.

How do you square Hebrews 12:23, with your claim our spirit's have yet to be made perfect?

@Van we have the Holy Spirit dwelling within us but we still have our own spirit that as Paul said is at war within us.

Rom 7:18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
Rom 7:20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

 

[Van]

That sounds a lot like you believe in sinless perfection @Van.

What do you say about
1Jn 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

I have addressed this dozens of times! Have you NOT read the book of 1 John?

As born anew believers, do we not have sinful thoughts ad do we not do sinful things? Of course we do. Of course we are aware of them. Of course if we are not aware of them, we are NOT born anew! So if that is true, and it is, what is the meaning of 1 John 3:9?

The meaning is not blowing in the wind folks, once born anew, although we still think and do "sinful things" they are not credited as sin, therefore having been made perfect, we do not sin spiritually, our human spirit remains sinless, perfect.

 

[37818]

One either affirms or denies the promise of Jeremiah 31:31-34, Hebrews 8:12, . . . their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

 

[Van]

We are just men in the sight of God being in Christ Jesus. God accepts nothing on the part of sinful man, He accepts only Christ and believing man is in Christ. We are not perfect by any means after salvation, but being In Christ we are perfect by grace through faith in the sight of the Father.

That's why our sins are not counted against us, they are forgiven but that is not a license to sin.

We are just and perfectly justified in the sight of God by grace through faith in Christ.

Your answer avoided the question.

I say, and scripture clearly teaches, we have been, if born anew, made perfect. And we remain spiritually perfect even if we think or do "sinful things." This is not rocket science.

 

[Van]

Folks, the false teachers who claim a born anew believer can cause loss of salvation must nullify verse after verse after verse. It is hogwash.

Imagine the human power to nullify the blood of the Lamb.

Imagine the human power claimed to be able to snatch us our of His hand.

Imagine the human power to rid a child of God of their indwelt Spirit, which God claimed would be with us forever.

 

[37818]

.

Your answer avoided the question.

I say, and scripture clearly teaches, we have been, if born anew, made perfect. And we remain spiritually perfect even if we think or do "sinful things." This is not rocket science.

Ephesians 4:7-8, But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

 

[Van]

We did NOT put ourselves into Christ and we can NOT put ourselves out of Christ. God put us into Christ. And God says He will NOT cast us out.

 

[Charlie24]

Your answer avoided the question.

I say, and scripture clearly teaches, we have been, if born anew, made perfect. And we remain spiritually perfect even if we think or do "sinful things." This is not rocket science.

No it's not rocket science.

Our spirit is the means of contact for God, Spirit to spirit. It's how we discern the truth of God, or choose not to.

It's all about the free will of man, but you believe whatever you like.

 

[37818]

It's all about the free will of man, . . . .

Salvation, John 1:12-13, But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

 

[Charlie24]

Salvation, John 1:12-13, But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

I don't know exactly what John 1:12-13 means to you, it's not clear, but I know what it means to me.

To as many that received Him, meaning they chose to believe, He gave them the power to be His children.

"Not of blood" meaning salvation is not by the natural birth as the Jews believed.

"Nor of the will of the flesh" meaning salvation cannot be earned by the works of the flesh.

"Nor of the will of man" meaning man has nothing to do with his salvation, it's all of God.

But that takes us back to receiving Him, believing Him of our own free will.

 

[37818]

I don't know exactly what John 1:12-13 means to you, it's not clear, but I know what it means to me.

To as many that received Him, meaning they chose to believe, He gave them the power to be His children.

"Not of blood" meaning salvation is not by the natural birth as the Jews believed.

"Nor of the will of the flesh" meaning salvation cannot be earned by the works of the flesh.

"Nor of the will of man" meaning man has nothing to do with his salvation, it's all of God.

But that takes us back to receiving Him, believing Him of our own free will.

Yes, one's free will precedes receiving Christ. Once under God's grace, God's grace superceds our works. Which would condemn us.

 

[Silverhair]

I have addressed this dozens of times! Have you NOT read the book of 1 John?

As born anew believers, do we not have sinful thoughts ad do we not do sinful things? Of course we do. Of course we are aware of them. Of course if we are not aware of them, we are NOT born anew! So if that is true, and it is, what is the meaning of 1 John 3:9?

The meaning is not blowing in the wind folks, once born anew, although we still think and do "sinful things" they are not credited as sin, therefore having been made perfect, we do not sin spiritually, our human spirit remains sinless, perfect.

You are claiming sinless perfection Van. That is not biblical.

But you are not the first person that I have had to deal with that thought as you do.

"Fellowship with God requires that we acknowledge the truth concerning ourselves. For instance, to deny that we have a sinful nature means self-deception and untruthfulness." BBC

"...Christians, though certainly not “walking in darkness,” yet have sinful tendencies in themselves: sensuous impulses, non-spiritual inclinations, lack of self-knowledge, a lowered standard, principles and views borrowed partly from the world, wavering of will, and hence even graver faults. Not to admit this would be to mislead ourselves..."
Ellicott

 

[37818]

Romans 4:5, But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.