SOME WILL FALL AWAY FROM THE FAITH

[Charlie24]

Romans 4:5, But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Paul preached justification by faith some 4000 years after it was introduced with Abraham before the Law.

Gen 15:6
"And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness."

 

[Van]

You are claiming sinless perfection Van. That is not biblical.

But you are not the first person that I have had to deal with that thought as you do.

"Fellowship with God requires that we acknowledge the truth concerning ourselves. For instance, to deny that we have a sinful nature means self-deception and untruthfulness." BBC

"...Christians, though certainly not “walking in darkness,” yet have sinful tendencies in themselves: sensuous impulses, non-spiritual inclinations, lack of self-knowledge, a lowered standard, principles and views borrowed partly from the world, wavering of will, and hence even graver faults. Not to admit this would be to mislead ourselves..."
Ellicott

Why do you make false claims. Did I say or suggest a born anew believer is "sinless perfection?" Nope. I said our born anew human spirit has been made "perfect." I cited the verse that said exactly that.

Did I say or suggest we do not think and do "sinful things" as a result of our "Old Man?" Yes, so for you to suggest I did not is yet another false claim.

 

[Silverhair]

Why do you make false claims. Did I say or suggest a born anew believer is "sinless perfection?" Nope. I said our born anew human spirit has been made "perfect." I cited the verse that said exactly that.

Did I say or suggest we do not think and do "sinful things" as a result of our "Old Man?" Yes, so for you to suggest I did not is yet another false claim.

Van in post #81 you said to Charlie24 "Did you deny we are made spiritually perfect when we are born anew?"

To be made spiritually perfect would require that we not sin. Paul said we still sin and our own lives prove that to be the case.

Perhaps you are confusing God seeing us as righteous even though we are not with spiritually perfect. One is true the other is not.

 

[Van]

Van in post #81 you said to Charlie24 "Did you deny we are made spiritually perfect when we are born anew?"

To be made spiritually perfect would require that we not sin. Paul said we still sin and our own lives prove that to be the case.

Perhaps you are confusing God seeing us as righteous even though we are not with spiritually perfect. One is true the other is not.

Once again, you claim if our human spirits are made perfect means we do not do sinful things. That is yet another falsehood. Please address what I said. You seem to be trying to nullify rather than explain Hebrews 12:23.

 

[Oseas3]

Greetings in Christ JESUS, dear brothers,

Many years ago, (in my Bible that I kept from 1969), I studied Jonah chapter 1 and the Lord opened my eyes to perceive and understand what happens when one of His servant desobey His Word or His divine orders. What really happens? -> Well, the servant of the Lord begins to descend, and descend, descend even to the abyss, or even to the deepest hell, as happened with Jonah. Terrible, very terrible, however, afterwards the Lord, still being merciful to the disobedient servant, snatched him from the abyss, as we can see as follow:

Jonah 1:

1 Now the Word of the Lord came unto Jonah the son of Amittai, saying,
2 Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it; for their wickedness is come up before me.

3 But Jonah rose up to flee unto Tarshish from the presence of the Lord, AND WENT DOWN TO JOPPA; and he found a ship going to Tarshish: so he paid the fare thereof, AND WENT DOWN INTO IT, to go with them unto Tarshish from the presence of the Lord.

4 But the Lord sent out a great wind into the sea, and there was a mighty tempest in the sea, so that the ship was like to be broken.
5 Then the mariners were afraid, and cried every man unto his god, and cast forth the wares that were in the ship into the sea, to lighten it of them.->(As we can see and understand, there was much prejudice to others because of Jonah's disobedience). But Jonah WAS GO DOWN into the sides of the ship; and he lay, and was fast asleep.

6 So the shipmaster came to him, and said unto him, What meanest thou, O sleeper? arise, call upon thy GOD, if so be that GOD will think upon us, that we perish not.
7 And they said every one to his fellow, Come, and let us cast lots, that we may know for whose cause this evil is upon us. So they cast lots, and the lot fell upon Jonah.
8 Then said they unto jonah:
- Tell us, we pray thee, for whose cause this evil is upon us;
- What is thine occupation?
- and whence comest thou?
- what is thy country?
- and of what people art thou?
9 And he said unto them, I am an Hebrew; and I fear the Lord, the GOD of heaven, which hath made the sea and the dry land.

10 Then were the men exceedingly afraid, and said unto him. Why hast thou done this? For the men knew that he fled from the presence of the Lord, because he had told them.

11 Then said they unto Jonah, What shall we do unto thee, that the sea may be calm unto us? for the sea wrought, and was tempestuous.
12 And Jonah said unto them, Take me up, and cast me forth into the sea; so shall the sea be calm unto you: for I know that for my sake this great tempest is upon you.

13 Nevertheless the men rowed hard to bring it to the land; but they could not: for the sea wrought, and was tempestuous against them.->(The scenario above described is something we will see from now on:->Daniel 12:1-3)

14 Wherefore they cried unto the Lord, and said, We beseech thee, O Lord, we beseech thee, let us not perish for this man's life, and lay not upon us innocent blood: for thou, O Lord, hast done as it pleased thee.
15 So they took up Jonah, AND CAST HIM FORTH INTO THE SEA: and the sea ceased from her raging.
16 Then the men feared the Lord exceedingly, and offered a sacrifice unto the Lord, and made vows.

17 Now the Lord had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah (Matthew 12:40). And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.

Jonah 2 -> (From hell Jonah cries out to the Lord).

1 Then Jonah prayed unto the Lord his GOD out of the fish's belly,
2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and He heard me; out of the belly of HELL cried I, and thou heardest my voice.

3 For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas(the abyss, now the current world of the Devil); and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me.

4 Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple.

5 The waters compassed me about->(now, peoples, and nations, and multitudes of all tongues, under dense/thick darkness) even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about y head.
m
6 I WENT DOWN to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O Lord my GOD.-> (John 17:14-19, take a look)
7 When my soul fainted within me I remembered the Lord: and my prayer came in unto thee, into thine holy temple.

8 They that observe lying vanities forsake their own mercy.

9 But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed. Salvation is of the Lord.
10 And the Lord spake unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry land.

Revelation 4:1

After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

May our Lord GOD bless us and keep us, and give us His protection

Amen

Hello from Brazil

Hello, I am Oseas, I’m new here. I’m a Christian for decades, I live in the south of Brazil, near Argentina. English is not my native language, but I will try to do the best I can to be understood. I did find this Christian site and would like to share with the brothers in Christ on my faith in...

purebibleforum.com

 

[Paleouss]

Greetings again Silverhair. What a great day the Lord has made.

If you recall I said they had a head faith not a heart faith.

I don't remember this distinction...it might have been your post I didn't have time to get all the way through. I agree that this kind of distinction can be a valid one (depending upon its use). One issue would be, does one claim that head faith is not salvation but heart faith is salvation? Or any other combination.

With soil #2 we see they believed, not thought about it, but believed. So it indicates to me that they were abiding in Christ.

I agree of soil #2, that it says they "believed" in Mark. I have some doubts that this "believe" equates to "abiding". It seems to me that the word "abide" simply means "remain". Strong's G3306 suggests, "remain, abide....not to depart...to continue to be present...held, kept, continually." I think the common misconception about the term "abide" is that it means something like 'to rest' or 'to settle'. It does have a connotation of 'rest' or 'settle' but it means more..."remain continually".

What I take from this, as it relates to John 15:4-6...
1. "I am the vine, you are the branches"
2. "He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit"

From the above we find Jesus saying that if one "remains" in Him, or is "kept continually" then one will eventually bear fruit. I take this "remain" to have something to do with faith. This concept of 'only if you remain' will you bear fruit can then be applied to the sower parable. In the sower parable, soil #2 (which I'll remind that I think you agreed was not ever saved) was not a soil that "remained". It therefore seems to follow that soil #2 was a branch that...

3. "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered"

So soil #2 had a taste of the divine grace, the light of life to the world. He, although never actually saved, was attached to the vine (which gave light and some life). That light of life was symbolized by the "seed" (the word of God) which sprouted and grew (meaning it sparked life within the darkness that was the mind of the soul); and that soil #2, per the parable, "received it with joy". But it did not "remain" or "abide". Because it did not remain or abide, it never grew and bore fruit and was cast out as a branch.

So the key concept in the Vine and Branch parable, imo, is the term "remain". One must "remain" to bear fruit. I suppose those that forward an Enabling Grace might see it this way. Another key concept would seem to be "being fruitful". What exactly is that besides simply good works that may be deceiving to the outside observer.

If one is abiding in Christ they are saved.

This I agree with. But it appears that we possibly might have differing thoughts on what "abiding" is and is not. You gave a distinction of "head faith" and "heart faith" at one point. For me this distinction, when applied before salvation, means one is not saved yet (head faith), and one is actually saved (heart faith). As a comparable symbolism, outward circumcision (flesh & physical) vs inward circumcision (spiritual & heart).

Since we both had at one time agreed that soil #2 was never saved (soil #3 is the inquiry), soil #2 is the branch that did not "remain" but was in fact, this is the key part, connected to the vine for a short time (through the seed that sparked life to sprout).

If I am to mix more analogies, (1) the seed is sown and gives a spark of life, (2) life is sparked because it is grafted into the vine (for only the Son of God is the light to the world), (3) that graft (the branch) if it "remains" will bare fruit (i.e., be saved), (4) if that graft does not "remain" it will be cast out.

We see this in Hebrews 5:12-14. All can grow but not all will grow.

I agree with what seems to be the overall attempt here. Which is to say that we are told we must have faith to be saved.

I note in referring to soil #2 you said this "was for a short time attached to the vine (when the seed sprouted) but did not "remain" to then become fruitful and saved." That sounds like you think salvation is works based

I do not believe that salvation is works based.

What I have said would apply to soil #3 as well. The text to me is clear that we are speaking of saved individuals again. They are growing but then allow the worries of the world to overcome them and turn away.

My question is why would Jesus speak of three types of unsaved individuals? You are either saved or lost.

I look forward to your reply.

I have in the recent past thought that soil #3 may have been part of the saved also (never thought soil #2 was saved). Never in the loss of salvation sense however. But there has been a movement within me in the other direction.

In regard to your, "why would Jesus speak of three types...". I have started to realize that the parable actually gives 6 examples: (1) Soil 1, Soil 2, Soil 3, Soil 4a, Soil 4b, Soil 4c. Regarding examples 4a,b,c the parable distinguishes by how much fruit they produce. So what the parable has to say about being fruitful, it says with examples 4a,b,c. In other words...

(*) No mention of being fruitful is given to Soil #1,2,3.
(*) #3 does say it grows but "becomes unfruitful". Which can mean it gave fruit and then did not or that it never was fruitful. Both are reasonable readings without looking anywhere but that sentence.
(*) #4 actually gives three examples of giving fruitful. How some are less than others.

Back to your, why? It seems to me that the three types, if they are all never actually saved, gives good insight into how the light of Christ works in every individual. The parable is about God's love for the world and a brief look into the light of life that God brings to the world...if only they would believe not just with their minds but with their hearts. If the Son of God's light is shining within these unsaved in such a way but they eventually refuse Him...then how Great is our God. None are without excuse.

Peace to you my brother in Christ

 

[Silverhair]

Once again, you claim if our human spirits are made perfect means we do not do sinful things. That is yet another falsehood. Please address what I said. You seem to be trying to nullify rather than explain Hebrews 12:23.

Van did you actually read what I posted or just skim it?

This is what I posted "To be made spiritually perfect would require that we not sin. Paul said we still sin and our own lives prove that to be the case."

You are claiming I said the exact opposite of what I said.

 

[Silverhair]

One issue would be, does one claim that head faith is not salvation but heart faith is salvation? Or any other combination.

We can see from the text that even soil #2 the one I would say had head faith, was saved. It says they believed and as God said we are saved by grace throug faith. It does not say you have to have great faith it just says faith.

I agree of soil #2, that it says they "believed" in Mark. I have some doubts that this "believe" equates to "abiding". It seems to me that the word "abide" simply means "remain".

If one abides in Christ does that happen prior to them believing? No it does not. Only believers are in Christ. Even when you use the word "remain" it still requires that the person believes.

From the above we find Jesus saying that if one "remains" in Him, or is "kept continually" then one will eventually bear fruit. I take this "remain" to have something to do with faith. This concept of 'only if you remain' will you bear fruit can then be applied to the sower parable. In the sower parable, soil #2 (which I'll remind that I think you agreed was not ever saved)

Yes John 15:4-6 does say that those that remain will produce fruit but it does not say to what extent. What are the friut of the Spirit? Galatians 5:22-23 tell us.

Even those of head faith can produce that fruit. It was not lack of fruit that cause the soil #2 to fall away is it. It was persecution for the faith they held.

In posts # 72 and # 82 you will see that I do not say they were not saved actually I said they were saved.

They have not developed a deep trust in God. They have what I call a head faith not a heart faith. They know about God but do not know God. post 72

If you recall I said they had a head faith not a heart faith. They had trusted in God for their salvation but they had not matured as Paul would have said. post 82

So soil #2 had a taste of the divine grace, the light of life to the world. He, although never actually saved, was attached to the vine (which gave light and some life).

If someone is attached to the vine, Christ, then it is because they have been saved. If someone has tasted the divine grace it is becaue they have been saved. We are told Christ tasted death for everyone Hebrews 2:9. Did Christ only seem to die?

This I agree with. But it appears that we possibly might have differing thoughts on what "abiding" is and is not.

Complete WordStudy Dictionary explains abide G3306 this way: "Of the relation in which one person or thing stands with another, chiefly in John's writings; thus to remain in or with someone, i.e., to be and remain united with him, one with him in heart, mind, and will; e.g., with en and the dat. of person" 1 John 4:15

Even with head faith they have confessed faith in Christ Jesus. Just as Paul said of the babes in faith.

Since we both had at one time agreed that soil #2 was never saved

Again I have not said such. That is you reading into my words what you want to see.What you may be referring to is that I said some of those in soil #2 may be saved as I am not the one that makes that judgement.

It seems to me that the three types, if they are all never actually saved, gives good insight into how the light of Christ works in every individual.

And here is where we differ. I see soils # 2, 3 and 4 as having been saved.
What I see in them is what we see in the church. We have what I called pew sitters, saved but not involved with in the church soil #2 then we have those that actually get involved with the church but then let life pull them away from God soil #3 and then we have the ones that go deeper in their study and understanding of who God is and what He has done for us soil #4.

We see the stages of growth as we grow in sanctification. Some will but others will not grow as a a result are open to falling away.

 

[Van]

Van did you actually read what I posted or just skim it?

This is what I posted "To be made spiritually perfect would require that we not sin. Paul said we still sin and our own lives prove that to be the case."

You are claiming I said the exact opposite of what I said.

The utter fiction you are proclaiming is if our human spirit has been made perfect, then we could not think and do sinful things. To be "a sin" requires the act (what we, humans, do) and the consequence (God's wrath). Thus our "sinful acts" are NOT sin by definition.

 

[Paleouss]

Greetings Silverhair. Thank you for your witness and contribution to our seeking God in our posts.

My apologies for what appears to be my misunderstanding on your position. My misunderstanding has clearly derailed us from drilling down on the points of the issue that are needed.

I had thought that you had conceded that soil #2 was not saved and the only point of dispute was that of soil #3. Looking back over what you wrote, it appears that you did not concede this soil #2 issue outright as much as I thought you had. However, when we started it appears you weren't all that definitive about soil #2 being saved as you appear to be now, later in our posting.

In post 72 you wrote,

Did Christ know either soil 2 are soil 3? Now with soil 2 I would say questionable.

At the time, this to me was a concession that soil #2 may have been not saved; for if Christ does not know you, you are not saved. This seemed to be pretty cut and dry but apparently its not.

You also wrote regarding soil #3, in comparison to soil #2...

Now we see someone that has actually come to know God as we see that they had been fruitful.

This "has actually come to know God" in reference to soil #3 seemed at the time to imply to me that soil #2 had not actually come to know God because soil #3 had actually come to know God.

You then wrote about soil #2

Did those of soil 2 and soil 3 really believe, were they saved? I think those of the soil #2 if you asked them would say they believed and were saved.

This seemed at the time to imply to me that soil #2 might or might not be save...but...they, themselves, would say they are saved.

And finally for soil #3, comparing it to soil #2, you said...

With soil 3 we can have no doubt that Christ knew them.

So I took that to mean that soil #3 was saved, per your view, but with soil #2 there was doubt.

There is one way I think everyone should approach the parable of the sower no matter how they read it. That is, the parable isn't intended to confuse us by leaving gray spots. Its not intended to give all answer to every question but what it does speak about, I think it intends to be clear about it (without gray or what if this or that). In other words, either soil #2 is an example in every instance we can think of a person that was saved, or it's an example in every instance can think of a person that is not saved.

Regarding your comments on my mixing of the sower and vine parable

If one abides in Christ does that happen prior to them believing? No it does not. Only believers are in Christ. Even when you use the word "remain" it still requires that the person believes.

I think we are missing each other here. Probably because I mixed the parables together to show a spiritual story. Let me try and make it clearer so you can disagree with what I'm actually saying .

First, the parable of the vine and branch never says any branch is saved. You appear to assume that every branch is saved (or I'm perceiving that you are assuming it). But if we actually read just the parable without our presuppositions, should we assume it? Second, the parable never says all the branches "abide" and "remain" it only says that if you don't, you will be cast out and if you do you will be fruitful.

It would seem you assume that "every branch" means (a) every saved person as apposed to (b) every person that hears the word of God. By reading it as (a), I see your line of thought. But what if it is supposed to read like (b)?

(John 15:2 NKJV) 2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every [branch] that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

(a) Every branch in John 15:2 means "every saved person".
(b) Every branch in John 15:2 means "every person that hears the word of God".

So let's pursue (b) for a second and glean possible spiritual truths with the incorporation of the sower parable. The sower parable is in fact a parable about "every person that hears the word of God". The sower is sowing the word of God to every soil, no matter the condition, along the way. That seed, the word of God, brings some semblance of life to every soil except soil #1 (which I would contend had already had a previous opportunity, but I digress).

(i) The seed gives light and life and sprouts (just like the vine gives light and life to every branch)
(ii) The sprout grows to a plant (just like the sprouting and growing of the branch on the vine)
(iii) The soil's plant falls away and is not fruitful (just like the branch is cast out because it is not fruitful)

In this comparison of parables, the only difference seems to be the perspective. One is from those being given a glimpse of light and life and the other is from the giver of that light and life.

Now, I would understand completely if a Calvinist objected to this possible reading. Simply because many deny a spiritual milk being given to the natural man or any situation in which a man is given some light and does not accept it.

If someone is attached to the vine, Christ, then it is because they have been saved. If someone has tasted the divine grace it is becaue they have been saved. We are told Christ tasted death for everyone Hebrews 2:9. Did Christ only seem to die?

I'm unclear of your point here. As I said above, it seems to be an assumption of the parable that if attached then by definition the branch is saved. I think it is clear that if attached and baring fruit, that one is saved. But the parable doesn't say that all branches at one time bore fruit. I also find that your assumption, "if someone tasted of the divine grace it is because they have been saved" to be something not even John Calvin believed (per below).

But I cannot admit that all this is any reason why he should not grant the reprobate also some taste of his grace, why he should not irradiate their minds with some sparks of his light, why he should not give them some perception of his goodness, and in some sort engrave his word on their hearts. Otherwise, where would be the temporal faith mentioned by Mark 4:17 ? There is therefore some knowledge even in the reprobate, which afterwards vanishes away, either because it did not strike roots sufficiently deep, or because it withers, being choked up. (Calvin Commentaries Hebrews 6:4)

You then wrote...

Even with head faith they have confessed faith in Christ Jesus. Just as Paul said of the babes in faith.

We clearly have different definitions of "head faith" and "heart faith". If one only has head faith, in my estimation, then that person is not and has never been saved. For only from the heart does one believe unto righteousness (Rom 10:10). Can you give me some verses that show this distinction that I might study that head faith alone without heart faith leads to salvation?

And here is where we differ. I see soils # 2, 3 and 4 as having been saved.
What I see in them is what we see in the church. We have what I called pew sitters, saved but not involved with in the church soil #2 then we have those that actually get involved with the church but then let life pull them away from God soil #3 and then we have the ones that go deeper in their study and understanding of who God is and what He has done for us soil #4.

It would appear so, that is, that we differ here. Not in your practical examples, I agree that the the soils are example of these. I just don't see soil #1,2,3 as saved yet since it never actually says they were fruitful. It definitely doesn't ever say any of them are saved, not even soil #4. We only assume soil #4 is saved because it claims it explicitly to be fruitful. Using the same standard in our assumption of #4, none of the other soil examples qualify.

Great conversation Silverhair.

As an edit: I was wondering if we have different definitions of what "saved" means.

Blessed are we in our Lord Jesus Christ

 

[Silverhair]

The utter fiction you are proclaiming is if our human spirit has been made perfect, then we could not think and do sinful things. To be "a sin" requires the act (what we, humans, do) and the consequence (God's wrath). Thus our "sinful acts" are NOT sin by definition.

This is what I posted "To be made spiritually perfect would require that we not sin. Paul said we still sin and our own lives prove that to be the case."

Again Van this is what I wrote and you continue to reverse what I said. To be blunt you are lying.

Is this what we should expect from you going forward?

 

[37818]

Joh 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them out of My hand.

Your view does not fit the text 37.

No one snatch them but it does not mean that the person cannot walk away. People can turn away from the faith they had and repudiate God.

How is my view not fit said text? Please explain. John 10:28.

 

[Van]

This is what I posted "To be made spiritually perfect would require that we not sin. Paul said we still sin and our own lives prove that to be the case."

Again Van this is what I wrote and you continue to reverse what I said. To be blunt you are lying.

Is this what we should expect from you going forward?

Yet another dogmatic repost, rather than addressing:

The utter fiction you are proclaiming is if our human spirit has been made perfect, then we could not think and do sinful things. To be "a sin" requires the act (what we, humans, do) and the consequence (God's wrath). Thus our "sinful acts" are NOT sin by definition.​

​

 

[Van]

Why must our human spirit, if we have been born anew as a child of God have been made perfect?

When we were "born anew" we were undergoing the washing of regeneration (being made alive from a spiritually dead state). God is Holy and those who "sin" are unholy. If our human spirit was "unholy" it could not be "together with Christ."
But having been perfected our human spirit can be made alive, and is no longer separated from God. Our human spirit is in Christ and Christ indwells our human spirit.

But we are comprised of our "inner person" (our human spirit with its core attributes or soul) and out outer person, our physical body which of course is still sinful, even after we have been spiritually born anew.

 

[Silverhair]

I think we are missing each other here.

I agree we seem to be speaking past each other.

When I said re soil; #2 that salvation was questionable I meant that we could not judge whether they were or were not saved based on what we would see. But God does not judge as we do. The text says they believed and I take that at face value. Compare this to Acts 13:48 or Eph 1:13

I would say that Act 16:30-31 removes any doubt as too whether soil #2 was actually saved
Act 16:30 ... “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
Act 16:31 ...“Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved,...

That for me clears up any confussion. Those that believe are saved, we may not see any fruit in them but thankfully we are not the judge.

I note that in John 15:2 you have focused on "every branch" whereas I have my focus on "In Me". The only way to be in Christ is through faith. And we see in soil #2 that it says "those who hear the word and receive it with joy" and "They believe for a season". We are further told that they fell away. How do you fall away from a position that you have never held?

I read your comparision and from either perspective, giver or given, it still comes down to the only way for the branch to live and grow even for a short time is if they are attached to the vine, Jesus. John 15:5

I am curious as to why you would assume that one can be attached to {"in me" John 15:2} Christ and not be saved? Do you know of any verse that says we are so without being saved?

I would not be using calvin as support. He was attempting to deal with those "chosen" ones that later turned away from the faith that under calvinism they were determined to have had. His so called Evanescent faith.

What we do know is that soil #1 had not believed vs 12. We also know that soil #2 did believe vs 13. We can conclude that soils #3 did believe as we are told his faith did not mature and we see that soil #4 believed because they produced a crop.

You call my view an assumption but the assumption is yours that soils 1-3 were never saved dispite the clear text that shows they were.


PS

I am not sure how someone could have a different understanding of what biblical "saved" through faith in God actually means?

Joh 3:17 "For G1063 God G2316 did not G3756 send G649 (G5656) His G846 Son G5207 into G1519 the world G2889 to G2443 condemn G2919 (G5725) the world G2889, but G235 that G2443 the world G2889 through G1223 Him G846 might be saved G4982 (G5686).

Act 16:31 So G1161 they said G2036 (G5627), "Believe G4100 (G5657) on G1909 the Lord G2962 Jesus G2424 Christ G5547 , and G2532 you G4771 will be saved G4982 (G5701), you and G2532 your G4675 household G3624."

The following is from the Complete WordStudy Dictionary G4982

(III) Specifically of salvation from eternal death, sin, and the punishment and misery consequent to sin. To save, and (by implication), to give eternal life. Especially of Christ as the Savior, followed by apó (G575), with the gen. (Mat_1:21; Act_2:40; Rom_5:9). Of the Lord, to bring someone safely into His kingdom (2Ti_4:18). Generally (Mat_18:11, "For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost"; Rom_11:14; 1Co_1:21; 1Ti_4:16; Heb_7:25; Jas_1:21). With ek (G1537), out of or from death (thanátou, the gen. of thánatos [G2288]; Jas_5:20). In the pass. (Mat_10:22, "he . . . shall be saved"; Mat_19:25; Mat_24:13; Mar_10:26; Mar_13:13; Mar_16:16; Luk_8:12; Luk_13:23; Joh_5:34; Joh_10:9; Rom_5:10; 1Co_5:5; 1Ti_2:15). Hence as a part., hoi sōzómenoi, those being saved, those who have obtained salvation through Christ and are kept by Him (Act_2:47; 1Co_1:18; 2Co_2:15; Rev_21:24).

(IV) The basic meaning of the verb sṓzō is to rescue from peril, to protect, keep alive. Sṓzō involves the preservation of life, either physical or spiritual. Whenever the word sṓzō and its deriv. such as sōtēría (G4991), salvation, sōtḗr (G4990), savior, and the adj. sōtḗrion (G4992), salvation, are used, the context must be considered to determine whether the preservation of physical life (deliverance from physical death, sickness or peril) or spiritual life (deliverance from sin, Satan and hell) is in view.

(V) Salvation of the soul is deliverance from death unto life through Christ (Joh_6:56; Joh_14:20; Rom_16:7, Rom_16:11; 1Co_1:30; 1Co_9:1-2; 2Co_5:17; Eph_2:13) The believing sinner receives the spiritual life of a new nature from God (2Pe_1:4) and is freed from the power of sin (spiritual death) while having to endure its presence until the resurrection. Deliverance of the body will occur at the resurrection when a entire creation will also be renovated (Rom_8:21-23).

 

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[Oseas3]

Matthew 12:18-21

18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.

19 He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets.

20 A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth Judgment unto victory.

Revelation 11;15-18
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Revelation 12:7-12

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Be prepared or else get ready - > Matthew 25:6-10

 

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